Min max players!

This is for the min max players! What class/augment are you going to go? What weapons would you go for? What stats will you specifically go for. What is the purpose of your character?

Btw this is just theory crafting. You can express all your ideas on what your ideal character is even if some of those aspects won’t be in the game.

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maouw

Percimes wrote: »

I think I'll max-mining one of my characters, as opposed to min-maxing one. Worst, gimpiest or oddest race/class/augments combo possible. Just to show 'em!

Not sure what it should be. Any suggestions?

Bleed augments with no bleed abilities

NAH

but I want to see a tank bowman

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

Are you familiar with the concept of 'frame data'?

Yes.

Azherae

Aight, stop me when I cross a point that you have a hard disagreement with.

In a game where balance on the damage front is not built to be completely ridiculous, the character with the best frame data advantage on average, wins, if you subtract any single outlier from their frame data interactions.

So first thing, what does 'balance on the damage front not being ridiculous' mean. It means that if the opponent stands there and does nothing, and both characters wear the same or appropriate level armor, that Fighters don't kill twice as fast as Tanks. This is, again, assuming 'both sides just go all out on their offense'.

It's explicitly around 'twice as fast'. Most people won't argue if a Fighter kills even up to 50% faster than a Tank because if they were dueling properly, the tank would mitigate some amount of the Fighter's damage. This isn't part of the min-maxing, this is a prior. This means you can argue with it if you want, it's 'rejecting a prior', and would just be 'a valid explanation of why you don't understand'. But of course, note that there's a difference between 'this is not true' and 'this might not be true.

Next, what does it mean to have Frame Advantage in a Split Body Combat MMO? First one measures the distance at which two characters would fight. Then you measure the time required for a player to strafe from 'directly in front of an opponent' to '45 degrees off' in frames, at that range. For Ashes right now this number is 118-ish, but of course, what it is now doesn't matter. What it is in Beta-2 will matter, which is our point of discussion. That's when min-maxers would be doing their work.

The faster a character can turn to track this opponent, the more likely the opponent is to be hit. Any time you attempt to strafe and your strafe does not result in you evading, you have wasted the frames spent evading and should have spent them trying to get into position to hit.

Except that for Rangers, in fact, any bow using class with a backward movement ability, evading can be done backwards, and not only will this help them evade melee classes, it also will increase their frame advantage, because the further back you are from your opponent, the further they have to move to get out of the 45 degree angle (this amount is arbitrary btw, but it's good to have a baseline for certain other abilities relative to hurtboxes, at close range, the real amount is 'whatever it takes to dodge something like a mage's fireball or a downslam or a small ground AoE).

So the Ranger uses a backward movement, and they lose the frames it took to execute that, from their damage, but they gain damage because the opponent functionally doesn't evade without losing their own Frame Advantage. So Rangers 'always have positive Frame Advantage' when retreating. Anything that makes this retreat more effective, faster, or more likely to succeed, increases this (hence, Scion, as example, but it could be anything).

Now this could easily be countered by gap-closers and other ranged weapon users. But Scions probably also do the most damage at range, right? Their shots are line of sight and can be led or predicted, unlike a Mage who telegraphs things and might be dodged by the Ranger. The mage might be best if it somehow uses less energy than the Ranger, and then Mages would be the best, because we can calculate that from the Frame Advantage (Mages basically being able to force other people to enter Frame Disadvantage in order to dodge their attacks - note, only if the Mage class is designed for PvP).

Rangers and Mages almost always have 'high tier' status in PvE also. Not solo, just 'I have big damage and someone else is taking the hits'. The easier Tanking is in the game, the more likely this is true even if their damage isn't as high as melee because Melee are in AoE range and properly positioned Rangers and Mages are not. Add a multiplier for if it's safer for the Bard to buff the backline DDs. If enemies have elemental weaknesses, Scions edge out here too. Just max single target damage from range. This is the basic version. Is this how it would work? Not necessarily, but the enemy design required such that a Scion is not the favored DD for a party goes against Ashes' design vision so far. This doesn't matter. You can 'look at the design' when it's in Beta and calculate 'how much is elemental damage bonus going to help on the average PvE leveling target?' and 'how much does PvE leveling need to avoid AoE?' For raiding, it's almost always good, but there are ways for it to not be.

So that's a metric for calculating PvP advantage, I believe it favors Scions but it doesn't matter if that's right, just plug in the numbers according to the combat design.
And a much easier one for PvE advantage, I believe also favors Scions but you can put in the 'values' for the PvE and Boss combat design.
Node Sieges and so on, Scions are the hit and run long range sniper support, and those characters are almost always heavy hitters in those situations that worry only about one counter, whereas almost every other class would worry about two or more counters.

That's page one.

Dygz

Rangers and Mages are Archetypes; not classes.
You can look at the design to min/max when we are in Beta because we're supposed to have augments in Alpha 2.
I agree that by Beta-2 people will have enough data to meaningfully min/max.
You didn't even need one page or frame data at all to get us there.

Tragnar

aoc archetypes are the stereotypical classes and aoc classes are the stereotypical class specs - they didnt change that much except that all classes share directions that their base gameplay can be pivoted

and you dont need augments to setup base comparisons between available classes and their approach to gameplay

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

Rangers and Mages are Archetypes; not classes.
You can look at the design to min/max when we are in Beta because we're supposed to have augments in Alpha 2.
I agree that by Beta-2 people will have enough data to meaningfully min/max.
You didn't even need one page or frame data at all to get us there.

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

aoc archetypes are the stereotypical classes and aoc classes are the stereotypical class specs - they didnt change that much except that all classes share directions that their base gameplay can be pivoted

and you dont need augments to setup base comparisons between available classes and their approach to gameplay

If you look at the OP, it specifically states "class/augment".
Azherae then replied with Scion. Which, in Ashes, is a class; not an Archetype. Which means the context of the OP is being followed.
The subsequent replies also discuss Ashes classes: Dreadnought, Spellsword, Minstrel, Shaman...

I then said, "I dunno how it's possible to min/max or simulate any class prior to having augments - Alpha 1 did not have classes."
And Azherae agreed: "What it is in Beta-2 will matter, which is our point of discussion. That's when min-maxers would be doing their work." "You can 'look at the design' when it's in Beta and calculate 'how much is elemental damage bonus going to help on the average PvE leveling target?' and 'how much does PvE leveling need to avoid AoE?'"

If you want to discuss Archetypes - that is actually a different discussion which has nothing to do with my question/observation.

beaushinkle

Is there a way that someone could convince you to not behave like this?

Like, would a sufficient amount of people being like "I don't like this, I don't appreciate this sort of behavior" get you to change course, or would you just keep doing it? If I could get a moderator to step in and talk to you, would that get you to change how you interact with the forums?

Just curious

Dygz

No.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

aoc archetypes are the stereotypical classes and aoc classes are the stereotypical class specs - they didnt change that much except that all classes share directions that their base gameplay can be pivoted

and you dont need augments to setup base comparisons between available classes and their approach to gameplay

If you look at the OP, it specifically states "class/augment".
Azherae then replied with Scion. Which, in Ashes, is a class; not an Archetype. Which means the context of the OP is being followed.
The subsequent replies also discuss Ashes classes: Dreadnought, Spellsword, Minstrel, Shaman...

I then said, "I dunno how it's possible to min/max or simulate any class prior to having augments - Alpha 1 did not have classes."
And Azherae agreed: "What it is in Beta-2 will matter, which is our point of discussion. That's when min-maxers would be doing their work." "You can 'look at the design' when it's in Beta and calculate 'how much is elemental damage bonus going to help on the average PvE leveling target?' and 'how much does PvE leveling need to avoid AoE?'"

If you want to discuss Archetypes - that is actually a different discussion which has nothing to do with my question/observation.

Just so I'm clear, your entire original point was 'We can't discuss which classes are min/max because we can't discuss classes without knowing Augments and therefore discussing classes in this terminology is impossible'?

If I said "The ranged class that has the best augments for retreat abilities balanced with their best damage" would that be a semi-acceptable answer?

It's moreso that I was saying 'a methodology for min-maxing is available based on data we have now', and I failed to grasp that your post was a tautology based on that reaction you have to definitions, instead taking it to mean 'It isn't really possible to develop a min-max strategy this early', for which I apologize, since it assumed a level of contrarianism that I unfairly associate with you.

EDIT: Also, sorry for the dismissive Meme response, it's Melty Blood release day so I'm busy.

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

Just so I'm clear, your entire original point was 'We can't discuss which classes are min/max because we can't discuss classes without knowing Augments and therefore discussing classes in this terminology is impossible'?

If I said "The ranged class that has the best augments for retreat abilities balanced with their best damage" would that be a semi-acceptable answer?

It's moreso that I was saying 'a methodology for min-maxing is available based on data we have now', and I failed to grasp that your post was a tautology based on that reaction you have to definitions, instead taking it to mean 'It isn't really possible to develop a min-max strategy this early', for which I apologize, since it assumed a level of contrarianism that I unfairly associate with you.

EDIT: Also, sorry for the dismissive Meme response, it's Melty Blood release day so I'm busy.

I was originally agreeing with:

bigepeen wrote: »

Picking a class right now is the opposite of min/max

If you're really a min/max player, you'd wait until you see the numbers and abilities before picking anything.

While you have some great theorycrafting, we have no way of testing your accuracy until we actually have data for how augments change Active Skills.
When we have augment numbers we can truly min/max to choose classes (Ashes classes). That will not happen until we get augments - which is currently slated for Alpha 2.

Theorycrafting is fine.
I think "The ranged class that has the best augments for retreat abilities balanced with their best damage" doesn't really resolve picking a class now.
We'll see how accurate you are with the prediction of Scion once we actually have augments.
I think we don't have much of a disagreement here.
(The meme was fine.

)

Hope you have some fun today! Melty Blood release day, notwithstanding!

SirChancelot

beaushinkle wrote: »

Is there a way that someone could convince you to not behave like this?

Like, would a sufficient amount of people being like "I don't like this, I don't appreciate this sort of behavior" get you to change course, or would you just keep doing it? If I could get a moderator to step in and talk to you, would that get you to change how you interact with the forums?

Just curious

😂🤣😂🤣😂

Tragnar

That happens - you just can't expect Dygz to accept general methodology to create a starting reference point. Since it can't be minmaxed fully then there is no point to do it partially - so to talk about minmax at this point in time according to him is "moot" - as he likes to say

Dygz

I didn't say don't talk about it.
Basically, I agreed with beaushinkle (that post got 7 Likes)
I also agreed with bigepeen.
And I pondered how it's possible to simulate classes and augments for min/maxing before we have any classes or augments.
The answer was that's really a Beta thing. Which satisfied my question - even though we should have enough data to begin doing by Alpha 2, if the devs meet their current expectation that classes and augments will be implemented for Alpha 2.

You can theorycraft what augments you think you want.
I don't know how you min/max augments when we have no numbers for augments.
That observation should not be controversial.

Percimes

maouw wrote: »

Percimes wrote: »

I think I'll max-mining one of my characters, as opposed to min-maxing one. Worst, gimpiest or oddest race/class/augments combo possible. Just to show 'em!

Not sure what it should be. Any suggestions?

Bleed augments with no bleed abilities

NAH

but I want to see a tank bowman

But then you group with someone who has bleed dependant abilities and you're now his best friend! If there is abilities synergy between group members, gimping you're character on an individual level may turn it into a fantastic support for certain grouping situations. Might be niche applications, but it still make gimping a character harder than we think.

The trooper in Star Wars the Old Republic can spec to be a range tank, so you're tank bowman is not completely impossible yet. Maybe he can shoot rooting arrows or aim for sensitive body parts for extra agro :P

maouw

Percimes wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Percimes wrote: »

I think I'll max-mining one of my characters, as opposed to min-maxing one. Worst, gimpiest or oddest race/class/augments combo possible. Just to show 'em!

Not sure what it should be. Any suggestions?

Bleed augments with no bleed abilities

NAH

but I want to see a tank bowman

But then you group with someone who has bleed dependant abilities and you're now his best friend! If there is abilities synergy between group members, gimping you're character on an individual level may turn it into a fantastic support for certain grouping situations. Might be niche applications, but it still make gimping a character harder than we think.

The trooper in Star Wars the Old Republic can spec to be a range tank, so you're tank bowman is not completely impossible yet. Maybe he can shoot rooting arrows or aim for sensitive body parts for extra agro :P

That would be awesome! Love me some inter-class interaction.
In most games I've played, modules on abilities rarely work like this though

Anonymous332

Why do you ask about minmaxing when archetype/classes missing, info on augments missing, info on armor/weapon stats missing and skills/spells missing ++

Come back a month before confirmed release (minimum 3 years, more logical is 4-5 years)

George_Black

Go figure...
And people replied

Mrhubbard

Sorry for my lack of knowledge on the subject. I would delete this If I could lol. I think I should have wrote this post differently! I really just wanted to know what type of weapons people would be running, stuff like that. Sorry for mistake.

Kesthely

Mrhubbard wrote: »

This is for the min max players! What class/augment are you going to go? What weapons would you go for? What stats will you specifically go for. What is the purpose of your character?

Btw this is just theory crafting. You can express all your ideas on what your ideal character is even if some of those aspects won’t be in the game.

As a pvp player i'm hoping that the racials will be balanced enough that every race is pvp viable. Since looks are important for me, (afterall you'll be spending hours with your character on screen) i'll be a Female Vealune Assuming that, you will have to know what kind of player i am.

My pvp experiance is mostly enjoyed in a group, and i love supporting people and healing them. I do like damage as well, but thats given the option the third choice. Support first, healing second damage third.

My primary character will most likely be a Bard. and since i'll be pvp orientated as a support / healer i'll most likely will try to keep my distance.
Depending on the specific class skills and mechanics, i'll either go Bow (if applicable with the skills) or if the majority of the skills require a melee weapon a polearm. or spear like weapon. both options should allow me to provide my buffs and healing or assist in killing. As for the archtype i'll have several choices. My main choice atm is Ranger archtype, since that should synergize with my preferred weapon, and if we end up getting some of the skills as well, or hybrid versions of it, the rangers current revealed skills, offer a nice amount of offensive focussed support skills, like slowing, and making the enemy receive more damage. If the bard will have troubles with a bow, i'll become a Bard with cleric archtype

So in conclusion:

Female Vaelune Song warden (Bard/Ranger)
Female Vaelune Soul Weaver (Bard/Cleric)

Most likely i will switch between the two classes frequently

*Edit: Read the table wrong, adjusted the class names

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