Post max level progression, let's discuss

What systems have you seen in other games regarding character progression past max level?

I am not talking about professions, or mounts or anything like that. Strictly character progression.

1) My first example of "not this way" is New World.

(Short explanation of how it works in NW)

After reaching max level (level 60), you enter a "High watermark system" (HWM). At the start, you can only drop gear that has a gear score of 500. After killing elite mobs or searching elite chests (that have a respawn time of 24h), you can drop a piece of gear that is 502. This increases your HWM for that gear piece only (legs, chest, helmet) and allows you to drop higher gear score items. Repeat this until you get to gear score 600. Also works the same way for weapons, each weapon having a separate HWM. Also, stuff that you buy from the trade post do not count for HWM. And the HWM is a hidden mechanic that you cannot check in-game at all.

(Explanation over)

Now, this system is crap. Utter crap. I tried to engage with it for a little bit and after 3 days of hunting elite mobs and doing chests i didn't drop a single piece of gear that i use. Not. One. That's when I gave up.

2) Another example of "not this way" would be no gear score.

Have the ability to drop the best item in the game as soon as you reach max level and finish progression then and there. Having an RNG system that maybe drops instantly or never is again, bad.

3) Have an infinite progression.

I haven't played BDO, but from what i gather, there is not set power limit. The more you play, the better your gear. This one is really bad, only benefits those that invest a lot of time in the game.

4) My proposal.

Now, i have been thinking about this for awhile and this is what i got so far.

After you reach max level there should be a some type of mechanic that starts affecting your character. But rather than be a hidden mechanic, have it be a quests chain that involves everything in the game. Difficult quests that needs a lot of work. Maybe one them says "take part in a siege" or other high level activities. Not exactly sure here, as I don't want it to be just "do what you did for the last 50 levels again". Something that just came to mind would be a quests that can be started only in a specific node after it gets to level 5, and each player gets a random one out of 10. So they then each group whats to level their node.

No matter the exact quests, the reward would be access to a 1 player instance. This instance would be hard and everyone must do them alone. Based on the players performance in this solo dungeon, they get to "wish" for (aka craft) a specific item they want. No RNG system, just raw skill. How good are you at the game.

A end game system like this would be satisfying and challenging at the same time because:
-there is no RNG involved. You get items based on how good you are and you get the items you want (I really, really don't need a great axe if i am a mage, trust me game, i really don't need it)
-if you get a crap item, it only because of you.
-is it solo players friendly
-even if you get a crap item, you can do the quest line again and try again.
-it lets the devs decided the power level of the rewards.

However, i don't think that the this should be the only way. You can get best-in-slot items like this, but you need to do a perfect run. Which would be rare. There could and should be other ways, like rare drops from dungeon/world-bosses or top level crafting, however the drops are random and the crafting is tied to the dungeon drops. This would be a way for everyone to get a guarantee upgrade for the gear they use.

What do you guys think? And what other system have you seen that worked well?

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Comments

George_Black

Post cap progression... a symptom of lobby gameplay mmorpgs but let me actually say a bit more...

Lv cap should not be rushed. Leveling should take time. This also gives players time to enjoy gearing, housing, sieging, trading, crafting.
If you cant gear up for lv20 how are you going to reach lv40?
But what do ppl know of such things when they hit cap in a week.
All leveling should take time. High lv players can help lower lv guild members, while they painstakingly reach max lv and max gear. That should be the endgame of a meaningful, fulfilling mmo.

Not changing itemLv every second day, once at lv cap, or farm stats 0.001% stats past max lv like in eso.

Gaul_

I would bear in mind that Steven has repeated the mantra, "there is no endgame." I don't think you will see any sort of highly repetitive gear score grinding like New World or systematic raiding tiers like WoW or FF14. I think there will be a large variety of content instead and it will be a big world where players set their own goals.

From what I can tell AOC's design is about interacting with other players and following the cycle of Build/Protect/Loss/Destroy with lots of players trying to reach individual goals and being allowed to play how they want instead of follow a more scripted endgame that other games force on the most competitive players.

Karast

If Ashes were to have a post cap progression system, I would like to see something like prestige levels that give access to special titles or cosmetic unlocks. A few cool titles and some interesting cosmetics is good motivation for post cap grinding.

Azherae

I'd like a constantly expanding horizontal progression for as far as stats and synergies allow it.

Gear that has minor but meaningful bonuses to defenses against specific things, but is rare. Gear that allows you to synergize better with specific allies in specific situations, but isn't as good as 'stock' gear otherwise or in most situations.

Basically, gear that lets you plan and gear for relatively specific encounters, whether those are PvE, or 'PvP against known targets in a specific area'.

I don't want to be fighting a World Boss Golem because it drops the best overall gear on the server, I want to fight it because it drops maybe the best Lightning Defense body piece, or even better, some item that lets me enchant some subset of body-armor pieces that I like, with additional Lightning defense.

Repeat for ability buffs, 'synergy with teammates' buffs, 'specialization for lower level Weapon Skills to bring them close to par with later ones' buffs...

This sort of thing can keep me going forever, and won't cause the whole server to chase the same encounter all the time.

Tragnar

Overthrow wrote: »

I would bear in mind that Steven has repeated the mantra, "there is no endgame."

That "mantra" gives a misleading impression, because what he actually means (that can be well understood from the design of game systems) is that you are part of the endgame from level 1 - so in essence you don't have traditional endgame

The "endgame" is to improve your node you live in to the maximum and thus you create access to the best dungeons/raids the game has to offer where you are able to gather materials for the best gear

The closest thing to this system i can think of was the opening of the gates of ahn'qiraj in original wow. Where a realm didn't get access to the raids until you turned in predetermined amounts of materials. Same core concept is the basis of the node system - materials/services are required for upgrading nodes that opens new higher level opportunities, dungeons and possibly raids

Noaani

George Black wrote: »

Post cap progression... a symptom of lobby gameplay mmorpgs

That is a load of total shit and you now it.

Going back to the original EQ, there was hundreds of hours of progression to the level cap, and then many more hundreds of hours of progression past the level cap.

Instancing had not yet been developed for MMO's, let alone the notion of instantly teleporting to them - the basis for lobby games in an MMO.

The notion that post cap progression is a symptom of lobby games is pure ignorance on your part. You should remove the offending post and reconsider your position here.

Gaul_

Tragnar wrote: »

Overthrow wrote: »

I would bear in mind that Steven has repeated the mantra, "there is no endgame."

what he actually means (that can be well understood from the design of game systems) is that you are part of the endgame from level 1 - so in essence you don't have traditional endgame

Yes, exactly. Instead of the game space being separated into 2 independent parts of "leveling" and "endgame" like FF14 or WoW, Ashes will have a unified environment that has lots of freedom and horizontal progression. You will have to pick your own goals because you cannot cover every aspect of the game. This would be somewhat akin to EVE Online where a new player could begin contributing to their chosen community fairly quickly.

Percimes

I'd prefer the main progression past max level be centred more around developing the node/city rather than being centred on individual characters power. Collective gains rather than personal gains.

You don't go fight a big world boss because it drops phat loot: you go fight it because it threaten the city, or because once dispatched it will free lands for estates or fields for creatures handlers. What it drops is a bonus, but not the main interest.

You don't kill a underground dungeon boss because it drops magic flip-flops: you do so because once leaderless the mobs in the place are rarer and it makes mining the rare resources easier. But, yeah, the flip-flops are popular among the Niküa.

There should be personal gains too, especially if they are horizontal in nature, but most end-game should be for the communities of players. Whether small (guild's control of a keep) or grand (big bonus from the metropolis).

Tragnar

Percimes wrote: »

I'd prefer the main progression past max level be centred more around developing the node/city rather than being centred on individual characters power. Collective gains rather than personal gains.

You don't go fight a big world boss because it drops phat loot: you go fight it because it threaten the city, or because once dispatched it will free lands for estates or fields for creatures handlers. What it drops is a bonus, but not the main interest.

You don't kill a underground dungeon boss because it drops magic flip-flops: you do so because once leaderless the mobs in the place are rarer and it makes mining the rare resources easier. But, yeah, the flip-flops are popular among the Niküa.

There should be personal gains too, especially if they are horizontal in nature, but most end-game should be for the communities of players. Whether small (guild's control of a keep) or grand (big bonus from the metropolis).

This makes me think you didn't research anything on how the raids and nodes are supposed to work

If you don't develop node you don't get a new spawn of raid - plus you don't get item drops, just mats you gather from boss rooms or the boss himself. And raid rewards are purely guild centric, because the guild gets the resources and then the guild can allocate those resources to their liking

or did you think everyone has their personal loot slot machine?

Percimes

I'm so sorry. I thought this was a thread in which we were invited to discuss alternative ways to progress post max level. I'll keep my silly hopes and dreams to myself and head strait to the wiki to learn how everything is set in stone so I can correct anyone expressing anything that's not true to the holly words.

Tragnar

You still don't understand - what you "prefer" is already described in the design principles as the intended mechanic for the game - what i'm pointing out is that you have no clue on what this game wants to be and you post wishes that you want fulfilled, when they already are

Percimes

No, Tragnar, I do understand that my end-game vision align rather well with what's planed. You assume that I don't.

But what I envisioned is not exactly the same. I don't want the focus of late game to be on forever-character power growth through gear acquisition, be it from direct drop or drop components to be crafted. That is not a common opinion, most people like their shiny rewards. I don't want to grow a node simply to get access to gear or encounters. I don't want the raids and dungeons to be rewards for improving a node: I want them to be obstacles to surpass in growing a node toward metropolis status.

Improving node to get content vs. overcoming content to improve node.
Improving node to get rewards vs. improving the node is the reward.

In both case it's a collective effort, but there are nuances.

Tragnar

Those "nuances" are not mutually exclusive and at least by my understanding it will be a bit of both.

There is no need to be polarizing and choose between your 2 options when it literally makes sense to sometimes get content by improving the node and sometimes to complete a content to improve the node.

And I'm sorry for not being a mind reader to know that you are actually familiar with the intended design, but choose to create posts in such a way to explicitly pretend like you don't

Percimes

Absolutely, it should be a bit of both for the node. The players complete some challenge/content, it allows the node to progress and the world react by throwing new difficulties and challenges to the players.

My concern is more on the player side of things than on the node side. While leveling I don't really have a problem with the progression being focus mostly on the individual players. Our character development should be more directly linked to our personal actions. We should always feel our efforts benefit our node, but early on the node should not feel like it limits our progressions drastically. But as we gain level the node's importance to our character progression should be more and more heavily felt. At max level, the main path to improve your character should be through the node. I'm not proposing an abolition of direct personal gain, players like their shiny bobbles and eliminating them would probably be too alienating, but the rewards should come from the node and thus be "accessible" to all citizens of the node. Accessible to, not given to. Collective effort, collective rewards.

On the gameplay side there is no real difference between what I said and what's been announced. The difference is on where you stick the reward.

If a huge collective efforts is required to push a node to the next step and that step unlock a new dungeon with hard bosses that drop rare mats needed to craft powerful items, but the only ones who will get these are members of the alliance strong enough to farm the place, and prevent others access... Remember, no instances... Why would anyone not a member of that alliance want to push for the node development? Why work so others get stronger in a PvP game? Hope for the crumbs? Be satisfied to have access to higher work benches? Sounds a lot like the "game" many of us are playing offline hehe.

Tragnar

those players that create monopolies are fully capable to fund the upgrade entirely on their own, the only way how to really slow them is to have a maximum amount character can contribute, but even then - thats what their alts will be used for (when not used for scouting)

UltraEnchanter

I feel as if you have collected all your legendary items (which should take a casual player atleast 6 months to achieve) You could just go out in the world to pvp, help guildies, or farm to become rich. Everytime I see the word "endgame" It makes me start to realize that the word means the person is actually done playing the game.

In NW for example, no one liked the grind for watermarking, however if they had received the exact items they wanted more quickly, or in a different manner altogether, they still would've become bored all the same.

UltraEnchanter

Use a system such as the DAOC artifact system. After a player reaches max level they can attempt to go into the world to acquire ancient legendary artifacts, and these artifacts would require scrolls to decipher, as well as needing to kill a specific type of mob to gain levels on the artifact weapon/armor after it has been deciphered.

Marzzo

UltraEnchanter wrote: »

I feel as if you have collected all your legendary items (which should take a casual player atleast 6 months to achieve) You could just go out in the world to pvp, help guildies, or farm to become rich. Everytime I see the word "endgame" It makes me start to realize that the word means the person is actually done playing the game.

In NW for example, no one liked the grind for watermarking, however if they had received the exact items they wanted more quickly, or in a different manner altogether, they still would've become bored all the same.

Endgame is simply gameplay loops once you reach max level and completed most if not all of the "entry level" max level tasks.

UltraEnchanter

Marzzo wrote: »

UltraEnchanter wrote: »

I feel as if you have collected all your legendary items (which should take a casual player atleast 6 months to achieve) You could just go out in the world to pvp, help guildies, or farm to become rich. Everytime I see the word "endgame" It makes me start to realize that the word means the person is actually done playing the game.

In NW for example, no one liked the grind for watermarking, however if they had received the exact items they wanted more quickly, or in a different manner altogether, they still would've become bored all the same.

Endgame is simply gameplay loops once you reach max level and completed most if not all of the "entry level" max level tasks.

I know. The real question is what is the endgame to the endgame tho? Should there even be an endgame to the endgame?

Tragnar

UltraEnchanter wrote: »

I know. The real question is what is the endgame to the endgame tho? Should there even be an endgame to the endgame?

that question is just asked wrong - endgame is personal to every player, for someone exploring the whole world is the endgame and once he does that he feels like he can quit, someone has auction house as an endgame loop, some might have as endgame the advancement of story and others the best gear is an endgame to them

so endgame is truly just a personal view, what matters is if there is a good content and if there are gameplay loops at max level

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