Should There Be a Wait Time on Re-Selling Market Items, to Fight Inflation?

@Enigmatic Sage

This conversation could be helpful to some. I know there are plenty of lurkers on this forum.

This is like one of the few areas I actually am optimistic in, so it feels nice. If I hoped that we would have a game without DPS meters, I would be as skeptical as you are about bots.

Noaani wrote: »

I'm still really curious as to how you know it's botting.

Botting in combat is fairly easy to spot on a games logs, but not only is botting on the market hard to spot, it is also really uncommon due to how easy it is to send a player bankrupt if they are using a bot.

How do I as a player detect bots on the market?

It will depend on how much information we are given from the AH. If we can see the last 10 transactions, buyer/seller and the times. You can just individually list items and see how fast they sell at various times.

Such automated market tools were used in WOW to alert players of listings within value ranges, then play a sound to alert them to buy. No doubt, many do the next step and automate to buying which breaks TOS.

In WOW you could not report someone for buying all day with a supernatural speed because the market add-on was alerting players at supernatural speed which in theory was allowed. In Ashes, no add-ons are allowed at all, so you could build a case pretty quickly if you have the item you listed sell within seconds of listing it.

The botter can do things like buy with one character and sell with another to obfuscate the market manipulation, but if you are paying attention, you are going to notice who is setting prices. I will often PM players if they are consistently selling in a way this is affecting my bottom line to try and negotiate a deal where we both make more money.

You can't really do the above in FFXIV due to the retainer system obfuscating the real seller. This leads to constant undercutting spikes that destroy the value of a single item harder than hoarders could ever raise it.

In general, though, you notice patterns that seem suspect.

I also believe 100% that people will leave characters at the AH around the clock in each populated market to "scan" the AH with computer vision to populate a real-time database. While that in theory is not detectable, I would notice if the same character was there day in and day out. If I see a pattern that looks suspect, I will explain it to the GM in a ticket.

@Vhaeyne the dumb ones will leave them there around the clock. Smart ones will migrate and do it intermittently with other botters from various real world locations working together or solo. The character isn't just a bot, but players toggle a bot when they desire. Not all bots requires the game to restart.

I've seen many games with trade markets such as auction houses get ruined by bots let alone them ruin PvE and PvP through the various genre's let alone trades. If done right, they can trick the logs for even combat as well but that requires a whole other discussion with programmable error based on classes and combat mechanics.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

In general, though, you notice patterns that seem suspect.

This is about what it amounts to in most games.

I've had players ask me in games if I am a botter when I spend time at the marketplace. People like to see botting when there is none - it is a common thing.

People then see what they think is botting, and see the games developer or publisher do nothing about it and they get upset. People then blame all of the games problems on these things that they think they have seen but indeed have not (or often have not, at least).

In my opinion, people thinking they have seen botting or other such activity and spreading that around as fact is at least as big of an issue to MMO's as actual botting and such activities are - and players need to stop it.

@Enigmatic Sage

All going according to design, I have faith that it will be too hard not to get noticed as a bot.

We have a lot of going for us. Off the top of my head: A hostile world, No phasing, No name changes, No server transfers, A reasonable time investment to level a character, No fast travel.

These are all things that I consider to be measures that help reduce bot effectiveness.

@Noaani

I, personally, build a case. My first course of action if someone else is price fixing will be to try and sell to them directly. If it's a person, I got no problem.

So, long as they are not buying at a superhuman speed. Which is a major red flag.

If they are wanted to fix the price at 25 and sit on the AH and buy all of an item below that. That is fair. I have done that myself. It can work. I would just contact the seller and try to sell to them directly to save the listing fee. Try to get them to buy at like 24.5 or something.

If they don't respond and keep buying at superhuman speeds I have my case. If they are not buying at superhuman speeds, but are botting at least real humans have a chance.

I don't think I am the only one who pays close attention to the market when they are dealing with a good that makes them money consistently. Close enough to notice things selling instantly.

There may be the odd time I report a human because they did not respond to my PMs or responded in a way that made me think it was a bot. That is for the GMs to investigate, though.

We can all hope they are not as bad as Blizzard and, from what I have heard, New World. Where they auto-ban after mass report.

@Vhaeyne I'm not expecting them to have a perfect system either, just enough deterrence to make it worth gamers time to not be discouraged by wasting time playing a game that could be ruined by botters and gold sellers down the road. I'm still waiting to see proof of other claims Intrepid has made. AoC looks pretty, but from my experiences over the years and the bullshit AAA studios try to pull, the game is usually shit. specific graphics design choices doesn't mean the game is better. It's a bullshit stigma that has been embedded into the next gen gamers. I'd rather a solid game that is fun to its core over AAA graphics (not saying AoC is AAA graphics, just implying it being pretty doesn't have me sold on anything).

In regards to your auto-ban comment for Noanni, it's a horrible system that players have been abusing to win pvp events or just straight trolling.

Voidwalkers

Regarding bots, my own experience

- In Eve Online I used to spend 1-3 hrs per day at market hubs MANUALLY managing trades. I wrote a program to handle the out-of-game parts (pull market data and finding trades). I thought about writing one to handle some of the in-game work too, but I didn't dare to, as I wasn't sure whether Eve can detect 3rd party programs interacting with its UI.
- In FF14 I used to spend hours per day sitting next to the market npc MANUALLY buying mats, crafting, and listing items. And I wasn't alone.
- In Ragnarok Online I used bots, but combat bots. A widely available one too, and it's free.

My thoughts:
1. Manual market players exist. Players who sit still at an AH for hours aren't necessarily bots. 24 hrs? Then may be.
2. Bots likely aren't as prevalent as people suspect. Well except the RMT gold sellers may be, as they likely have the resource to write bots, and can afford to lose accounts while testing the bots.

And reasons for 2:
a. We are all afraid of the ban hammer too. We don't do it unless we're confident that the devs can't catch us (or just won't ban us for whatever reason).
b. I don't believe it's that easy to acquire a reliable bot. Either you write your own, or you place enormous trust in a mysterious .exe sold by an anonymous 3rd party (which could well be a malware), or you download a widely available bot that somehow everyone's using and still not yet addressed by the devs.

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Vhaeyne I'm not expecting them to have a perfect system either, just enough deterrence to make it worth gamers time to not be discouraged by wasting time playing a game that could be ruined by botters and gold sellers down the road. I'm still waiting to see proof of other claims Intrepid has made. AoC looks pretty, but from my experiences over the years and the bullshit AAA studios try to pull, the game is usually shit. specific graphics design choices doesn't mean the game is better. It's a bullshit stigma that has been embedded into the next gen gamers. I'd rather a solid game that is fun to its core over AAA graphics (not saying AoC is AAA graphics, just implying it being pretty doesn't have me sold on anything).

Yeah, Maybe I have been here waiting for this game too long, and I am too optimistic. I am certainly just as jaded as you are about any other game or studio on the market. Except maybe "Satisfactory" those Devs are angels in my eyes...

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

In regards to your auto-ban comment for Noanni, it's a horrible system that players have been abusing to win pvp events or just straight trolling.

I am pretty sure both Amazon and Blizzard have lied and stated that they don't use such systems. Pretty confident, Intrepid would say the same thing... Somehow I believe Intrepid. I hope that doesn't come back to haunt me a few years down the road.

@Vhaeyne Dont get me wrong, I not throwing shade at Intrepid or Steven. I got a problem with how many companies and corporations are handling the future of gaming in the modern day.

Take Corporate EA constantly raping their franchises for quick money at the cost of what those franchises did to bring them where they are today. Battle Field went downhill, more specifically noticeable around BF4. They keep trying to be things they're not to bait sales for features when they should have stuck to what their fanbase wanted, more destruction, advanced destruction and intricate level design to encourage that destruction. It's not about the graphics, it's about poor choices in design. BF4 = bad, BF one = awful, BF 2042 = a shit show. If they want to make battle royale rip off of Activision's COD ripping off BF, then just make one, don't drag one of the last good things about EA through the dirt feeding gamers shit sandwiches called new features. Advance what the franchise is known for while adding in small little things.

Never really was into COD, last one I was remotely interested in was Modern Warfare 2.

Anyways, It's things like these that I dont like about corporate influence ruining their franchises to make more money for the CEO's and Investors. What happened to making games for gamers by gamers? when did it turn into, here's a shit sandwich, you want it with or without crust? thanks for the money.

Dont even get me started on loot boxes and Bethesda... lol

I'd suggest we need a bit of inflation. I usually find that prices drop and drop and drop cos every new seller is trying to undercut the current ones. If there's an Iron Finger-Guard for sale for 15gp, then the next seller along will sell it for 14gp, and the next for 13gp....

@Enigmatic Sage

I get it.

It's why I did not even give New World a chance. They were weaseling and backpedaling about microtransactions before launch. "We might have some quality of life services..." or whatever they said. I said, "No" and skipped New World. I would do the same for Ashes if I noticed any suspect behavior.

We also got EA saying "NFTs are the future of gaming", whilst Valve is banning them... Valve is not the golden child of gaming in my eyes, but they have more good will with me than EA. I guess the moral is that Valve has some sort of philosophy other than pure greed guiding their business practices.

Some of these companies charge you extra for the service of taking the crust off the shit sandwich.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Some of these companies charge you extra for the service of taking the crust off the shit sandwich.

Well, it would increase the shit-to-bread ratio...

daveywavey wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Some of these companies charge you extra for the service of taking the crust off the shit sandwich.

Well, it would increase the shit-to-bread ratio...

I doubt its even real bread. Could be cardboard with "bread-like" artificial flavorings...

unknownsystemerror

Keep going. I just need a "Ruinz mah mershun!" to fill out my bingo card for today.

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

Keep going. I just need a "Ruinz mah mershun!" to fill out my bingo card for today.

You are not getting that one!

Having a market that would screw you twice if you had two assholes is about as realistic and immersive as it gets.

Vhaeyne wrote: »

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

Keep going. I just need a "Ruinz mah mershun!" to fill out my bingo card for today.

You are not getting that one!

Having a market that would screw you twice if you had two assholes is about as realistic and immersive as it gets.

Bah! If only I'd had "screwing assholes" on today's bingo card

@Vhaeyne valve is definitely trying to go the better route for what they are.

They all seem to have some horrible ideas of how to screw over their consumers for money. You're right, may not even be bread, could just have bread written on the card-board with shit sandwiched in the middle so every time consumers bite into it it just slops out the side. Pretty much sums up the gaming industry. Activision/Blizzard, Bethesda, EA, just serving shit sandwiches and getting away with it.

overfitneuralnet

MMORPGs face such problems (inflation) for a couple of reasons:

1. You have resource gathering for a crafting system and the gathered-to-expended ratio is too high.
2. Second reason might be in combination with 1 but where there is no need to expend the extra resources - for repairs, crafting extra stuff etc. If you only need gold/credits to repair, you will just end up selling your extra materials to try to make a profit.
3. There are probably a lot more, these are just the 2 main ones.

My point being - if the systems in the game are not in sync, there will always be issues. You can't have an endless supply of materials without a proper sink for them and not ruin the game economy.

Now.. The OP suggestion is interesting, but it wouldn't really work - just putting a timer on the item would either have 0 effect on the market or will be too long and just irritate people who like trading (and I mean trading trading, negotiations and such, not just clicking in an Auction House) and ultimately make them leave.
On the other hand, you COULD have some sort of a tax on items above certain value - which can also be decided by the mayor for example.

Say you want to sell some UBER-steel. It costs 50 gold a pop on the market, but you want to buy it and then sell it outside of the auction for 75 a pop. Ding-ding, it's above the 60 gold/piece set by the mayor on that tier of materials (there's also UBER-wood, UBER-stone etc) and when you perform a transaction you pay 10% tax (example value) on the amount you receive. So you ultimately receive 67.5 gold/piece.

I think being able to implement such taxes would be more beneficial to a player driver economy than having some artificial blocker telling you you need to wait for 3 days before you can sell your shit.

overfitneuralnet wrote: »

UBER-wood