Controversial: Augmentation might be a bad idea if set to 25 and later

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

After much discussions i've included a list of what different people want augments to be able to do:
Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects

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Comments

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

"stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

Your point basically comes down to this.

I disagree.

You are basically saying that games should throw everything they have at new players within the first hour or two of game play. In any real game - a game with both depth and breadth, this would overwhelm even a seasoned gamer.

Every MMO has things that players gain access to as they progress in level. This is not unique - in fact it is a near requirement in order to hold player interest.

If a player would quit Ashes because of this, they would not have stayed in the game very long anyway, and are not the kind of player the game should be altered to suit.

bloodprophet

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments

Augments come from many places. The only ones that come from secondary archetype selection come at level 25. Are you proposing that Intrepid allow secondary archetype selection at level1?

mfckingjoker

I've seen that in other mmos and it works just fine. Besides you will get to know pretty much everything before launch so you should know what class to eventually choose so I don't understand what the problem really is.

Kesthely

There is a difference of "trowing everything" at a player from the start or having a racial augmentation available from the start instead of at lvl x. Its a racial augmentation afterall. You don't change your race or class at 25 you build upon it.

One of the reasons that Ashes allows every race to play every archtype and let every archtype be augmented by every other archtype is to allow that freedom to create that "D&D" feeling of truly making your character your own.

Were not talking of implementing new systems in here, were talking of allowing a set amount of options in the game design that's going to be inherent to each member of that race to be implemented at the start instead of after x hours of gameplay.

Another example: At some point Staff combo was featured a ability for the cleric that when using staffs when doing basic attacks with that staff you would get mana back (it didn't make it to Alpha 1 but its unsure if its going to be implemented later on) You play a cleric, and you invest points in staff combo to allow your attacks to regain mana. but you also want your racial favorite weapon to be able to do so. So you spend additional skill points to augment that skill even further so it now uses your racial weapon for that ability instead.

Its an introductionary way of how augments work and race and fate are an excellent way to implement such features without overwhelming, or unbalancing the game.

Edit: If we go by Alpha 1 a starting character starts out with 3 skill points to spend. They can choose to get one passive and one active skill, or spend points on 2 active skills, potentialy maxing out one of the skills immediatly. if we assume that augments are also going to be costing 1 or 2 skill points instead of getting an active skill and a passive skill this would allow the player to get one active skill and augment it with a racial augment.

It wouldn't even invalidate the Fighter / Ranger choice for example if the racial augment that does the same as one of the Ranger augments costs more. (eg Elven racial augment to use your skill trough the use of the bow costs 2 skill points, and the ranger archtype allows you to do the same with the use of 1 skill point)

daveywavey

The game is designed to allow you to choose a Secondary Archetype at Level 25.

Allowing the choice of a Secondary Archetype at Level 25 isn't "changing a fundamental game mechanic".

The Secondary Archetype IS the fundamental game mechanic that you yourself are trying to change...

Kesthely

daveywavey wrote: »

The game is designed to allow you to choose a Secondary Archetype at Level 25.

Allowing the choice of a Secondary Archetype at Level 25 isn't "changing a fundamental game mechanic".

The Secondary Archetype IS the fundamental game mechanic that you yourself are trying to change...

I disagree.

lvl 1-24: you buy you buy (passive abilities) and get x skill eg the fighter's charge.
eg in 0.5 seconds you travel to your target within 30 ft. This is blocked by obstructions. then make your attack

25+ you uagment the skill with an augmentation, making it work different. You augment it with mage teleportation:
eg you instantly teleport to your target and make your attack. This works even if there are obsturctions between you or the target is at an elevation where you would normally be unable to reach.

That is a fundamental change in your class gameplay.

And some of the archtype / augment options lets you drastically change your playstyle. From making physical attacks magical, or vice versa (requiring completely different stats of gear) making some abilities from melee to ranged or vice versa (which with hybrid combat will feel completely different to play) or changing some abilities from single target to area of effect or vice versa.

If you discover 20 hours in that your character can suddenly change from physical to magical, and you end up liking that playstyle you'll need a completely different set of gear. If you go from melee to ranged or ranged to melee that requires a different weapon, I can forsee a "fighter" planning his character around an archthpe, focus on a staff, and then take mage abilities so he can teleport charge and then smack it with a firedamage dealing attack that makes his fighter abilities completely magical, and be very effective because against other fighters his magical attacks bypass most other fighters defense, while his plate holds up against them.

At 25 suddenly having 8 archtypes available to use on all your then active abilities, with l hundreds of build options per class. That's what going to overwhelm players. NOT the fact that you start out with a racial introduction augment so you learn that you can augment your skills and thus form your own unique playstyle, and then gradually open up more and more options

daveywavey

At Level 1 - 24, you know that your character is only half-complete. You know that you're going to get a Secondary Archetype. It's not going to be a surprise. You'll pick whatever best suits the playstyle you want to play. You'll still have the same skills you had before, but they'll be slightly improved in whatever way you've chosen.

The idea that someone might find they prefer their new playstyle isn't a good enough reason to modify the existing design. It's the design's purpose.

McMackMuck

I find it difficult to critique a system that we haven't seen more than a few words about. From what we do know I can envisage a full spectrum of implementations, from train wreck to genius. I'm open to see what's put in front of us before working on some constructive criticism.

Kesthely

daveywavey wrote: »

You know that you're going to get a Secondary Archetype. It's not going to be a surprise.

No, WE know that that's the case, there are going to be a lot of players that go into the game blindly by all kinds of references, marketing or word of mouth. Most players don't follow development years before launch, they don't deepdive into the game before they get a chance to play it. They install it and then start playing. That's why that is called the "new player experience" Those who've familiarized themselves with the systems, races, classes, builds, abilities, are the exception. We enter the game as veterans of the system even before we've had a minute of game time. Sure we still need to get accustomed to some things, and get our bearings. But we know and understand the underlying systems. a new player doesn't.

Look at this article: https://www.limelight.com/resources/white-paper/state-of-online-gaming-2019/
The average game time per day is 1 hour 22 mins, They don't spend that precious time deepdiving into the mechanics of the game, they log on, play have fun, and 20+ days later they suddenly realize that they maybe wasted 3 weeks of their time playing a game that if they knew of it would have done differently.

Now you can say: But i don't need someone that only plays 1 hour a day in my game. But that's where your wrong. Those players help build up the node, they contribute xp, that either levels it up, or refrains it from leveling down, it provides people with a market to sell goods, or buy resources from, eventually they'll also participate in dungeons / raids / pvp. the average player is the backbone of a game its integral in its design in game, but also for development. Such a player that doesn't complain on the forums, and just consumes content for an hour or so a day doesn't require much developer time. they assist in paying the sub, and because that the average player is in his 30's and has little time, they also buy cosmetics to show for their effort. They are the corporate money maker that Intrepid will need to maintain the servers, to keep game masters active, to pay developers for new content. and the studio for new innovative games.

Taleof2Cities

Players change classes, archetypes, roles, and augments all the time in MMOs … regardless of how much time they’ve logged in the game.

Why would Ashes all of a sudden add extra hand-holding for those decisions?

daveywavey

Just like anything in life: You get out what you put in.

If you're going to just start playing a huge game like this without doing any research, then you can't expect to get everything right first time. Even we, who will have been following the game's development for years, and who will have joined in the testing of the game, will still get things wrong the first times through.

I don't see the need to change the design of the game for in case new people decide not to read up on it first.

Teaching the basics of the game to a new-comer is the job of the Tutorial.

Azherae

daveywavey wrote: »

Just like anything in life: You get out what you put in.

If you're going to just start playing a huge game like this without doing any research, then you can't expect to get everything right first time. Even we, who will have been following the game's development for years, and who will have joined in the testing of the game, will still get things wrong the first times through.

I don't see the need to change the design of the game for in case new people decide not to read up on it first.

Teaching the basics of the game to a new-comer is the job of the Tutorial.

That's not really the point though.

In terms of any design, the question should always be 'can I make this better without really compromising anything'. It's bad to get stuck on any of your own arbitrary things. Not to say explicitly that the decision given here is arbitrary, but someone would have to explain to me why it stands up to scrutiny, because I can't find a reason yet.

We don't know if it could change, we don't know why Intrepid chose level 25. None of my guesses as to why it was chosen as 25 are particularly charitable, since I know why developers and designers normally do this sort of thing.

So if it could be changed to 15, without seriously affecting anything, there's no reason they won't change it. If changing it to 15 alleviates some of the problem for new players as @Kesthely described it, then one should check if the original reason for setting it to 25 is worth the 'damage' that is being predicted. Something that generally would be done by experience. Experience that might not have been available at the time of the decision.

"When you get to start Augments" isn't exactly a 'core game mechanic'. Fortunately I guess we can just 'ask Steven why it's level 25' and hope we get an answer. The discussion itself isn't necessarily invalidated by the fact that 'lowering it or adding something that introduces it earlier would be different from what was said before'.

daveywavey

You're assuming that the "new player problems" are indeed problems. Nobody else in the thread seems to think they are.

Max Level is expected to be 50 at launch. You start with half your archetypes. You get the other half when half-way through at Level 25. Doesn't seem too incredible.

Azherae

I think they are.

I think @Kesthely's outlined explanation is entirely correct and is technically conservative.

My various experiences back this up, though of course they are anecdotal.

So, I'm not 'assuming', because the argument here is 'people who would otherwise remain, would leave', and I'm adding 'the game might not be compromised by solving this problem in a way that causes less people to leave'.

Edit: In general 'other people in the thread don't see a problem' is not a response that is useful when it comes to me, because the 'easy' answer, which I just don't use, is to 'call all the people that trust me to speak for them relative to game design to also verify that they see a problem'. Let's not clutter the thread with that.

daveywavey

By the time a new player has gone through the tutorial, learnt how to play, and has got to Level 25, they're going to have enough about them to make at least a partially informed decision about their Secondary Archetype. They'll also likely be in a guild or have a group of other players that they play with that they can discuss these things with. They'll also likely have found websites that detail Ashes information that can help them to make an informed choice. Getting a Secondary Archetype at Level 25 is not going to make players leave the game.

Azherae

daveywavey wrote: »

By the time a new player has gone through the tutorial, learnt how to play, and has got to Level 25, they're going to have enough about them to make at least a partially informed decision about their Secondary Archetype. They'll also likely be in a guild or have a group of other players that they play with that they can discuss these things with. They'll also likely have found websites that detail Ashes information that can help them to make an informed choice. Getting a Secondary Archetype at Level 25 is not going to make players leave the game.

This is an argument used a lot in design, it's unfortunately ruined by survivor bias.

The majority of people one talks to about a game are those who get over any rough patch they have and continue playing. Those who get frustrated, and 'go do something else and then just never bother to come back', move on to the community of the 'something else' and you don't get metrics on their loss from just commentary except the ones who are so salty and mad about it that they complain too hard and then get disregarded for that reason.

You'd have to gather a lot of data about 'players who stop playing games because of patches and changes' from the internal metrics side to know that what you've said isn't the norm. Because it isn't. Let me know if I should start citing examples, and let me know if they 'must be MMOs to count'.

The point being made is that 'picking up the game and then playing one way, and then changing that way of playing much later in a way that meaningfully affects your tactile experience with the game', can cause disruption and disinterest. Add the time investment required to get to level 25, compare to the general player's ability to play, and then basically go 'will this person understand the media they consume'. Especially since players of the type we're talking about, rely heavily on other people with analytic skills or at least strong personalities who just 'tell them what to do because it's clearly good'.

The things you say are 'likely' are not necessarily more likely than the other way. It might be that 'those are the people that you prefer would continue to play Ashes and you don't really care about the other kind of person', but it's just not true to 'claim what players will be like' in that way.

The only thing saving this whole thing is the fact that you can just double down on your Primary and hopefully that will be 'what you signed up for', because a player of the second type will probably not lose out on anything by doing this. Presumably this is why the specific example was used. I expect that Rangers and Bards are going to have the hardest time of this, based on the data collected.

Jahlon

From reading your entire OP, you clearly don't have any clue as to how Ashes of Creation is going to function. I would highly suggest hitting up the wiki and/or https://ashes101.com/combat#overview in order to learn how the game is actually designed. 95% of your concerns aren't valid because they don't even exist in what Intrepid is planning.

Kesthely

Everyone has a preferred playstyle. Thats why MMO's have Tanks Dps and healers, That's why DPS has Ranged and melee, magical and physical, and why healers have single target, healing over time and Aoe healing. Each player has its own view on things.

Now if i for instance want to make a ranged dps, i have the primary archetypes of Ranger and mage, and potentially summoner and bard as my options to try out. I would not assume fighter, rogue or tank or cleric would potentially be on that list. due to the build diversity augments might give me later on.

If however i would see at character creation for example on the woodelf as a racial augment "this augment changes your skill so that it is attached to your quick bow attack" or a similar skill, or tooltip i would take note of that. Even if i select a different race, and i would see similar racial augments for specific weapons pop up, it would peak most peoples interest to check the different races out for their racial augments and plan their character accordingly.

Eg look at the ranseur of malice, a spear from alpha 1, it has hybrid stats. Physical damage bonus with otherwise magical modifying stats. it would indicate that their will be builds who can make use of both. Getting a limited introduction into what augments will do, and fundamentally change your character, will need to be made clear very early on in one way or another, or your going to have a lot of upset people. They either find out that they want to reroll, or give up on the game entirely. In both cases their reviews and recommendations of the game will be significantly lower

I'm not asking for a change of when the secondary archetype gets introduced. I'm saying that there are different types of augments that can be introduced earlier, to let people understand what augments do, and how they can affect your class, so that they are prepared for the potential choices that the game gives at lvl 25.

Noaani

You seem to assume people won't look at the game and the class system at all.

The augment system and what it can do is not going to catch anyone by surprise. In order for what you are saying to be true (people leaving the game) the system would need to come as a total surprise to them.

Unkempt Foliage

Everything is just guessing at this point. it could be bad, it could be good. Mostly it depends on how drastic the play style change is and how easy it is to change.

Some examples of a bad system would be at level 25 they just ability dump you. and give you 10+ abilities without a chance to learn them. That would be bad.

Or if you wanted to play a range pet class like falconer and you don't get your pet until level 25. Then discover that you hate pet classes and the only option would be to start over because its hard to change. That would be bad.

But if its just a gradual change (which is my reading of it) then it will be fine. Your play style will be similar but you just specialize a bit further on the aspects you really like about your main class. That's at least how I envision it off of the reading.

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