Controversial: Augmentation might be a bad idea if set to 25 and later

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

After much discussions i've included a list of what different people want augments to be able to do:
Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects

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SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

You are suggesting developers shouldn't be introducing players to major new mechanics half way through the leveling process, which is exactly where most players would expect to learn about mechanics of the game.

In my experiance they don't. They like building up on the systems, getting more skills more talent points etc, new mechanics are similar to getting the azunite system or the legion legendary weapon (both from World of warcraft) Thus i advocate to already have a limited form of augmenting from the start so it builds up on that with the secondary classes, instead of becomming a new mechanic

My understanding of WoW is that you start getting talent point at level 10.

So, they are introducing new systems to players during the leveling process in that game as well, just as you are complaining about here.

I'm sure you'll say there is a big difference between level 10 in WoW and level 25 in Ashes. This is true, there are. However, there is almost nothing at all that WoW needs to teach new players because the game is as bland as they come.

In Ashes, you need to first of all learn about the node, PvP and caravan systems. These are likely what we will spend the first 20 or so levels doing, and each of them is more important than secondary classes and augments.

Then, when people understand those systems (or when they should understand them), it is time to introduce a new system.

If Intrepid were to move teaching about augments to level 10 instead of level 25, do you propose they teach about the node, PvP and caravan systems in that first 10 levels, leaving players with no real time to let the information sink in, teach about them after augments and such, leaving players exposed to people that already understand these systems, or teach them all at the same time so players have no idea what is going on at all?

Because, believe it or not, the point at which you introduce a mechanic to players is not decided in a vacuum. You need to consider the pace at which new information is given to players, and you need to prioritize that information and order it in a way that makes sense to players.

When it comes to prioritizing information to players in Ashes, nodes come first. This is not uo for debate.

After that, ensuring players have a good understanding of the PvP system is critical. This won't take long, but this is good - teaching an easy, fast concept after teaching a more complex concept (nodes, in this case) makes it easier for both to sink in.

Caravans may well be introduced after level 25, but honestly, I could see it taking 20 levels to teach the basics of gameplay and nodes.

I agree with what you're saying about it not being in a vacuum... But shouldn't people learn the flavor of their own character before anything else?

10 levels in wow out of 60: 16% in to leveling
25 levels in aoc out of 50: 50% in to leveling
Imagine not chosing a spec in wow until level 30

You're saying I should learn how to PvP before getting the other half of my characters identify?
Saying I should be out there learning to PvP when I only have 4 abilities at level 10 sounds weak... I would rather have a more fleshed out character before fighting with it.

Also you sound worried about teaching people about nodes, I think you can teach the basics really straight forward in your 'starting zone' quests. Do these things to help the village grow... Seems super straight forward for some level 1-10/15 stuff... Then augment your character and get a feel... Then start pushing PvP at 25 when you have a full skill bar and some CDs...

bloodprophet

Kesthely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

You are suggesting developers shouldn't be introducing players to major new mechanics half way through the leveling process, which is exactly where most players would expect to learn about mechanics of the game.

In my experiance they don't. They like building up on the systems, getting more skills more talent points etc, new mechanics are similar to getting the azunite system or the legion legendary weapon (both from World of warcraft) Thus i advocate to already have a limited form of augmenting from the start so it builds up on that with the secondary classes, instead of becomming a new mechanic

Noaani wrote: »

So, are you suggesting that the developers should introduce these mechanics at level 1, and just throw everything at the player right at the start?

having 2 passives, 2 actives, 2 weaponskills and 1 or2 augments isn't trowing everything at them. as far as i've seen you start with 3 skill points and gain 1 skill point per level. so at 25 you would have 28 skill points to spend. if you devide that by 2 for a balanced active and passive build, you have 14 points in active abilites, enough to max out 4 abilities and have 1 at 2 points. Now if each class has 4 augments, at that point you are looking at 5*8*4 or 160 potential variations for your abilties to choose from. for me thats a concerning amount of things to consider

Overthrow wrote: »

This debate is moot since you can change your secondary archetype if you don't like your initial choice. It's a solution that addresses OP's concern and he didn't mention this so he probably didn't know.

I do know, my concern is not that you can change your secondary archtype or change the augments, but that the playstyles you can create because of the augments is so different you might have wanted to pick a different PRIMARY archtype (Something you CAN'T change)

pyreal wrote: »

OP claims that 2nd archetype will "change the fundamental game mechanic" for the player. It will not.

Examples from Devs have been on this line: Warrior Charge changes from a running charge to a teleport. 'Fundamental change'? No. Same mechanic (distance closer), same reqs (likely distance to target), same outcome. Different animation and/or casting/channeling time are the differences here. Hardly 'fundamental'.

I'll clarify it for you how fundamentally different it is. Your participating on a castle siege. You stand on a wall shooting down. Fighter A comes towards the wall and is a Fighter/Fighter. He has to go trough the chokepoint , then up a stairs, and can only then charge you due to charge range / line of sight limitations.
Fighter B is a Fighter/Mage with Teleportation on his charge. He runs up to the wall, and teleports in your face, he bypasses the chokepoint or the stairs and is their instantly before you can even slow or crowdcontrol or damage him. And this is a funamentally different playstyle.

Seeking to understand your thoughts.
Is your primary concern that the augments will allow you to move so far from their primary archetype choice that the first archetype choice becomes moot?
or is it that people will be confused that when they hit level 25 and pick their second archetype that picking fighter first then mage second will not allow them to play mage vs fighter?

Is your underlying concern that you cannot change your primary archetype?

Noaani

Overthrow wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I do know, my concern is not that you can change your secondary archetype or change the augments, but that the playstyles you can create because of the augments is so different you might have wanted to pick a different PRIMARY archtype (Something you CAN'T change)

Oh okay, well sure that's possible but we can't accurately debate it at this point because we haven't seen the secondary augment system yet or even how long it takes to get to level 25. Another possibility is that the method of changing your secondary archetype will be a huge pain.

I'd bear in mind though, as an example: if you pick Mage and then hate your initial pick of Bard as your second archetype then you have 7 more to choose from. That includes doubling down on Mage for your second archetype as well. Presumably between all 8 options your character will still feel like a Mage on several of them.

I don't doubt there will be a lot of players who want to experiment with different archetype combinations but I think it's fine to have character rerolling be a significant time commitment. Pretty much every other game with classes works that way--you don't get the full feel of the class until later in the leveling process.

That wasn't a quote from me.

Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

I agree with what you're saying about it not being in a vacuum... But shouldn't people learn the flavor of their own character before anything else?

Yes, they should.

Thing is, if you are a mage, the flavor of your character will always be a mage. You may pick bard ass your secondary to become a sorcerer, but the base flavor of your character is still a mage.

Even if you pick to become a sorcerer, since that can be changed to turn you in to a spellstone, which still has you being a mage first, learning to be a mage before you learn to be a sorcerer seems like the right thing to do.

If you just learn to be a sorcerer before you learn to be a mage, then you are in for a much harder time when you do eventually change your secondary. On the other hand, if you learn to be a mage first - you learn the flavor of your class ass you say - then changing to a different subclass will be less of an issue, because you understand the base mage.

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, you need to first of all learn about the node, PvP and caravan systems. These are likely what we will spend the first 20 or so levels doing, and each of them is more important than secondary classes and augments.

Then, when people understand those systems (or when they should understand them), it is time to introduce a new system.

If Intrepid were to move teaching about augments to level 10 instead of level 25, do you propose they teach about the node, PvP and caravan systems in that first 10 levels, leaving players with no real time to let the information sink in, teach about them after augments and such, leaving players exposed to people that already understand these systems, or teach them all at the same time so players have no idea what is going on at all?

While the node system is the most important part of the game, the world revolves around it, as a player you don't need to know anything about the nodes to be able to do well untill you want to master one profession and need a freehold. You can participate in a nodes activities as a non citizen, and have almost all content unlocked. you can join in attacking or defending caravans, nodes, castles, you can do all the crafting up till master, and you canreach endgame without beeing part of the node. Its dungeons and raids are not locked behind citizenship. Therefor, from a player stand point node activities are optional.

character development is not. When you do activities you gain levels. this is a non optional system. And thus it should take priority over everything else for learning. The other game play options are optional. You'll partake and learn about them when you want. Also its my understanding that ashes wants to create a world with little to no handholding. the route your suggesting by learning about everything in a structured way, is diametrically opposed to that.

@Azherae For me class identity is one of the most important aspects of the game. the reason why i'm intrested in ashes is because of the potential to make different and unique builds. The more important thing is how the gameplay feels, but that you can'tell from footage, you actually have to play the game it ints (close to) end state. so i think its to early to discuss that.

So i'll tell of a few of the builds im giong to be intrested in:
Bard Cleric or Bard Ranger Depending on how augments work, and the exact skills of the bard, i want to have a bard that uses buffs, with hopefully healing atached. (Bard Cleric) or offensive / crowdcontrol abilities Bard / Ranger. Aestetics wise i would prefere to be able to use a spear or a bow for this. Preferably Vaelune

Rogue / Bard with a bow/crossbow, so i can use offensive abilities while positioning, and use movembent / crowdcontrol / buff? with bard augmentations and use stealth. Pvp orientated towards group ambushes / clear hostile groups in our controlled dungeons / raids will most likely require racial or weapon augments to attach bow / crossbow to abilties and bardic augments for most other stuff.

Tank /Cleric or Tank/ Bard: Offtank alt, Sometimes you just can't find a tank for some content, and you just want to hop into it yourself, i want a tank to have abilities that protect my party members as much as i can, so one of those secondaries will most likely be suitable for me. This one will require the least amount of unique augments, as long as its some kind of support augment.

Cleric / ??? I haven't decided on what kind of cleric i want to make yet. For this one it doesn't really matter how the augments will be, i'll be able to make a healer regardless.

@Everyone has different expectations wishes and intrests for ashes. Some concerns that people have will not concern others. Some players might not have all the information, or outdated information, or even wrong information. Some even interpret things that is known differently. Their is no right or wrong here.

Its only trough discussions that we can gather what someone else might be intrested in, or how they view things. You don't have to agree. In fact if everyone agreed on everyhing, the perfect game would already exist.

Kesthely

bloodprophet wrote: »

[

Seeking to understand your thoughts.
Is your primary concern that the augments will allow you to move so far from their primary archetype choice that the first archetype choice becomes moot?
or is it that people will be confused that when they hit level 25 and pick their second archetype that picking fighter first then mage second will not allow them to play mage vs fighter?

Is your underlying concern that you cannot change your primary archetype?

Not moot, but that you might want to have picked a different Primary archtype. I'll give an example. We know that the mage has a blink spell, if you invest points in it, eventually you deal damage on departure, and blink away. you create range. Most mages will want to play a ranged character, but some might not want to.

A fighter with mage archtype does exactly the opposite, it changes its charge ability to a blink like ability, but instead of dealing the damage on departure the damage is at the arrival. instead of creating range, they close range. Depending on the other augments this can be amplified. a standard mage has meteor swarm, an aoe effect with a duration, its a ranged ability. A fighter might have a whirlwind with a bleed effect, an close range aoe ability with a duration. Augment it with an elemental damage type (fire) might make the attack pure magical, and in essence transform it into a close range aoe that basically deals the same initial / damage over time as the normal mage ability. however one mage is specialized on fighting ranged, the other is specialized on fighting in Melee. They both need a completely different Primary archetype.

bloodprophet

Agreed one is a mage the other is a fighter.

Are you looking then for the ability to change primaries?
Alts will be a thing and if you want to do a whirlwind fire fire dame vs bleed gonna need to have fighter as your primary.

daveywavey

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

10 levels in wow out of 60: 16% in to leveling
25 levels in aoc out of 50: 50% in to leveling
Imagine not chosing a spec in wow until level 30

The level cap for a Free Trial account is (or was) 20 though, right? That's half-way through, where someone will be deciding whether or not they like the game enough to pay.

Enigmatic Sage

daveywavey wrote: »

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

10 levels in wow out of 60: 16% in to leveling
25 levels in aoc out of 50: 50% in to leveling
Imagine not chosing a spec in wow until level 30

The level cap for a Free Trial account is (or was) 20 though, right? That's half-way through, where someone will be deciding whether or not they like the game enough to pay.

it doesn't have to be a free trial account. I could log on and level to 20 as much as I want without a sub. You can still play but you just do not gain experience again for that character until you subscribe. This is what I found out when I did it. You can not log onto any character above level 20 though.

@SirChancelot11 percentages do not really matter when compared to time it takes to level. 16% of levels vs 50% of levels are irrelevant. As mentioned earlier, most vertical progression is a long tutorial on how to play your character with period integrations of skills/augmentations

Kesthely

bloodprophet wrote: »

Agreed one is a mage the other is a fighter.

Are you looking then for the ability to change primaries?
Alts will be a thing and if you want to do a whirlwind fire fire dame vs bleed gonna need to have fighter as your primary.

No but if you want to have a certain playstyle as many people do, hence we have multiple classes, its going to be annoying to find out that the playstyle you wanted isn't obtainable, by your primary archetype, but would have been obtainable by another one.

@SirChancelot11 @Noaani @daveywavey lvl 10 in wow is obtainable within 15 mins, but or first time users probably within an hour or 2. This is far from the 20+ hours it will most likely require to level up to 25, only to find out that the thing you were interested in isn't what you expected.

Aerlana

did not read all (far from it). sorry if already said after what i read

The problem pointed here is "because of secundary archetype getting on lvl 25, people should spend 30 hours before doing a new character because this change all the game ? "

1) I am not sure augment are se deep change... For what we already know, it remains just variation from main archetype.

All fighters will remain fighters. Some will get some mitigation (from tank) other elemental damages (mage) or maybe some cc, or self healing, etc. Their skills will remain around same.
The charge with mage augment can become a fire charge (leaving a trail of fire doing damages) or a blink to the target (instant so). But the skill will be the same basic thing : you are on point A and end on point B which is close to your target.

It won't be such big changes.

2) If the problem is the change from the augments, it mostly can be solved by changing second archetype, which is possible. If no one of the 8 secundary archetype are ok, i think the problem will probably be more the main archetype choice... and so, it can be spot before lvl 25.

If you fantasize about what the fighter-mage could be, thinking "ok, warrior is not fun now, but will be wonderfull with mage" you are on fault for your own disappointment. For what we know now, augments wont transform the character into a new one. Only small part will change, and a part where you have to chose between 8 ways, ways you can change.

Then comes weapon and weapon skills, remember you can be a mage with 2 handed sword and heavy armor... And 2 handed sword wont have same weapon skill than the potion launcher. and it will change how you play your mage... or your fighter, etc. This a thing that seems mostly forgotten in the character identity. And is, i think more important than augments : 2 handed sword = melee. potion laucnher = range.

Today, lvling in MMORPG means nothing, it is just some hours to spend before begining the game. Lvling in all MMORPG i tried those last 10 years are just timespending. And little of learning curve, getting one skill after another (to not have ot understand all at once). All done in once straight travel with no savour. A mmorpg with no more lvling, you spawn max lvl with all skill would be the same.

The lvl25 will be a big step of improvement of charactere, when you have a new tool to customize it. and having a real feel of character improvment, and progression. It is only a psychological thing, yes, totally. But not a useless one.

Azherae

And if it's the case that the leveling process is just a way to pass time before endgame, levels 1-25 will be a simplistic cakewalk, changing to Spellsword is 'basically the same as Weaponmaster' and it's your fault if you somehow didn't think to be a Battlemage, and so on, that's easy to explain to potential players.

But that's still just 'I don't think this game is going to be this way, so your concerns are pointless'.

Aren't some of y'all relatively high/top players in other games? Have you never 'had the irritation of practicing a character for months only to get nerfed so bad you had to change to and practice a new one'? (I wish there was a different way to ask this question because I know it is just gonna get that dismissive 'it's not the same' answer, but I can't be bothered, so I'll accept whatever comes)

Gaul_

Noaani wrote: »

That wasn't a quote from me.

Oh my mistake, that should have said Kesthely

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, you need to first of all learn about the node, PvP and caravan systems. These are likely what we will spend the first 20 or so levels doing, and each of them is more important than secondary classes and augments.

Then, when people understand those systems (or when they should understand them), it is time to introduce a new system.

If Intrepid were to move teaching about augments to level 10 instead of level 25, do you propose they teach about the node, PvP and caravan systems in that first 10 levels, leaving players with no real time to let the information sink in, teach about them after augments and such, leaving players exposed to people that already understand these systems, or teach them all at the same time so players have no idea what is going on at all?

While the node system is the most important part of the game, the world revolves around it, as a player you don't need to know anything about the nodes to be able to do well untill you want to master one profession and need a freehold.

There is more to them than that.

You should be learning about nodes first thing because otherwise those that do not understand the system will spend basically all of their in game time until they do figure it out just floundering about.

The node system is MUCH more than just housing and crafting, and in fact these are not even the first aspects of it that the game should communicate to players.

The first thing players should learn about the node system is how it changes the games content.

This is FAR more important than learning about something an individual player can change themselves (secondary class), as an individual player has no real impact on nodes, yet the state of nodes has an impact on that player.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

lvl 10 in wow is obtainable within 15 mins, but or first time users probably within an hour or 2. This is far from the 20+ hours it will most likely require to level up to 25, only to find out that the thing you were interested in isn't what you expected.

I addressed this in the post that I bought it up in

Noaani wrote: »

I'm sure you'll say there is a big difference between level 10 in WoW and level 25 in Ashes. This is true, there are. However, there is almost nothing at all that WoW needs to teach new players because the game is as bland as they come.

When you have nothing else that you need to show players, you may as well get started on that one easy to understand thing early on.

When you have many things to show players, you need to space them out a little.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

And if it's the case that the leveling process is just a way to pass time before endgame, levels 1-25 will be a simplistic cakewalk, changing to Spellsword is 'basically the same as Weaponmaster' and it's your fault if you somehow didn't think to be a Battlemage, and so on, that's easy to explain to potential players.

But that's still just 'I don't think this game is going to be this way, so your concerns are pointless'.

Aren't some of y'all relatively high/top players in other games? Have you never 'had the irritation of practicing a character for months only to get nerfed so bad you had to change to and practice a new one'? (I wish there was a different way to ask this question because I know it is just gonna get that dismissive 'it's not the same' answer, but I can't be bothered, so I'll accept whatever comes)

In many games, that is exactly what the leveling process is.

This is because the game is simplistic, and developers need not teach players anything.

Ashes has a lot of things it needs to teach players, to the leveling process (probably 1 through to 40) is going to be largely about teach players game mechanics.

When you create a new character, a mage as an example, you spend your first 25 levels playing the base class. Then you pick your secondary.

While it may well be that you don't like the secondary you picked, if you enjoyed the base class then at least you know there is a class in there that you will enjoy.

On the other hand, if you didn't enjoy that base class, it is probably best to reroll a new character with a new base class, as you are quite likely to not really enjoy any of them.

Also, while you may dismiss peoples opinions as saying 'I don't think this game is going to be this way, so your concerns are pointless', please keep in mind that your concerns are basically just 'I do think this game is going to be this way'.

Essentially, you are projecting what you think will happen, and see an issue, Others here are projecting what they think will happen, and see no issue. You can't dismiss other peoples take on how the game will go just because it is their take, without then also dismissing your own take on how you think the game will go due to it only being your take.

SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

lvl 10 in wow is obtainable within 15 mins, but or first time users probably within an hour or 2. This is far from the 20+ hours it will most likely require to level up to 25, only to find out that the thing you were interested in isn't what you expected.

I addressed this in the post that I bought it up in

Noaani wrote: »

I'm sure you'll say there is a big difference between level 10 in WoW and level 25 in Ashes. This is true, there are. However, there is almost nothing at all that WoW needs to teach new players because the game is as bland as they come.

When you have nothing else that you need to show players, you may as well get started on that one easy to understand thing early on.

When you have many things to show players, you need to space them out a little.

That's an assumption on your part. If someone is new to an MMO they're learning how to move, how to pick up and turn in quests, how to use the quest log, and the character interface to equip gear. Sure second nature to us, but that's all learning stuff about the game.

You use mage/bard. But how about mage fighter? That hopefully is two entirely different playstyles that would require you to build your character in a different way. Who what's to spend 20+ hrs learning to be your stereotypical mage when at 25 I'm hopefully switching to an in your face melee battlemage.

And you know my feelings on mage/tank, I'd love to see those augments shift then enough to actually tank content. That again is a huge shift in the way the archtype plays

This is why earlier I said it depends on the scale of what augments can do...

@Enigmatic Sage I want really focusing on the%, I was getting at the huge difference in time investment to determine if you like the way your later game class would feel to play.

George_Black

I agree.
20lv would be better. I plan to go fighter/fighter so I rly dont care, but there are lots of ppl here that dream of more specific classes like summoner/cleric etc etc..

No matter what the result is, switching secondary should be challenging, maybe even require a whole group to complete the quest.

Noaani

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

That's an assumption on your part. If someone is new to an MMO they're learning how to move, how to pick up and turn in quests, how to use the quest log, and the character interface to equip gear. Sure second nature to us, but that's all learning stuff about the game.

You use mage/bard. But how about mage fighter? That hopefully is two entirely different playstyles that would require you to build your character in a different way. Who what's to spend 20+ hrs learning to be your stereotypical mage when at 25 I'm hopefully switching to an in your face melee battlemage.

And you know my feelings on mage/tank, I'd love to see those augments shift then enough to actually tank content. That again is a huge shift in the way the archtype plays

This is why earlier I said it depends on the scale of what augments can do...

Yeah, if someone is new to MMO's they do have some additional learning to do. All of that is usually done in the first two levels though. It isn't stuff that is hard to grasp.

It's actually experienced MMO players that will have a harder time learning the node system, as it isn't really like anything else in any popular games. Since the node system affects which quests you have available, which NPC services you have available, which mobs, dungeons, loot, crafting facilities etc you have available, it needs to be taught to players properly and early.

It is the most important thing Intrepid need to communicate to players.

As to the classes you are talking about - no, they won't play all that different.

Both a mage/bard and a mage/fighter play as if they are mages, because that is what they are. If you want something that plays different, you change the base.

As a point to illustrate this - you could be a mage/bard and I could be a mage/fighter, but if we both use augments from other sources (social organizations, religions, race etc), we could effectively be identical.

Enigmatic Sage

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

lvl 10 in wow is obtainable within 15 mins, but or first time users probably within an hour or 2. This is far from the 20+ hours it will most likely require to level up to 25, only to find out that the thing you were interested in isn't what you expected.

I addressed this in the post that I bought it up in

Noaani wrote: »

I'm sure you'll say there is a big difference between level 10 in WoW and level 25 in Ashes. This is true, there are. However, there is almost nothing at all that WoW needs to teach new players because the game is as bland as they come.

@Enigmatic Sage I want really focusing on the%, I was getting at the huge difference in time investment to determine if you like the way your later game class would feel to play.

I clearly didn't get that from your explanation by the way it was worded. For myself reading it, it was comparing two different games leveling systems and specific class choice progression based on percentages for when to integrate specialisations and augmentations based around percentages to max level rather than time spent to get to those points in the game. Getting to level 10 in retail WoW is rather quick compared to the assumptions that getting to level 25 in AoC would be the same pace.

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