Azherae wrote: » Knowing your flow, it won't matter, I will hope for just the usual dismissive 'lmao' equivalent.
Dygz wrote: » Azherae wrote: » If a Rogue's Active Skills are evades and smokebombs and similar, and a party is marching through an open area with strong enemies, fighting for exp, and the Tank is doing a good job at tanking and therefore holding attention all of the time... what did you need the Rogue for? If they 'didn't take Backstab' and 'didn't take heavy Bleed related skills' and let's say the enemy is spiders or anything with so much health or so relatively 'little' health that poison/attrition skills, even if taken, don't matter. The Tank is supposed to hold attention so that the Rogue can gain extra burst damage via flanking and backstabs and Bleeds. We will have to look at the Rogue Active Skill tree to know how many Active Skills don't also apply burst damage or a Bleed. Similar to the Tank Active Skills - most of them generate Threat or provide Damage Mitigation. As with Cleric, many of the Active Skills Heal and deal damage or deal damage and also Heal.
Azherae wrote: » If a Rogue's Active Skills are evades and smokebombs and similar, and a party is marching through an open area with strong enemies, fighting for exp, and the Tank is doing a good job at tanking and therefore holding attention all of the time... what did you need the Rogue for? If they 'didn't take Backstab' and 'didn't take heavy Bleed related skills' and let's say the enemy is spiders or anything with so much health or so relatively 'little' health that poison/attrition skills, even if taken, don't matter.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » What he is saying is why would the rogue ever take evasion or smokebomb style abilities if the tank is doing his job. All those skills are useless in the dungeon
Neurath wrote: » SirChancelot11 wrote: » What he is saying is why would the rogue ever take evasion or smokebomb style abilities if the tank is doing his job. All those skills are useless in the dungeon Most of the boss areas will be open world. Evasion and stealth will be useful in PvP. You could face PvP anywhere and its difficult to say whether the rogue would be gimped without evasion and stealth because we haven't seen the Rogue breakdown yet.
Azherae wrote: » What I'm saying is 'there's the potential that the developer working on the Rogue breakdown might not think about this either'.
Azherae wrote: » And then you get some set of people that goes 'Rogue is for damage, just put everything into damage, who needs evasion and smokebombs while leveling? Just re-spec later'.
Azherae wrote: » And some set of people that goes 'you noob, why did you put more points in smokebomb and evasion before level 40? Don't come into my exp party with that garbage'.
Neurath wrote: » All I want is a Rogue which is not backstab related. I don't like backstab builds. I will accept backstabs if they are required, but, if backstab is the main damage the gameplay will suck. I still believe we don't know enough to claim whether evasion and stealth will be required. In my mind, stealth and evasion often go hand-in-hand in a rogue's repertoire. There will be options to create a personalised Rogue though, so, I'm not too concerned at the current disposition. I've used the stealth in Apoc and its better at range than up-close. Not even sure how effective stealth will be in the MMO.
Neurath wrote: » I theory crafted a lot and determined that with the current stats available, one can't min/max a toon effectively. Of course, the stats could change. So, not knowing what type of skills a Bard has, knowing what skills the Mage currently has and knowing that weapon skill trees will be added, i came to the conclusion that a straight up physical damage dealer would be the best min/max choice. I settled on Rogue because I played Rogue in Age of Conan and in Guild Wars 2 (Older build). Also, I believe a Bard even when coupled with Mage could not perform as well as a Rogue in Bounty Hunting. In my mind, I would link Poisons, Bleeds and executors for the main damage. It would be a cross between the Guild Wars 2 Assassin and the Age of Conan Assassin. Though backstab could be an execution ability, I would prefer stuff like Artery Slash or Neck Slash or Lotus Bomb...something other than backstab.
Azherae wrote: » Ah yes, that can of worms has not yet been opened. Quite frankly I believe their choices of stats are wrong, at this time. I can get behind a lot of different systems, but the current setup screams 'I haven't thought this one through fully yet'. I'm sorry to hear that you weren't able to build your Magician, genuinely. I'll kick up a fuss about it if you want, when the time comes, assuming you didn't find the Bard Compilation concept schema unappealing too. I wouldn't have too much faith in Rogue being more effective with the current stats, it'd either be so overpowered that it would get nerfed (it always gets nerfed. Always), or kind of meh.
Neurath wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Ah yes, that can of worms has not yet been opened. Quite frankly I believe their choices of stats are wrong, at this time. I can get behind a lot of different systems, but the current setup screams 'I haven't thought this one through fully yet'. I'm sorry to hear that you weren't able to build your Magician, genuinely. I'll kick up a fuss about it if you want, when the time comes, assuming you didn't find the Bard Compilation concept schema unappealing too. I wouldn't have too much faith in Rogue being more effective with the current stats, it'd either be so overpowered that it would get nerfed (it always gets nerfed. Always), or kind of meh. The reason it often gets nerfed is because of perma stealth and backstab combo. In Ashes there might not be perma stealth and there might not be a backstab. I think the Rogue will be very susceptible to the Tank because the Tank will have high physical resistance (one would hope) and a lot of hard CCs. The Rogue should also have a hard counter (Could even be the Tank) if the devs haven't dropped the hard counter proposals.
Azherae wrote: » That's one type of nerf they suffer. I'm more used to the other one, where the game is built from the beginning without the Backstab being super strong, and then Rogues get other stuff to make up for it. But then, what do you base the stats for the other stuff on? You have to let it scale by some stat. Then it becomes a trap. Rogues that don't build for that stat don't do enough damage, or they are allowed to do enough damage and those who do build for it do ridiculous damage. Final result is almost always 'well ok let's take off the scaling so that the Rogues who don't want to build for that stat, do enough damage comparably and don't get mistreated for build mistakes'. And then Rogue is meh for another 2-3 years until someone re-tunes all the daggers or whatever the most powerful main weapon they can use, is. Just my experience.
Neurath wrote: » Azherae wrote: » That's one type of nerf they suffer. I'm more used to the other one, where the game is built from the beginning without the Backstab being super strong, and then Rogues get other stuff to make up for it. But then, what do you base the stats for the other stuff on? You have to let it scale by some stat. Then it becomes a trap. Rogues that don't build for that stat don't do enough damage, or they are allowed to do enough damage and those who do build for it do ridiculous damage. Final result is almost always 'well ok let's take off the scaling so that the Rogues who don't want to build for that stat, do enough damage comparably and don't get mistreated for build mistakes'. And then Rogue is meh for another 2-3 years until someone re-tunes all the daggers or whatever the most powerful main weapon they can use, is. Just my experience. The problem will be a widespread issue because you can't build a Physical Damage Build of any type without boosting Physical Damage input through 'Power'. None of the physical damage builds can survive without 'Power'. You could unhook all the physical damage classes from 'Power' and then split them up into individual stats, but, the problem would then transfer to the individual stats and nerfs could still happen. I have other issues with the base game, but, I often don't feel like a discussion about them. 'Power' affects both Crit Damage and Basic Damage. You can see how vital 'power' would be for any physical damage dealer. If I wanted to build a Glass Cannon I could go 'Power' and 'Will' however, I don't want to play glass cannon and I don't want to be forced to do 'Power' and 'Will' so a hybrid build is out of the question for me.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » @Dygz I just really hope the game isn't as black and white as you say. If it is what your interpretation of everything is, then I see this game game getting locked into meta builds in no time and half of the options of 'player choice' will be written off in no time.
Ironhope wrote: » bloodprophet wrote: » Not you Ironhope keeps throwing it around. How did I throw what around? You're the one (one of the people) throwing it from game development to personal attacks all the time? Accusations which, of course, when asked to support, you fail to. bloodprophet wrote: » As to the first point they devs have a vision let them fill it. Then why did they open an early Alpha forum and explicitly ask us to say how we would like things to be? Why didn't they open a late Alpha or Beta forum?
bloodprophet wrote: » Not you Ironhope keeps throwing it around.
bloodprophet wrote: » As to the first point they devs have a vision let them fill it.
Dygz wrote: » Azherae wrote: » The opposite situation happens with a DPS Cleric, and I mean full 'mace swinging Templar who basically just heals as an incidental thing'. You've certainly met one now, potentially. How many direct healing abilities does this Templar 'have to take' before they are 'what is expected in the Cleric slot'? Are they supposed to be in a DPS slot instead? But that would mean 2x Cleric and -1 of something else. But let's be 'generous' and remove our 'no backstabs, evasion-master Rogue' since they were going to do about as much damage as this DPS Cleric anyway. I don't really understand what you mean by a DPS Cleric who basically heals as an incidental thing. The primary role of a Cleric is Support. DPS would be a secondary role. So, we should be expecting any Cleric/x to be primarily providing Support and secondarily providing Damage. If what a person wants to do is primarily deal Damage and incidentally Heal, they should choose a Primary Archetype whose primary role is Damage and, perhaps, Cleric as their Secondary Archetype. If I were to group with such a person as you describe, I would try to have some x/Clerics who focus on Life augments along to compensate.
Azherae wrote: » The opposite situation happens with a DPS Cleric, and I mean full 'mace swinging Templar who basically just heals as an incidental thing'. You've certainly met one now, potentially. How many direct healing abilities does this Templar 'have to take' before they are 'what is expected in the Cleric slot'? Are they supposed to be in a DPS slot instead? But that would mean 2x Cleric and -1 of something else. But let's be 'generous' and remove our 'no backstabs, evasion-master Rogue' since they were going to do about as much damage as this DPS Cleric anyway.
Dygz wrote: » SirChancelot11 wrote: » What he is saying is why would the rogue ever take evasion or smokebomb style abilities if the tank is doing his job. All those skills are useless in the dungeon Why would they be useless in a dungeon? You take those skills because it's an RPG and that's the way you like to play your Rogue. You seem to be saying, "why not just play the meta?" It's an RPG. You don't have to play the meta. Tank doing their job does not mean the Rogue never gets hit by anything. What bonuses do Smokebomb give to Damage? Does Smokebomb also add Snares that can stack with the Ranger and Mage Snares? Again, we would have to know how the Rogue Active Skills actually work to weigh in any meaningful way. What happens if another group comes in to contend the encounter? Smokebombs and Invisibility might come in handy.
Dygz wrote: » take those skills because it's an RPG and that's the way you like to play your Rogue.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » DPS cleric. So we are allowed to go wide or deep with our skill selection the cleric activated abilities right. I can either upgrade certain skills a lot or unlock every skill a cleric has available. I choose to unlock and upgrade all of my damage oriented cleric abilities. And put zero effort into unlocking or upgrading anything related to healing. I'm going to wear probably mage gear I guess for maximum magic damage.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » Smoke bombs could be useful especially if they synergize with Shadow damage and the like you said there a minute ago. Look at you thinking outside the box now... So proud 😁
SirChancelot11 wrote: » What it would still come down to is the same argument as no one would ever need to take and X/tank class. If the tank is doing his job properly no one would need the extra durability. You can follow up with "what if there is some boss that also required you to tank mobs and you need an offtank?" Well if x/tanks aren't as good as tank/x at tanking, and I need a second tank for some content why wouldn't I just get a second tank to tank those adds, that way it's not a gamble.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » If a rogue using a shadow tree That uses smoke bombs and stuff doesn't do as much damage but has good utility (I'm just guessing here) he isn't going to be doing as much as he could. And that isn't just saying that he's not following a meta that's just him not doing his job.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » Unless you think there's going to be some leeway with this and me not doing my optimal damage? are we as a group still going to be able to clear content for meaningful progression if I just take those skills because it's an RPG and that's the way I like to play your Rogue. Will I still be able to succeed at the game?
Dygz wrote: » SirChancelot11 wrote: » Unless you think there's going to be some leeway with this and me not doing my optimal damage? are we as a group still going to be able to clear content for meaningful progression if I just take those skills because it's an RPG and that's the way I like to play your Rogue. Will I still be able to succeed at the game? I think that, similar to the Cleric skills we've seen so far, most of the Rogue Active Skills will do whatever they do and also deal Damage - probably Shadow damage and/or Bleeds. Again, if I were to group with a Rogue who is trying to avoid the primary role a Rogue (Damage), I would try to bring along some x/Rogues with a focus on Damage augments in order to compensate.
Dygz wrote: » Again, it's like card games. You don't have to have the best hand, you have to know how to synergize with your partner(s). It's more about synergizing with the group than optimizing the individual build.
Azherae wrote: » Thank you @Dygz. That precisely fulfills my requirement in every way. What I'm about to say may be ... 'offensive' to you by certain standards (I don't know for sure) so I put it in tags in case you prefer to read it at a time when you are less likely to perceive it as an attack on you, just in case that helps.I asked this because you are my litmus test for something. I don't like your designs, or your ideas. I'd never be willing to play a game you made, and that's fine. But there are a lot of things you support, believe, or such, that I would never have thought possible. That I consider obviously contradictory or in defiance of formal and informal logic. I do not mean to disrespect your position by saying this (any more than is unavoidable by saying I consider you illogical). It can just as easily be my failing. But what it gives me is insight. It is always possible that there is a designer, somewhere, perhaps even at Intrepid, who is able to hold the exact same mindsets as you, and justify things I would think of as failures in logic in the exact same ways you do. And that would mean that Ashes has the potential to be developed with this (in my mind) lack of internal logic. So it's concerning. It fosters 'fear' as you have pointed out multiple times. Yes. I outright fear the concept of a game developed by someone with your ability to bypass things I consider logical. Now, this is obviously no big deal, I don't have to play it, but I started without this insight. I saw what Intrepid offered, and I followed my own logic. Only through you, have I been offered this looking-glass into a world that I can fear. The illumination of my ignorance. It is possible that Ashes will be designed from the mindset that you use to speak, and so, I cringe, and I doubt, and I consider my options. Because whether you are right or wrong to hold the perspectives you do, you are the reminder. Caveat emptor. Knowing your flow, it won't matter, I will hope for just the usual dismissive 'lmao' equivalent.
Dygz wrote: » Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."
