Don't make the same mistake WoW did with its hybrid classes. Dont wait 3 years to learn this lesson.

Basically for the entire duration of vanilla wow, hybrid classes such as retribution paladin, feral druid, dps shaman, etc were at best memes but never actually functional, never actually viable for anything.

If someone wants to be a hybrid dps-healer you shouldn't give him half the damage a full dps does. Thats just bad design, nobody will want to play that.

What you should do (let's compare an assassin and a templar) is this:

Both should deal good damage. Sure give the full dps a slight edge.
The rest of the templar's performance should come from healing, buffs and resilience, which are his classe's theme.
The rest of the assassin's performance should come from his stealth, high mobility and crowd control, which are his classe's theme.

Don't make hybrid classes memes and jacks of all trade, in practice, they will end up being only disappointments.

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Dygz

beaushinkle wrote: »

Do you think that effectiveness determines how much weight you can pull or not?

You should be able to read what was written and properly comprehend my response.
The question you are now asking is not the same thing as the statement that I responded to.

beaushinkle wrote: »

What makes it false? What makes the resulting data irrelevant?

I already explained that to you.

beaushinkle

Dygz wrote: »

You should be able to read what was written and properly comprehend my response.
The question you are now asking is not the same thing as the statement that I responded to.

Call it a personal failing then on my end, if that helps. Regardless, do you think that effectiveness determines how much weight you can pull?

Dygz wrote: »

I already explained that to you.

Can you point me to where you think you did this?

Dygz

I said what I said.

beaushinkle

JustVine

Hey @Dygz just to clarify something. You still think that secondary class augments don't/shouldn't shift you towards your secondary's role on the triangle right?

Dygz

I never said they don't and shouldn't shift you closer. The whole point is that they do shift you closer to the secondary role.
What I said is that primary role and secondary role don't swap. Secondary role remains secondary.

JustVine

Dygz wrote: »

I never said they don't and shouldn't shift you closer. The whole point is that they do shift you closer to the secondary role.
What I said is that primary role and secondary role don't swap. Secondary role remains secondary.

Alright cool thank you. And you also still believe a secondary role shouldn't do more than support the person playing the main of your secondary or enhancing your own role in a full group of 1 of each? Like if the game had a way to do this by investing their entire build gear etc, it wouldn't be meeting the goal of what you think the design is/should be?

Dygz

I'm not sure I even understand what you were trying to convey.
If I do understand what you wrote correctly...

What I've said is don't expect that an x/Cleric should be able to replace the need for a Cleric/x in an 8-person group because the devs are designing and balancing encounters with the expectation they will require one of each Primary Archetype. Steven has specifically stated that Secondary Archetype Cleric will not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Cleric in an 8-person group.
He has said something similar about Primary Archetype Tanks.

If you can find a build that is an exception - great!
It's probably not impossible, but expect that to be fairly rare, rather than common.
The devs are designing with the intention to ensure that all Primary Archetype/x are viable - even in a max level dungeon or raid.
The devs are not trying to ensure that any x/Primary Archetype can fulfill the primary role.

When someone says, "Summoner should be able to main tank in an 8-person group."
My response is, "That's unlikely because the devs are designing for an 8-person group to require one of each Primary Archetype and if a Summoner can, in general, use their tank-oriented Summon to main tank as well or better than Primary Archetype Tank, that means there is no need for one of every Primary Archetype in an 8-person group."

But, none of this is binary. In the sense that if an x/Tank can't main tank in an 8-person group, it's useless.
Expect a Summoner's tank-oriented Summon to tank fairly well - even if it can't out-tank a Primary Archetype Tank in an 8-person group. Brood Warden is the most likely candidate to be able to main tank in an 8-person group.
Try it. See if it's possible to out main tank the Tank/x. But not with the expectation that it SHOULD be possible. Rather with the expectation that it MIGHT be possible.

(I don't know how many x/Clerics it would take to compensate for a missing Cleric/x, but it's probably more than one.)

JustVine

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not sure I even understand what you were trying to convey.
If I do understand what you wrote correctly...

What I've said is don't expect an x/Cleric to be able to replace the need for a Cleric/x in an 8-person group because the devs are designing and balancing encounters with the expectation they will need one of each Primary Archetype. Steven has specifically stated that Secondary Archetype Cleric will not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Cleric in an 8-person group.
He has said something similar about Tanks.

If you can find a build that is an exception - great!
It's probably not impossible, but expect that to be fairly rare, rather than common.
The devs are designing with the intention to ensure that all Primary Archetype/x are viable - even in a max level dungeon or raid.
The devs are not trying to ensure that any x/Primary Archetype can fulfill the primary role.

When someone says, "Summoner should be able to main tank in an 8-person group."
My response is, "That's unlikely because the devs are designing for an 8-person group to require one of each Primary Archetype and if a Summoner can, in general, use their tank-oriented Summon to main tank as well or better than Primary Archetype Tank, that means there is no need for one of every Primary Archetype in an 8-person group."

But, none of this is binary.
Expect a Summoner's tank-oriented Summon to tank fairly well - even if it can't out-tank a Primary Archetype Tank in an 8-person group. Brood Warden is the most likely candidate to be able to main tank in an 8-person group.
Try it. See if it's possible to out main tank the Tank/x. But not with the expectation that it SHOULD be possible. Rather with the expectation that it MIGHT be possible.

Ok now, here is my real question since it sounds like I am not misreading you. What would the purpose of an emnity augment school for /tank be in your mind? What is the goal of a person who's role is not to be able to be 'as good as a real' tank here in taking it if it exists?

Dygz

I don't understand that question at all.
Is there an Enmity augment School? Is that what I call the Threat School?
"A person who's role is not to be able to be 'as good as a real' tank"??? That right there is absurd gobbledy-gook.

An x/Tank would use a Threat augment when they want to generate Threat and have an opponent focus on them rather than on other people in the group.

JustVine

Dygz wrote: »

I don't understand that question at all.
Is there an Enmity augment School? Is that what I call the Threat School?
"A person who's role is not to be able to be 'as good as a real' tank"??? That right there is absurd gobbledy-gook.

Yes the 'threat school' as in 'if I put this on a move I generate more threat to get high up on the enemies threat list.'

Well it's lack of clarity is from having to walk through all your logical restrictions on 'What is correct' without leading you down the wrong line of inquiry. I will take that as an indication that I would fail to convey my questions properly. Please ignore it entirely therefore.

Dygz

I mean - it seems like you're trying to lead me down the wrong line of inquiry.
You aren't mirroring what I've actually said.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

I mean - it seems like you're trying to lead me down the wrong line of inquiry.
You aren't mirroring what I've actually said.

That was... an incredibly revelatory two lines.

@JustVine I'm treating this as absolute confirmation of 'that theory' now.

beaushinkle

Dygz wrote: »

...the devs are designing and balancing encounters with the expectation they will require one of each Primary Archetype.

Do you have a dev quote on this?

Dygz

I have a bunch. Several of which I've already shared.

SirChancelot

Dygz wrote: »

I don't understand that question at all.
Is there an Enmity augment School? Is that what I call the Threat School?
"A person who's role is not to be able to be 'as good as a real' tank"??? That right there is absurd gobbledy-gook.

An x/Tank would use a Threat augment when they want to generate Threat and have an opponent focus on them rather than on other people in the group.

Basically he's asking why would I want to generate threat/enmity/aggro if I'm not the group's tank.

Sure it would be nice to have someone be "off tank" so if the tank drops the ball they're there to pick up immediately. But skill points are limited why would I want to put skill points into something that is for the event of failure. I don't want to have to build for just in case scenarios I want to focus on my primary role.

Dygz

What we want the Fighter to do is to be able to cut through enemy lines, get to the support area of a raid perhaps and take out healers with some quick DPS burst damage. We want them to be masters of different weapons. We want them to be able to be versatile in whether or not they want to be a ranged fighter or melee one. It's going to be up to the player.
–- Steven Sharif

In PvE, the Fighter/Tank might choose to take out the NPC Clerics by using Threat augments to focus the NPC Healers on her/himself.
In PvP, the Fighter/Tank might choose to take out the PC Mages by using Damage Mitigation augments to soak the Mages' burst damage.

Secondary role is secondary. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

That really has nothing to do with the Tank/x dropping the ball or just in case scenarios.
If you don't want to build an x/Tank, don't. Threat augments are augments to your Active Skills - so you are inherently focused on your primary role via Active Skills. The Threat augments are just extra.

SirChancelot

What's the tank/x doing then if the fighter/tank is doing all of that?

Songcaller

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

What's the tank/x doing then if the fighter/tank is doing all of that?

One would hope the adds are substantial which means one tank can't tank boss and adds at the same time. If the main tank can tank the boss and the adds at the same time its bad raid design. Either the adds are ridiculous or the boss is ridiculous in such a circumstance.

Edit: Spelling mistakes.

SirChancelot

Neurath wrote: »

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

What's the tank/x doing then if the fighter/tank is doing all of that?

One would hope the adds are substantial which means one tank can't tank boss and adds at the same time. If the main tank can tank the boss and the adds at the same time its bad raid design. Either the adds are ridiculous or the boss is ridiculous in such a circumstance.

Edit: Spelling mistakes.

Is this a boss scenario, it sounded like he was talking about packs of mobs

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