Should Secondary Archetypes be More Permanent?

We know that you can change secondary archetype and that Intrepid are trying to design it so that you can't change often. What do you guys think about the permanency of picking a secondary class? Do you think class identity or primary archetype identity will be more important?

I had an idea where if you wanted to change your secondary archetype, you would revert your character level to the level where you initially pick your secondary archetype. This way you can't change it on a whim and have full character power of the new secondary archetype instantly when you switch, but you would have to develop your character as that of that specific class. However, we know that leveling will take a long time and it would suck to lose literal months of character development just to stop changing class quickly.

I was thinking of this when pondering Looking for Guild advertisements. Would you advertise yourself as a particular class or a particular primary archetype, since you can change your secondary but you cannot change your primary?

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Comments

Dygz

No.
And... already can't change Secondary Archetype on a whim.

I would not LFG. I would go find the people in my Node who play at the same time I do.

McShave

Dygz wrote: »

No.
And... already can't change Secondary Archetype on a whim.

I would not LFG. I would go find the people in my Node who play at the same time I do.

Ok, but when you join with the people in your Node, if you play together often, you all will want to coordinate your character builds so that they benefit each other. This will require a change in secondary as well as maybe new gear/ weapons, etc. We know you can change your secondary, so a lot of people will (like myself).

mcstackerson

I'm not sure how much you would have to coordinate around secondaries. I'd think you would design your build so that it is interdependent and doesn't require another character to perform it's role. I think the goal is for groups to have one of each archetype so i'd assume you would build a group around that with maybe some flexibility when it comes to dps archetypes.

Anonymous332

McShave

mcstackerson wrote: »

I'm not sure how much you would have to coordinate around secondaries. I'd think you would design your build so that it is interdependent and doesn't require another character to perform it's role. I think the goal is for groups to have one of each archetype so i'd assume you would build a group around that with maybe some flexibility when it comes to dps archetypes.

This is a good point, maybe stacking effects will not be a thing in Ashes and each archetype will have it's own thing going on. I was going off the idea of weapon procs and augmentations. Let's say rogue secondary gives a bonus damage to bleeding targets, you could have everyone stack rogue secondary and spec into bleed weapon procs, and then overall there's a greater chance to get the proc and then everyone is doing more damage more often.

You could still have everyone's unique primary archetype kits, but then work together to maximize damage. But, we'll see how it goes as Intrepid releases more information.

Enigmatic Sage

McShave wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

No.
And... already can't change Secondary Archetype on a whim.

I would not LFG. I would go find the people in my Node who play at the same time I do.

Ok, but when you join with the people in your Node, if you play together often, you all will want to coordinate your character builds so that they benefit each other. This will require a change in secondary as well as maybe new gear/ weapons, etc. We know you can change your secondary, so a lot of people will (like myself).

From my understanding, you will want to co-ordinate more around your augment schools for synergy which is somewhat determined by your secondary archetype choice. The secondary archetype determines more of what kind of subclass in your primary you want to be before synergising augment schools.

McShave

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

McShave wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

No.
And... already can't change Secondary Archetype on a whim.

I would not LFG. I would go find the people in my Node who play at the same time I do.

Ok, but when you join with the people in your Node, if you play together often, you all will want to coordinate your character builds so that they benefit each other. This will require a change in secondary as well as maybe new gear/ weapons, etc. We know you can change your secondary, so a lot of people will (like myself).

From my understanding, you will want to co-ordinate more around your augment schools for synergy which is somewhat determined by your secondary archetype choice. The secondary archetype determines more of what kind of subclass in your primary you want to be before synergising augment schools.

What do you mean by "what kind of subclass in your primary you want to be"? If you mean what class identity you want from your primary archetype, that is a personal choice and more power to you. But if you mean what kind of role you play in a group as a member of the primary archetype, then that can change since you can change your secondary archetype.

And if "you will want to co-ordinate more around your augment schools for synergy which is somewhat determined by your secondary archetype choice", and you can change your secondary archetype, then you can change which augment schools you have access to and have more synergy options.

Docwobster

I just want to get back to an MMO where healer's don't have/need to do damage. I'm sick of MMO's where healing for a healer becomes secondary to damage.

daveywavey

I like that the choice will mean something, that you can't just drop and switch out at a moment's notice. However, I did do it a fair amount in Guild Wars where you just needed to complete a quest to be able to unlock each different secondary. But, I did feel that I lost some of my character identity while doing it.

Kesthely

Your secondary archtype should supplement your own playstyle. While some augments are going to be completly different effects, the main spells should remain similar enough that any secondary archtype can fullfill the role you have in your group.

There will always be people and communities that want to min max everything, and they might want to everyone to have X primary or Y secondary archtype or even just playin XY locked. This is fine as long as you find that fun in a game.

Different secondaries make you use different weapons / and or bonuses. Regardless the'll require different gear to be fully optimized. due to gear degration, and aquiring multiple sets of gear for different secondaries, the hurdle will already be big enough for most people to not switch on the fly.

Als remember that you can only switch secondary archtype in certain area's

Dygz

McShave wrote: »

Ok, but when you join with the people in your Node, if you play together often, you all will want to coordinate your character builds so that they benefit each other. This will require a change in secondary as well as maybe new gear/ weapons, etc. We know you can change your secondary, so a lot of people will (like myself).

Don't have to change Secondary Archetypes to benefit each other through synergy.
And...if I am a Necromancer, I'm a Necromancer. I'm not going to stop being a Necromancer for some fotm meta crap.
Very likely I will change gear, weapons and non-archetype augments.

But, other people, who love fotm meta crap, will want to change their Secondary Archetype.
There are paths which will allow them to do so... but, not on a whim.

Dygz

mcstackerson wrote: »

I'm not sure how much you would have to coordinate around secondaries. I'd think you would design your build so that it is interdependent and doesn't require another character to perform it's role. I think the goal is for groups to have one of each archetype so i'd assume you would build a group around that with maybe some flexibility when it comes to dps archetypes.

If I'm a Necromancer, I might want to have my primary group all be x/Clerics with a focus on the Death School.
If I'm a Shadow Disciple, I might want to have my primary group all be x/Rogues with a focus on the Shadow School.
Don't have to coordinate around secondaries, but we might want to do so.
Depends on the individual players and the group.

Optics2134

Played lots of mmos Theory crafting IS WHERE YOUR PVPERS live…. Diminishing return for respec or increase cost per respec but their should be a window of opportunity to test/try/ experience each skill combo experience for players to be able to dial in how they want to play in relation to finding a viable build….

Hayhaka Sapa

Docwobster wrote: »

I just want to get back to an MMO where healer's don't have/need to do damage. I'm sick of MMO's where healing for a healer becomes secondary to damage.

I prefer healer usually (perhaps as a disabled veteran both support and as an Infantry officer, I get tired of killing quickly especially among a bunch of civilians) if going to do anything group. I solo mostly and in group would rather just stay back and heal folks with a little damage thrown in if nothing to do at the moment. Most MMO's you don't get anything for healing though and so being a healer is slower progression. But, healing is the most challenging to me of all classes particularly when playing solo (most of the time) because you have to think to survive as your offense isn't as strong. Most damage classes in MMO's (especially non-magic) are boring as can be to me as they require little thought. You quickly see "this is how it's done in this game and how to build your character for maximum damage". So, you copy a plan and then go spam some buttons in a pre-planned routine. No real thought. The more thinking to survive is involved the happier I am. Group play as a healer is a chance to relax sort of and support.

Happymeal2415

I think if the secondary isn't permanent it should a big choice to change. Even just returning to a town to swap stats and gear doesn't seem steep enough. I would like to see some amount of re training necessary to make the switch. re grind a portion of exp or something

Marcet

For me I would like it to be permanent.

If you want to change it, make another character.

Tyranthraxus

Marcet wrote: »

For me I would like it to be permanent.

If you want to change it, make another character.

/Disagree

It'd really be nice to be able to play a single, "main" toon - and to be able to explore the full (or near-full) content of the game with a single toon. This is a BIG part of what made playing SWTOR after SWG so painful; I went from years of freedom of poking at every aspect of the game with my toon in SWG (i.e. imperial content & rebel content, space content), to playing SWTOR - in which you *need* to create alts and invest time in them, in order to explore all of the game. It was purposeful and by-design.

Now, that's not to say that you should be able to *craft* everything via a single toon; In this case, it feels appropriate to have to invest the time and effort on alts, if this is your goal. HOWEVER, you should still have the freedom to continually explore and then drop all of the crafting abilities - should you feel the need to explore all of them on a single toon.

You'll obviously need different toons to explore all of the combos and class-mixes - but that's fine. But it feels wrong to lock players into a "forever"-type of choice, in regards to their choice for secondary class-combo. If you change your mind at *any* point in the future beyond making that choice, then you'll need to abandon your main toon in favor of creating another.

SirChancelot

Marcet wrote: »

For me I would like it to be permanent.

If you want to change it, make another character.

I'm curious
Why do you think that would be better? How would that be good for the game?

McShave

Marcet wrote: »

For me I would like it to be permanent.

If you want to change it, make another character.

Yes, true to the real feeling of a "class." That's why I presented my idea in the op, a nice balance between leveling a new character for the new class and the ability to just swap some talent points around.

There is the argument tho, that ashes is changing the identity of the word "class." I think each archetype is going to be what feels like a "class" and the second archetype (or class) will be a "subclass."

Marcet

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Marcet wrote: »

For me I would like it to be permanent.

If you want to change it, make another character.

I'm curious
Why do you think that would be better? How would that be good for the game?

I like when people is locked on a class, I feel it gains much more meaning to your choice and you feel more bound to your character, you learn to make the best of what you have and truly maxing out your potential instead of reinventing yourself every time, "swapping some talent points around" and going on what you percieve is stronger or whatever. And btw, youtube will be filled with these meta-slave videos about what is the best combination and then everyone will swap to the current "trend". No personality or meaning to your toon at all.
The true masters are made when you have to stick to one thing and really squeeze the juice out and max to the possible limit.

@Tyranthraxus

Hi, I think you can really experience all the content in the game without having to change a secondary class. And if you change your mind, at least it should be very hard to swap secondary class, leveling from when you chose it OR having a maximum of 3 swaps in the character's life. For me I would like it to be completely permanent, or at least very hard to change.

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