Makers of the "Potion Launcher"

Makers of the Potion Launcher

So both of our dwarf races seem to be tinkerers to some degree. I understand that there isn't any black powder to tinker with, but potion launchers are a maybe. Here is a picture I found on the internet.

I did not make it, nor do I own it.

But I think this "Flasklock" pistol is a very interesting design and should be looked at by the Intrepid team to see if they like it as a concept. This particular concept uses the potion more like a magazine than a projectile. I find that quite interesting and more "fantasy" than just a potion launcher.

I think something with a more dwarven design such as:
pontus-ranefjard-rifle1.jpg?1571474295

With potions used as magazines, the concept could be an interesting one and one that enhances the lore and immersion. Mostly just spitballing, let me know what you guys think.

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George_Black

Not a fan of firearms in mmorpgs. Not when we have dragons wizards and swords

Vhaeyne

Yeah, going to say. I really hope this stuff will not be in Ashes.

It was fine in APOC because that was a temporary game. Guns that shoot potions is just silly. If it was just bullets and black powder, that would be understandable.

I feel like BIG SWORDS makes more sense than potion launchers.

Atama

I want my wizard to have a sword that shoots little dragons at people, then I got it all covered.

Noaani

I really like the idea of a crossbow type weapon that can be loaded with potions.

That isn't at all what is pictured in the OP. I wouldn't want to see that type of weapon in the game.

That said, my understanding of potion launchers in Ashes is that they will be for naval combat.

Tyranthraxus

Aye - am hoping these will be limited to Naval content, as well. Steven recently referenced the deck-guns from the Neverending Story 2. I had to watch part of the movie, as the images were scarce, in google-ing them.

SirChancelot

I haven't really understood their aversion to black powder weapons, but it is what it is. I think naval combat will feel weird without it.(I played a LOT of black flag)
I thought the potion launcher was an interesting replacement in APOC. I wouldn't mind it still being around, I thought it was fun even if a bit over tuned... I think it could have some really cool weapon tree options, and it could also have some fun alchemist profession interactions.

Atama

I also played a lot of Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, which has quite a bit of naval combat and no black powder. Attacks were done via spear and arrow.

In the days before black powder they also had ballistae and catapults available. And in this world, magic too. Who needs a cannon if you can burn a ship with a fireball, destroy its mast with a lightning bolt, or freeze the sea around it?

SirChancelot

Atama wrote: »

I also played a lot of Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, which has quite a bit of naval combat and no black powder. Attacks were done via spear and arrow.

In the days before black powder they also had ballistae and catapults available. And in this world, magic too. Who needs a cannon if you can burn a ship with a fireball, destroy its mast with a lightning bolt, or freeze the sea around it?

True
But the thing about the arrow or javelin attacks kinda only work en masse. Have they said anything about us having a crew of NPCs on our ships? But I guess I would need people to fire cannons while I steer too

Talents

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Yeah, going to say. I really hope this stuff will not be in Ashes.

It was fine in APOC because that was a temporary game. Guns that shoot potions is just silly. If it was just bullets and black powder, that would be understandable.

I feel like BIG SWORDS makes more sense than potion launchers.

Steven said recently that the Cannons on ships will probably be reminiscent of the potion launchers from Apoc.

Vhaeyne

Talents wrote: »

Steven said recently that the Cannons on ships will probably be reminiscent of the potion launchers from Apoc.

Just seems so Final Fantasy to me.

Not that that is a bad thing. FF6 is my favorite FF game, I could see Magitek potion launchers fitting in that world very well.

I just have not gotten the feeling that magical technology is a part of the Ashes setting. Feels out of place so far.

JustVine

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Talents wrote: »

Steven said recently that the Cannons on ships will probably be reminiscent of the potion launchers from Apoc.

Just seems so Final Fantasy to me.

Not that that is a bad thing. FF6 is my favorite FF game, I could see Magitek potion launchers fitting in that world very well.

I just have not gotten the feeling that magical technology is a part of the Ashes setting. Feels out of place so far.

I think that has two root causes. The first is that technology traditionally trends with transportation as it tends to dramatically increase economic efficiency and available resources. But Verra is a low transportation setting. Working out what tech you can use with magic without applying it to trains(either via easy mining or engineering efficiencies) gets very difficult very fast if you are high fantasy. So there are a bunch of world building plot holes that come up that require much more thinking and careful work. Or you can just go 'wasn't discovered yet' which is a very soggy band aid that can ultimately cause the world to feel like it doesn't change much. A large problem down the line given AoC's intentions. So they probably had a lot of work on that front.

You can see world building holes in this very discussed topic. To go 'people don't use basic elemental chemistry because magic is more developed and powerful' requires a suspension of disbelief when they lack magic powered trains or munitions. Humanity discovered black powder a thousand years ago. It's pretty simple chemistry and saves labor. Anyone who knows the process for loading a trebuchet or catapult knows how much fewer people you need as opposed to two or three gunners. It's easy to ask 'why not both' when gunpowder turns muggles into wizards as long as the powder and munition is around.

The second reason is the tulnar which is similar to all of the above but they pose an even bigger challenge for world building relative to technology. They had normal civilization before the fall. Normal tech levels. Then they lost it. Reasonable to an extent. But you have to answer a bunch of questions about how they solved the gap from the lack of civilized infrastructure to survive. Yes many perished but then what. You don't have any magicians to tinker for millennia to get useful tech working? Of course not. There has to be some middle ground, but that requires quite a lot of lore development and building blocks being polished. Tulnar society will have a very distinct feeling relative to tech.

Steven said they want to keep the lore largely a mystery, but a lot of the world build and tech are wrapped in lore based technical challenges. I am sure they have cone up with answers for them skewed, but conveying them to people without unintended leaks is probably a huge challenge they don't have the time for yet.

Ironhope

Cool idea.

Ironhope

George Black wrote: »

Not a fan of firearms in mmorpgs. Not when we have dragons wizards and swords

I mean, I've heard this a lot but, to be fair, when the classical knight in shining armour existed you also had early firearms.

I also would find naval combat hard to imagine without cannons and thats a major part of the game.

SirChancelot

JustVine wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Talents wrote: »

Steven said recently that the Cannons on ships will probably be reminiscent of the potion launchers from Apoc.

Just seems so Final Fantasy to me.

Not that that is a bad thing. FF6 is my favorite FF game, I could see Magitek potion launchers fitting in that world very well.

I just have not gotten the feeling that magical technology is a part of the Ashes setting. Feels out of place so far.

I think that has two root causes. The first is that technology traditionally trends with transportation as it tends to dramatically increase economic efficiency and available resources. But Verra is a low transportation setting. Working out what tech you can use with magic without applying it to trains(either via easy mining or engineering efficiencies) gets very difficult very fast if you are high fantasy. So there are a bunch of world building plot holes that come up that require much more thinking and careful work. Or you can just go 'wasn't discovered yet' which is a very soggy band aid that can ultimately cause the world to feel like it doesn't change much. A large problem down the line given AoC's intentions. So they probably had a lot of work on that front.

You can see world building holes in this very discussed topic. To go 'people don't use basic elemental chemistry because magic is more developed and powerful' requires a suspension of disbelief when they lack magic powered trains or munitions. Humanity discovered black powder a thousand years ago. It's pretty simple chemistry and saves labor. Anyone who knows the process for loading a trebuchet or catapult knows how much fewer people you need as opposed to two or three gunners. It's easy to ask 'why not both' when gunpowder turns muggles into wizards as long as the powder and munition is around.

The second reason is the tulnar which is similar to all of the above but they pose an even bigger challenge for world building relative to technology. They had normal civilization before the fall. Normal tech levels. Then they lost it. Reasonable to an extent. But you have to answer a bunch of questions about how they solved the gap from the lack of civilized infrastructure to survive. Yes many perished but then what. You don't have any magicians to tinker for millennia to get useful tech working? Of course not. There has to be some middle ground, but that requires quite a lot of lore development and building blocks being polished. Tulnar society will have a very distinct feeling relative to tech.

Steven said they want to keep the lore largely a mystery, but a lot of the world build and tech are wrapped in lore based technical challenges. I am sure they have cone up with answers for them skewed, but conveying them to people without unintended leaks is probably a huge challenge they don't have the time for yet.

As far as your second point goes, just think of the dark ages. Rome was the peak of civilization, got sacked, then 'tech' went to garbage for a few centuries.

Vhaeyne

@JustVine

I never really thought about it until you pointed it out, but transportation is a large part of what makes me accept things like magical technology.

The two main settings where I think magical technology is done best in my opinion are Final Fantasy (Mostly 6,but also 7,14 and others) and D&D Ebberon. These settings do have things like trains and air ships and take the time to explain them. Ebberon goes into great detail on how trains and airships work based on magic and not science.

With Verra it feels much like Game of thrones or Lord of the rings so far. Vast landscapes with castles and only paths carved by mount travel to connect them. The roads are not even paved, much that we have seen so far. Maybe that will happen in higher node levels. I guess this is why I feel like the setting is so low tech.

I guess I tend to forget that just because Verra seems to not have much in the way of magical technology. That does not mean that "us" the people returning to it would not have any form of magical technology.

JustVine

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Talents wrote: »

Steven said recently that the Cannons on ships will probably be reminiscent of the potion launchers from Apoc.

Just seems so Final Fantasy to me.

Not that that is a bad thing. FF6 is my favorite FF game, I could see Magitek potion launchers fitting in that world very well.

I just have not gotten the feeling that magical technology is a part of the Ashes setting. Feels out of place so far.

I think that has two root causes. The first is that technology traditionally trends with transportation as it tends to dramatically increase economic efficiency and available resources. But Verra is a low transportation setting. Working out what tech you can use with magic without applying it to trains(either via easy mining or engineering efficiencies) gets very difficult very fast if you are high fantasy. So there are a bunch of world building plot holes that come up that require much more thinking and careful work. Or you can just go 'wasn't discovered yet' which is a very soggy band aid that can ultimately cause the world to feel like it doesn't change much. A large problem down the line given AoC's intentions. So they probably had a lot of work on that front.

You can see world building holes in this very discussed topic. To go 'people don't use basic elemental chemistry because magic is more developed and powerful' requires a suspension of disbelief when they lack magic powered trains or munitions. Humanity discovered black powder a thousand years ago. It's pretty simple chemistry and saves labor. Anyone who knows the process for loading a trebuchet or catapult knows how much fewer people you need as opposed to two or three gunners. It's easy to ask 'why not both' when gunpowder turns muggles into wizards as long as the powder and munition is around.

The second reason is the tulnar which is similar to all of the above but they pose an even bigger challenge for world building relative to technology. They had normal civilization before the fall. Normal tech levels. Then they lost it. Reasonable to an extent. But you have to answer a bunch of questions about how they solved the gap from the lack of civilized infrastructure to survive. Yes many perished but then what. You don't have any magicians to tinker for millennia to get useful tech working? Of course not. There has to be some middle ground, but that requires quite a lot of lore development and building blocks being polished. Tulnar society will have a very distinct feeling relative to tech.

Steven said they want to keep the lore largely a mystery, but a lot of the world build and tech are wrapped in lore based technical challenges. I am sure they have cone up with answers for them skewed, but conveying them to people without unintended leaks is probably a huge challenge they don't have the time for yet.

As far as your second point goes, just think of the dark ages. Rome was the peak of civilization, got sacked, then 'tech' went to garbage for a few centuries.

During the middle ages there was a bunch of key technological advancements. Mechanical clocks, vertical windmills, wine presses,, horizontal looms, cranes, water hammers, stern mounted rudders, too many types of water powered mills to even count.... Tons of stuff.

And don't even get me started on the agricultural revolution that occured as a result of horseshoes. Horses are stupid efficient compared to oxen, so a bunch of tech got upgraded once people figured them out. Plough tech got buffed and crop rotation became standard and improved over the middle ages.

If civilization exists and collapses people don't just twidle their thumbs. They regroup with whatever knowledge they have and move forward. So while I get your sentiment, that particular example wasn't a very good equivalent to the Tulnar. The middle ages being a dearth of technological advancement is a myth created by the idolization of the Roman Empire and a skewed methodology of what counts as 'important advancements'.

SirChancelot

JustVine wrote: »

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Talents wrote: »

Steven said recently that the Cannons on ships will probably be reminiscent of the potion launchers from Apoc.

Just seems so Final Fantasy to me.

Not that that is a bad thing. FF6 is my favorite FF game, I could see Magitek potion launchers fitting in that world very well.

I just have not gotten the feeling that magical technology is a part of the Ashes setting. Feels out of place so far.

I think that has two root causes. The first is that technology traditionally trends with transportation as it tends to dramatically increase economic efficiency and available resources. But Verra is a low transportation setting. Working out what tech you can use with magic without applying it to trains(either via easy mining or engineering efficiencies) gets very difficult very fast if you are high fantasy. So there are a bunch of world building plot holes that come up that require much more thinking and careful work. Or you can just go 'wasn't discovered yet' which is a very soggy band aid that can ultimately cause the world to feel like it doesn't change much. A large problem down the line given AoC's intentions. So they probably had a lot of work on that front.

You can see world building holes in this very discussed topic. To go 'people don't use basic elemental chemistry because magic is more developed and powerful' requires a suspension of disbelief when they lack magic powered trains or munitions. Humanity discovered black powder a thousand years ago. It's pretty simple chemistry and saves labor. Anyone who knows the process for loading a trebuchet or catapult knows how much fewer people you need as opposed to two or three gunners. It's easy to ask 'why not both' when gunpowder turns muggles into wizards as long as the powder and munition is around.

The second reason is the tulnar which is similar to all of the above but they pose an even bigger challenge for world building relative to technology. They had normal civilization before the fall. Normal tech levels. Then they lost it. Reasonable to an extent. But you have to answer a bunch of questions about how they solved the gap from the lack of civilized infrastructure to survive. Yes many perished but then what. You don't have any magicians to tinker for millennia to get useful tech working? Of course not. There has to be some middle ground, but that requires quite a lot of lore development and building blocks being polished. Tulnar society will have a very distinct feeling relative to tech.

Steven said they want to keep the lore largely a mystery, but a lot of the world build and tech are wrapped in lore based technical challenges. I am sure they have cone up with answers for them skewed, but conveying them to people without unintended leaks is probably a huge challenge they don't have the time for yet.

As far as your second point goes, just think of the dark ages. Rome was the peak of civilization, got sacked, then 'tech' went to garbage for a few centuries.

During the middle ages there was a bunch of key technological advancements. Mechanical clocks, vertical windmills, wine presses,, horizontal looms, cranes, water hammers, stern mounted rudders, too many types of water powered mills to even count.... Tons of stuff.

And don't even get me started on the agricultural revolution that occured as a result of horseshoes. Horses are stupid efficient compared to oxen, so a bunch of tech got upgraded once people figured them out. Plough tech got buffed and crop rotation became standard and improved over the middle ages.

If civilization exists and collapses people don't just twidle their thumbs. They regroup with whatever knowledge they have and move forward. So while I get your sentiment, that particular example wasn't a very good equivalent to the Tulnar. The middle ages being a dearth of technological advancement is a myth created by the idolization of the Roman Empire and a skewed methodology of what counts as 'important advancements'.

True, but all of that was different development.
Vera had all sorts of tech 'A' until collapse. Tulnar developed tech 'B' to survive after the collapse. And then while the Verrans we're spirited away with the gods they probably maintained tech 'A' and glimpsed some of God tech 'C' while there

So when we start playing they should have a little bit of everything thing A,B,andC...

I'm sure one of those will have the ability to yeet potions.

Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Talents wrote: »

Steven said recently that the Cannons on ships will probably be reminiscent of the potion launchers from Apoc.

Just seems so Final Fantasy to me.

Not that that is a bad thing. FF6 is my favorite FF game, I could see Magitek potion launchers fitting in that world very well.

I just have not gotten the feeling that magical technology is a part of the Ashes setting. Feels out of place so far.

I think that has two root causes. The first is that technology traditionally trends with transportation as it tends to dramatically increase economic efficiency and available resources. But Verra is a low transportation setting. Working out what tech you can use with magic without applying it to trains(either via easy mining or engineering efficiencies) gets very difficult very fast if you are high fantasy. So there are a bunch of world building plot holes that come up that require much more thinking and careful work. Or you can just go 'wasn't discovered yet' which is a very soggy band aid that can ultimately cause the world to feel like it doesn't change much. A large problem down the line given AoC's intentions. So they probably had a lot of work on that front.

You can see world building holes in this very discussed topic. To go 'people don't use basic elemental chemistry because magic is more developed and powerful' requires a suspension of disbelief when they lack magic powered trains or munitions. Humanity discovered black powder a thousand years ago. It's pretty simple chemistry and saves labor. Anyone who knows the process for loading a trebuchet or catapult knows how much fewer people you need as opposed to two or three gunners. It's easy to ask 'why not both' when gunpowder turns muggles into wizards as long as the powder and munition is around.

The second reason is the tulnar which is similar to all of the above but they pose an even bigger challenge for world building relative to technology. They had normal civilization before the fall. Normal tech levels. Then they lost it. Reasonable to an extent. But you have to answer a bunch of questions about how they solved the gap from the lack of civilized infrastructure to survive. Yes many perished but then what. You don't have any magicians to tinker for millennia to get useful tech working? Of course not. There has to be some middle ground, but that requires quite a lot of lore development and building blocks being polished. Tulnar society will have a very distinct feeling relative to tech.

Steven said they want to keep the lore largely a mystery, but a lot of the world build and tech are wrapped in lore based technical challenges. I am sure they have cone up with answers for them skewed, but conveying them to people without unintended leaks is probably a huge challenge they don't have the time for yet.

As far as your second point goes, just think of the dark ages. Rome was the peak of civilization, got sacked, then 'tech' went to garbage for a few centuries.

During the middle ages there was a bunch of key technological advancements. Mechanical clocks, vertical windmills, wine presses,, horizontal looms, cranes, water hammers, stern mounted rudders, too many types of water powered mills to even count.... Tons of stuff.

And don't even get me started on the agricultural revolution that occured as a result of horseshoes. Horses are stupid efficient compared to oxen, so a bunch of tech got upgraded once people figured them out. Plough tech got buffed and crop rotation became standard and improved over the middle ages.

If civilization exists and collapses people don't just twidle their thumbs. They regroup with whatever knowledge they have and move forward. So while I get your sentiment, that particular example wasn't a very good equivalent to the Tulnar. The middle ages being a dearth of technological advancement is a myth created by the idolization of the Roman Empire and a skewed methodology of what counts as 'important advancements'.

True, but all of that was different development.
Vera had all sorts of tech 'A' until collapse. Tulnar developed tech 'B' to survive after the collapse. And then while the Verrans we're spirited away with the gods they probably maintained tech 'A' and glimpsed some of God tech 'C' while there

So when we start playing they should have a little bit of everything thing A,B,andC...

I'm sure one of those will have the ability to yeet potions.

Sanctus - the world people escapes Verra to, has no magic at all.

First though, it's not the dark ages - that is a term essentially used by ignorant 18th century 'historians' who were more interested in proving how enlightened they were than they were with actual accurate history. They characterized various periods of European history as "The Dark Ages" if they didn't see any advancement - yet they didn't look for any advancement.

That out of the way, those of us coming back through the portal are essentially coming from a magicless world that would seem to be about as advanced as 15th or 16th century Europe (seemingly). We are walking in to a world that was nothing more than a myth, and where all of a sudden, magic exists.

It would not be entirely unlike someone today walking through a portal to Atlantis, and realizing that they can cast fireballs there.

I personally can forgive an absence of utilitarian magic in such a setting - much more than I can in a setting where magic has always been a fact of every day life.

Atama

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I guess I tend to forget that just because Verra seems to not have much in the way of magical technology. That does not mean that "us" the people returning to it would not have any form of magical technology.

Yup. The idea is that we are returning to a long-abandoned world as pioneers, where only ruins are left from the civilizations that once existed. Like astronauts landing on a barren planet. The infrastructure isn't there because we haven't built it yet.

We already know Scientific Nodes that reach the Metropolis level will have airships allowing for limited fast travel, and artwork for such a node includes what looks like magical lighting as well as elegant construction:

I'd argue that a Divine Gateway is another sort of magical technology and we've already seen them in the game. They're a key part of the game, showing how we arrive in Verra.

Yuyukoyay

I am not entirely against the ideas of new weapons if it's balanced well. I just don't want guns to be objectively better than everything else. Guns did exist in the middle ages. They were just so bad that people were making fun of them because they took so long to reload that no one saw how to make them work. Until Oda Nobunaga saw what they did and literally taught the world how to use them.

I see the appeal for them in a fantasy setting if they are the shittiest guns you can imagine ever existing. Honestly that is very hard to do because the shittiest guns most people imagine are like 100 times better than what they really had. xD It makes a lot of sense for Dwarves to use guns in other fantasy settings than just WoW as well. They are always metal crafters and they are too stunty to effectively use bows. They are also strong enough to withstand recoil but not strong in certain areas a normal sized person would be which is why they are unable to use bows completely. Dwarves either use guns or crossbows because the automation makes it possible.

For this game I would much rather the crossbow aesthetic over guns. It makes more sense. Matches the game better.

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