Kesthely wrote: » A lot of people are saying "gradual build up of abilities is part of an mmo" and i agree. Thats why in my opening post i advocate for allowing 1 or 2 augments -Racial- augments to start at lvl 1. so you can gradually see how augments will affect your gameplay. It will teach people how augments can modify your build, and at the same time it will make your elven fighter feel different then your dwarven fighter. In my first response to your question I agreed and gave the link showing this is the case and what they are doing.https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments Racial augments are based on a character's race and are available to each class.[33] These apply to abilities on a character's primary archetype.[34] They affect how the ability works and can also apply cosmetic effects.[35] Strong religions provide unique augments that can be applied to a player's primary skills.[37][38] Religious augments are considered top-tier achievements within a religion.[37] These augments can be stacked on top of class augments. They will have a give-and-take system based on the choices a player makes.[37] Social organizations unlock augments.https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guilds#Guild_progression Augments may apply at the upper tiers of guild progression.[7] The augments will come from many places and you will be picking them up as you go. It should give people a chance to learn the system so when they get to level 5 and pick a secondary it should not be a big culture shock. Hopefully they can do it right so we pick them up at a fair pace and new players that aren't all in on everything Ashes have an opportunity to learn.
Kesthely wrote: » What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance there is a major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay. A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player. Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point. ... So what can Ashes do to prevent this? In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.
Azherae wrote: » pyreal wrote: » Kesthely wrote: » First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay. A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player. Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously. Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point. Example: You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go" And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours. So what can Ashes do to prevent this? There are numerous ways. Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype. With respect, I find your example far fetched or simply showing the course of action of a twit. 1: If you want to play a bow-centric character, a Ranger should have been your first choice. 2: Choosing a tank and then whining you can't heal is Snowflakism. Mix and match here. 3: If not resubbing for this reason, which is the players fault for lacking common sense... well, bye. Quiters quit. 4: This whole post rests on the premise that the 2nd archetype is going to "CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL GAME MECHANIC OF THE GAME".... /whipsers but its not! So lemme see if I get this... You're basically calling anyone who chooses an Archetype based on that list that we've had multiple threads about, and then the gameplay doesn't suit their style, a twit? Including all the Predators, Scouts, Necromancers, Falconers, etc? Why is this community like this? "Y'all are stupid, Intrepid should never change anything for you, gtfo with your (insert request for change here)." Even when nothing of value is being protected, even when the stuff people are poking about is stuff that Intrepid either explicitly said is possible (meaningful changes to Skills via Secondary for example) or would barely affect anything negatively... Seriously, why?
pyreal wrote: » Kesthely wrote: » First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay. A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player. Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously. Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point. Example: You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go" And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours. So what can Ashes do to prevent this? There are numerous ways. Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype. With respect, I find your example far fetched or simply showing the course of action of a twit. 1: If you want to play a bow-centric character, a Ranger should have been your first choice. 2: Choosing a tank and then whining you can't heal is Snowflakism. Mix and match here. 3: If not resubbing for this reason, which is the players fault for lacking common sense... well, bye. Quiters quit. 4: This whole post rests on the premise that the 2nd archetype is going to "CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL GAME MECHANIC OF THE GAME".... /whipsers but its not!
Kesthely wrote: » First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay. A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player. Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously. Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point. Example: You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go" And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours. So what can Ashes do to prevent this? There are numerous ways. Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.
pyreal wrote: » Azherae wrote: » pyreal wrote: » Kesthely wrote: » First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay. A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player. Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously. Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point. Example: You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go" And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours. So what can Ashes do to prevent this? There are numerous ways. Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype. With respect, I find your example far fetched or simply showing the course of action of a twit. 1: If you want to play a bow-centric character, a Ranger should have been your first choice. 2: Choosing a tank and then whining you can't heal is Snowflakism. Mix and match here. 3: If not resubbing for this reason, which is the players fault for lacking common sense... well, bye. Quiters quit. 4: This whole post rests on the premise that the 2nd archetype is going to "CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL GAME MECHANIC OF THE GAME".... /whipsers but its not! So lemme see if I get this... You're basically calling anyone who chooses an Archetype based on that list that we've had multiple threads about, and then the gameplay doesn't suit their style, a twit? Including all the Predators, Scouts, Necromancers, Falconers, etc? Why is this community like this? "Y'all are stupid, Intrepid should never change anything for you, gtfo with your (insert request for change here)." Even when nothing of value is being protected, even when the stuff people are poking about is stuff that Intrepid either explicitly said is possible (meaningful changes to Skills via Secondary for example) or would barely affect anything negatively... Seriously, why? I'm all for requesting changes based on sound reasoning, not examples showcasing ignorant choices. You didn't make a point out my no 4, namely the whole the thing rests on a false statement...
Azherae wrote: » Are you also a person who believes that: 1) Adding Summoner to Ranger will not result in meaningful changes to the player's ability mechanics 2) Adding Fighter to Cleric will not result in meaningful changes to the player's ability mechanics Because if so, I can see how you consider it a false statement and I have nothing further to engage on.
Azherae wrote: » pyreal wrote: » Azherae wrote: » pyreal wrote: » Kesthely wrote: » First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay. A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player. Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously. Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point. Example: You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go" And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours. So what can Ashes do to prevent this? There are numerous ways. Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype. With respect, I find your example far fetched or simply showing the course of action of a twit. 1: If you want to play a bow-centric character, a Ranger should have been your first choice. 2: Choosing a tank and then whining you can't heal is Snowflakism. Mix and match here. 3: If not resubbing for this reason, which is the players fault for lacking common sense... well, bye. Quiters quit. 4: This whole post rests on the premise that the 2nd archetype is going to "CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL GAME MECHANIC OF THE GAME".... /whipsers but its not! So lemme see if I get this... You're basically calling anyone who chooses an Archetype based on that list that we've had multiple threads about, and then the gameplay doesn't suit their style, a twit? Including all the Predators, Scouts, Necromancers, Falconers, etc? Why is this community like this? "Y'all are stupid, Intrepid should never change anything for you, gtfo with your (insert request for change here)." Even when nothing of value is being protected, even when the stuff people are poking about is stuff that Intrepid either explicitly said is possible (meaningful changes to Skills via Secondary for example) or would barely affect anything negatively... Seriously, why? I'm all for requesting changes based on sound reasoning, not examples showcasing ignorant choices. You didn't make a point out my no 4, namely the whole the thing rests on a false statement... Are you also a person who believes that: 1) Adding Summoner to Ranger will not result in meaningful changes to the player's ability mechanics 2) Adding Fighter to Cleric will not result in meaningful changes to the player's ability mechanics Because if so, I can see how you consider it a false statement and I have nothing further to engage on.
Noaani wrote: » You are suggesting developers shouldn't be introducing players to major new mechanics half way through the leveling process, which is exactly where most players would expect to learn about mechanics of the game.
Noaani wrote: » So, are you suggesting that the developers should introduce these mechanics at level 1, and just throw everything at the player right at the start?
Overthrow wrote: » This debate is moot since you can change your secondary archetype if you don't like your initial choice. It's a solution that addresses OP's concern and he didn't mention this so he probably didn't know.
pyreal wrote: » OP claims that 2nd archetype will "change the fundamental game mechanic" for the player. It will not. Examples from Devs have been on this line: Warrior Charge changes from a running charge to a teleport. 'Fundamental change'? No. Same mechanic (distance closer), same reqs (likely distance to target), same outcome. Different animation and/or casting/channeling time are the differences here. Hardly 'fundamental'.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » Honestly, until we actually see how much secondary archtype augments can change abilities and effect the classes we shouldn't be worried about this. Maybe the augments don't change it that much, so 25 would be fine. Maybe they can change up a class a lot, so we should ask to see it earlier in our characters. Personal opinion. Most people who've read my posts know I hope augments can shift a class a lot, for bigger effects on their playstyle. With that in mind I would hope it be earlier in my leveling, maybe around lvl 15?
SirChancelot11 wrote: » Honestly, until we actually see how much secondary archtype augments can change abilities and effect the classes we shouldn't be worried about this.
Kesthely wrote: » Noaani wrote: » You are suggesting developers shouldn't be introducing players to major new mechanics half way through the leveling process, which is exactly where most players would expect to learn about mechanics of the game. In my experiance they don't. They like building up on the systems, getting more skills more talent points etc, new mechanics are similar to getting the azunite system or the legion legendary weapon (both from World of warcraft) Thus i advocate to already have a limited form of augmenting from the start so it builds up on that with the secondary classes, instead of becomming a new mechanic
Noaani wrote: » I do know, my concern is not that you can change your secondary archetype or change the augments, but that the playstyles you can create because of the augments is so different you might have wanted to pick a different PRIMARY archtype (Something you CAN'T change)
Kesthely wrote: » If the changes due to augments are minor, then it ultimatly doesn't matter at wich level we get them, but if they are as intresting as i hope they are, then it will be one of the most important aspects of the game.
SirChancelot11 wrote: » Kesthely wrote: » If the changes due to augments are minor, then it ultimatly doesn't matter at wich level we get them, but if they are as intresting as i hope they are, then it will be one of the most important aspects of the game. Ok, what I'm saying is we should wait until we know something before asking them to change something. Right now we know very little about the scale of augments.
