Controversial: Augmentation might be a bad idea if set to 25 and later

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

After much discussions i've included a list of what different people want augments to be able to do:
Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects

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Comments

Aerlana

Kesthely wrote: »

The majority of people will not spend 20+ hours (if to lvl 25 the average time to level is shy of 1 hour) or 50+ hours (if the average time to level up is 2 hours) a second time if they are not satisfied the fist time of what the end playstyle is.

Circular discussion... because you already said it, and i answered (and will answer) "if you dislike fighter and continue to play it, and finally continue to dislike it... your own, personnal fault"

And you ALWAYS miss one point : weapon choices... you don't even consider this could be a bigger choice that secundary archetype.

I mean, if you want a magical range fighter, take a wand or orb,
Weapons will have skills to invest points in also... and any class can use any weapon or armor.

A fighter with orb is this fighter with range magical damages you take as example, and can be played from... level... 1
On the other side, you can also take a mage, give it a two handed mace or sword, a heavy armor.

You are clearly focusing too much about the "character is full only at lvl25" with the theory that each of 8 class will have a specific gameplay different from the 7 others. but without even considering the whole game. ...

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

Your example is a bit exaggerated as well, while it is true that you can suddenly see an increase in level you will probably not see a doubling of level AND a entirely different creature type.

That kind of thing absolutely will happen. it is absolutely probable that parts of the world will go from only being influenced by a level 2 military node, to the very next day also being influenced by a level 6 economic node. It could also happen in reverse where a level 0 node in a metropolis ZoI goes from being influenced by that metropolis, to the very next day having no nodes influencing it at all.

I think that your misconceptualizing the influencing system

Every node is given purview over a predefined geographic area called a Zone of influence (ZOI). Player activity within the ZOI is weighted and counted toward a particular node’s advancement.[2]

What your thinking about is vassal nodes:

Vassal nodes first apply any experience earned to their own deficit (see Node atrophy). It then applies excess experience earned to its parent node.[42]
If the parent node advances, the vassal is once again able to advance.[8]

In short your premise will never happen. When a node becomes a vassal of another node, it locks the growth to below that of the master. xp gained in that area is used to not delevel it. Only if theres room for the node to grow then it can continue to grow. The area of the node (its zone of influence) is still corresponding to the vassal node, and does NOT change unless the node changes in rank.

What they do do however is: Vassal nodes give excess experience to their parent node and may have their own vassals;

Noaani wrote: »

There will be massive changes in population in some areas as node influence changes - that is inevitable with the node system.

There will not. Your conception of nodes is incorrect, as shown above. Node progression is gradual, later stages take weeks. Node destruction might devaluate an area and make the available content weaker, but thats abut as drastic as it will be.

Noaani wrote: »

Your dismissive attitude towards players having an understanding of the node system in Ashes (literally the only thing that sets Ashes apart from other MMO's) is about like saying that all players need to know about subclasses is that they get some abilities, and they can use them to kill stuff or help their friends, and they can change their subclass if they don't like it.

If you are going to be dismissive of the node system and players understanding of it, you need to be equally dismissive of the class system and players understanding of it.

Honestly, I think your dismissing attitude towards the node system stems from a total lack of comprehension as to the impact it will at times have on the population of a given part of the world.

As show above, your own comprehension of node system is flawed. Because of that your input has significantly devalued. If you don't understand one of its core systems, your input on another core system is meaningless.

Kushinade

You do know there's another option neither has put out to this point? The prologue.

There's some standards in which a prologue has you at a stronger version of you than what you begin with.
You can then pick your primary, get a feel for it, then right before the 'end' of the prologue you augment your secondary. Have all the options available with a 'standardized' template ready to go with full explanation and a training dummy.

You're then brought into the 'real' game after that in your weakened (primary lvl 1) state and have to regain your former glory. You're not locked into that standard and can change your gameplay to your prefered style.
Again, this works for both the argument that augments either a:) won't change much or b:) can make significant changes.

As to an example of a character I'd like to build it's either the Summoner/Cleric (S/C) or Cleric/Summoner (C/S.

If the augments act like version A:
S/C - Pet and damage spells may provide small heals to group as part of dps rotation.
C/S - Heals may spawn temporary pets that does healing.

The first is basically a minion form of a shadowpriest from WoW, the second is a healer with splashy effects.

If augments act like version B:

S/C - pet and damage spells, can convert some into healing trading damage for utility. Pets can heal others in an area around them at the cost of a % of their life forcing the player to 'target' some of their damage spells to convert extra healing to keep it alive or turn one spell into a healing version. The pet could also deliver a portion of it's damage TO the player giving you a reason to adopt the above version's shadow priest style format for either receiving or dealing damage in return for higher dps from said summons.

C/S - Reduces their overall healing ability to inbue them into a pet. The pet puts a debuff up that when struck by a cleric's damage ability heals damaged targets based on what you give up to the pet itself. The Cleric still has to actively heal and act like a cleric but can go more 'offensive' while doing their job.

The best i can say for these two classes is dps focused terra mystic for the first, and the second is a odd divination priest from WoW with a minion.

If the game plays in version A, then yes there's very little changes. There's no need to have the skills earlier than 25. I'd be happy to play the 'shadow summoner' and be able to provide a little utility while i blow things up. On the other hand I'd feel nothing but disappointment with the 'splashy' healer.

Version B though? There's more changes that would affect your decision making making your class unique and customizable. I'd also happily for WEEKS spend time fine tuning what skills I'd augment to get the style i prefer. I'd also have to balance new skills with augments. For something like this, this is a DRASTIC thing to get at lvl 25 so some type of lower level would make sense for gaining the secondary class feature.

For the c/s gaining a pet to help you out while grinding outside of a dungeon is insanely useful. And if done right can be a practice target for healing others (aka you have to target and heal the pet, it won't stay alive long enough to tank as good as a s/c).

To spend 25 levels to get there though? By then you won't care enough about the feature similar to terra NOW putting the tankable pet at level 60 vs lvl 8-10 like it used to be.

In that ones case it's a good idea to start discussing now how to implement it. I'm even okay with fully unlocking the features at 25, including template changes. Again you can do something like you have the "ability" to unlock a secondary at level 10-15 but if you do you can not unlock or change it until 25. You'd spend skill points and augments as you grow. If you remain 'pure' till 25 you'd have all the power from the prologue at your fingertips anyways and double down on your archetype primary first and foremost. If you decide to dilute it you may have a few less skills EARLY that could impact your gameplay yet at 25 still have the full range. To explain what i mean by impact: The C/S decides they want to spend points for that companion. They now have an easier time solo, however in a dungeon they would have to spend more time healing individually because they didn't have the points left for gaining aoe heals and augmenting it for those occasions.

That is also acceptable. You have plus and minus for your builds. Doesn't mean the cleric is bad, due to the added companion they kill quicker meaning less damage to have to heal. If they augment the damage > heal as well, the cleric may have crappy dps but extra dps is still extra dps. They play like they want to.

Again, for me, the second is VASTLY more interesting. It means every class , while having an overall style will play similarly. A s/c will have a more powerful minion that can defend/attack but has backup pocket heals, however if the pet goes so does the majority of it's dps. A c/s has more overt heals and a minion that either is good for defense or attack, not both. However if the pet is destroyed the healer still heals just as well but doesn't have that backup utility.

Again these are examples and until we actually have the full on samples to be tested we don't know which we'll get. Either way a prologue fixes both issues. If i like the shadow priest style but not the splashy healer, I know if beforehand and can make that judgement. If it's the second more convoluted style, I still know how each performs early and make a decision. I still have the option of changing my mind later anyways.

That's just my take though.

Kesthely

A prologue Dream or training room(s) could work out for what is needed. It does however have as much benefits as it has drawbacks. I don't know if it would fit in Intrepids design

Kesthely

Aerlana wrote: »

And you ALWAYS miss one point : weapon choices... you don't even consider this could be a bigger choice that secundary archetype.

I did not miss weapon skills at all, in one of my earlier posts i advocated for allowing to test with augments with racial or weapon augments in the example.

However, nothing yet is known about weapon skills. You an equip any weapon / armor already. What will the weapon skills do, will they be active skills like class skills or passive skill designed for boosting one type or certain types of weapons? since their is nothing known about weapon skills yet, there is no knowledge of how there going to interact in class playstyles, if they work as active, passive or augments, and if they can in turn be augmented. However by my understanding, weapon skills will become available from level 1 as well. so you can experiment with that. In that regard having weapon skills adds nothing to the discussion;; "Is it wise to place the end feeling of how your class will play after 20+ hours" .

Sylvanar

Its a game. That too an MMORPG, so basically when any new player commits to the game they are agreeing to learn about an entire new world. If they are going to become discouraged just because some spells got modified then they are welcome to quit. Augmented spells can easily be treated as new spells. Problem solved. Not to mention if someone is going to be so picky they can do their research before subscribing.

This is just lazy talk from OP.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

As show above, your own comprehension of node system is flawed. Because of that your input has significantly devalued. If you don't understand one of its core systems, your input on another core system is meaningless.

See, you are taking the breakdown the Wiki has provided, and not actually considered the implications of it at all.

Imagine you are walking through a level 0 node. It is way out in the middle of no where, no nodes at all are influencing it. The content is likely appropriate for level 1 to 15 or so (all nodes are level 0 at launch, so this is something we can safely assume).

However, it is on the very edge of the ZoI of a level 5 node.

Now imagine that level 5 node is leveled up to level 6. All of a sudden, your level 0 node is under the influence of a metropolis. Since high level content only exists within a metropolis ZoI, it is now safe to assume this nodes content could be level 50.

The level of content within a node isn't only dictated by the level of the node, it is also dictated by all nodes that influence it. As such, any level 0 node on the edge of a level 5 node when it levels up up level 6 absolutely will see a massive jump in the level of the content in that area.

If content within a node were only dictated by the level of the node it is in, that would result in about 5% of the game at the most being content for level capped players. You should be able to look at just that one piece of information and realize that your assumptions are incorrect here.

It is this whole system (what you are insanely breaking down in to nodes, vassal nodes, node influence and what ever else) that are all just a part of the games node system. That system is what needs to be taught to players early on.

Kesthely

Edit: Revision based on new information

Either you can't read or you don't understand the word predetermined. a zone of influence (the area the node influences) is predetermined. it doesn't change. If it goes up or down it only influences that part. If your in an adjacent node, that node has its own zone of influence. that one also goes up and down. That node doesn't need to be or become a vassal node. Vassal nodes are formed by the mayors due to politics. They don't have to be adjacent, Allied Vassals can be on the other side of the world. However there are 3 additional things that you need to keep in mind.
1) if nodes are adjacent one will always be at least one tier below the other
2) if the node is a vassal node it will give its surplus xp to the sovereign node if it doesn't have room to grow
itself.
3) Well placed vassal nodes can severly hinder a regions growth and thus assist in wars that way.

Noaani wrote: »

If content within a node were only dictated by the level of the node it is in, that would result in about 5% of the game at the most being content for level capped players. You should be able to look at just that one piece of information and realize that your assumptions are incorrect here.

Again conjecture, nothing is said if only rank 7 nodes deliver end game content, lower ranks could give it as well. And even if only rank 7 did, the entire premise is to incite people to fight and attack nodes. If only 5% of the world is end game content, you better fight to make sure its in your area. Either by attacking the current node, or defending it.

Edit Clarification: End game content, doesn't nessicarily mean max level mobs / dungeons. Endgame content can include any activities that require you to perform well in those activities. Because of the heavy aspect of crafting in game, and items by the looks of it require multiple tiers of materials, these matarials can come from lower nodes, and still be "end game content" in the form that max level players and guilds will compete over the resources of these nodes.

The system your describing would make 6 pyramids on the server of nodes with each layer a lower node circle around it. The server wouldn't ever change, because there is no need to attack.

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Either you can't read or you don't understand the word predetermined. a zone of influence (the area the node influences) is predetermined. it doesn't change.

There are two terms at play here, both have been interchangeably called "zone of influence" by Steven.

The first is the node, and the land that belongs to that node. This area does not change - land that belongs to a node always belongs to that node.

The second is the vassal system. A node extends its zone of influence out as it levels up, bringing other nodes in as vassals.

Both of these terms have been called zone of influence by Intrepid, though each is its own thing.

The content within a nodes direct control is affected by both of these ZoI mechanics.

Top end content is only available with metropolis nodes, but it is not limited to that metropolis nodes area that it directly controls. The top end content associated with a metropolis node will be located on the fringes of the area it has spread its influence over (as in, it will be present in the area around its vassal nodes).

Again, you seem to be under-estimating the node system and the impact it will have on the game.

Kesthely wrote: »

Again conjecture, nothing is said if only rank 7 nodes deliver end game content, lower ranks could give it as well.

Nodes have 6 stages, not seven - though there is a stage 0.

And yes, it has been confirmed that top end content will require a metropolis.

If you want to say that Intrepid intends for players to fight over access to top end content, all that would mean is that it is even more important that players gain an early understanding of the node system, and that learning about subclasses is even less important as there is no point in knowing the finer points of your class if you have no content to use it on.

Kesthely

Edit: Revision based on new information

@Noaani Again your mixing up Node, Vassal, and this time Castle systems. Nodes do not extend zones of influence. Its a predetermined area. Nodes do not automatically gain Vassals, these are formed between alliances and declared by mayors. Castles do "enslave" nodes into Vassals. This one is automatic.

As a hierarchy you have

1) Castle, Enslaves all of the nodes in its region Can add tax to everything in the region
2) Nodes Grow on their own, Can have vassals, Can add tax to everything in its zone of influence Extends its zown of influence and can create vassals due to that.
3) Vassal node Can never grow beyond its parent node, instead donates excess xp to parent node. All other aspects of nodes apply, including vassal nodes having vassals of their own.

Regardless, the AVERAGE player, will never be in a position to govern a node or a castle. for the AVERAGE player, the governing systems are irrelevant. They are only interested in: How much tax do i have to pay, is the area developed enough for my activities, Do the ones managing this area spend enough resources and have enough manpower to defend the area. And is he node type beneficial to my playstyle

That you want a very detailed explanation in game about all of its systems, doesn't mean that the average player wants, or needs that.

While i agree that in game explanation of the mechanics can be Is desirable, its only desirable for those who want to pursue any role in that process. Therefore such a tutorial should be optional, and should be accessible when you want to participate, not at an arbitrary point in time.

Secondary Archetypes however is a non optional game mechanic. Currently once you hit lvl 25 you will have to deal with it. At the time of implementation, you need to have some sort of explanation / tutorial. And as stated many times before in this topic, i'm of the personal opinion, that it might not be a good idea to have this at a pace where you've spend dozens of hours on your character development already.

Aerlana

Kesthely wrote: »

In that regard having weapon skills adds nothing to the discussion;; "Is it wise to place the end feeling of how your class will play after 20+ hours" .

"because i don't know anything about it, i don't care, and don't consider it as part of the question about gameplay"
... and
"on the other side, while we know little about how impactfull augments will be, we have to have them as soon as possible,"

... Really dude ? You litteraly chose what has its place in the discussion depending on what you want have its place.

It is because we know little about augments and nothing about weapon skill that we can't speak how impactfull, gameplay changer secundary archetype augment will be... And so because of this we are not able to know if 25 is too late, too soon or good... But because you want it earlier, you totally dismiss all other unknown elements

You can't discuss a subject (here, class gameplay) with only part of components and dismissing all other (strangely, all element that maybe could make your topic pointless...)

and... about Zone of Influence : they expand and a node ZOI can influence many other node's ZOI.
And just to correct one point :

Kesthely wrote: »

That node doesn't need to be or become a vassal node. Vassal nodes are formed by the mayors due to politics. They don't have to be adjacent, Allied Vassals can be on the other side of the world.

vassal node can't be on the other side of the world... because even metropolis ZOI can't cover the whole world
players can't decide which node is vassal of which node...

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

Noaani Again your mixing up Node, Vassal, and this time Castle systems. Nodes do not extend zones of influence. Its a predetermined area. Nodes do not automatically gain Vassals, these are formed between alliances and declared by mayors. Castles do "enslave" nodes into Vassals. This one is automatic.

Hold up dude, that is some serious misinformation you have going on there.

I was under the impression you were just missing a few key points with the node system, but you seem to have made up your own entirely factitious system here.

I'll run over a few points for you.

The more advanced the node is, the larger its ZOI becomes.[1]

Less advanced nodes (referred to as vassal nodes) that fall within a more advanced node's ZOI can still gain XP, but must remain at a lower advancement stage than the dominant node.[45]

The vassal system begins when a node hits Village (stage 3), but neighboring nodes starting from Expedition (stage 1) also block the growth of their immediate neighbors.[48][49]

The territory expansion algorithm takes into account the nearest coast, neighboring nodes, and the heatmap of players in surrounding areas over the last weeks or month.[50]

This is how vassals work. Nodes do not decide to enter in to a vassal relationship with each other, that relationship is forced on them.

Kesthely wrote: »

Regardless, the AVERAGE player, will never be in a position to govern a node or a castle. for the AVERAGE player, the governing systems are irrelevant. They are only interested in: How much tax do i have to pay, is the area developed enough for my activities, Do the ones managing this area spend enough resources and have enough manpower to defend the area. And is he node type beneficial to my playstyle

I am talking about the node system, not node government.

Before players can ask "is this node suited to my needs", they first of all need to be informed what a node is, that players build and destroy nodes, that nodes affect the level and type of the content in the region, that node level is a thing, that the level of neighboring nodes can block your another nodes advancement, how node leadership is determined for each of the node types, what services are available at each node type, social organizations and religion, the list goes on.

The node system as a whole is significantly larger than you seem to want to admit. You seem to think it is just the actual town, leadership and services - it is much more than that.

Dolyem

This discussion is all over the place...but at least the current system will also delay the min/max community for a bit to allow for the game to stay interesting for an even longer period(a fresh start) of time until the classes inevitably are broken down to a science

SirChancelot

Dolyem wrote: »

This discussion is all over the place...but at least the current system will also delay the min/max community for a bit to allow for the game to stay interesting for an even longer period(a fresh start) of time until the classes inevitably are broken down to a science

Thank you for saying what I was thinking

JustVine

Dolyem wrote: »

This discussion is all over the place...but at least the current system will also delay the min/max community for a bit to allow for the game to stay interesting for an even longer period(a fresh start) of time until the classes inevitably are broken down to a science

How does it delay min maxing exactly?

Kesthely

@Noaani After wanting to reply i looked something up, and noticed that my information indeed was incorrect. Give me some time to re-evaluate based on this new information, and some time to retract some of my posts where needed.

SirChancelot

Kesthely wrote: »

@Noaani After wanting to reply i looked something up, and noticed that my information indeed was incorrect. Give me some time to re-evaluate based on this new information, and some time to retract some of my posts where needed.

Respect and maturity on the internet?
Weird

Dolyem

JustVine wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

This discussion is all over the place...but at least the current system will also delay the min/max community for a bit to allow for the game to stay interesting for an even longer period(a fresh start) of time until the classes inevitably are broken down to a science

How does it delay min maxing exactly?

It will take far more time to delve into every archetype

Kesthely

After re-evaluating, i do stand by most of my opinions.

I still believe that lvl 25 might be to long for the secondary introduction.
I still believe that the introduction to Nodes should be on a timetable that you choose instead of a linear "you have to do this in this order"
I still believe that not everyone will need / wants to know everything about the node system, since for normal players a lot doesn't need to be known.

But i also agree that the node system is far more complex and requires a lot longer explanation then i previously assumed. I do believe that what should be told or known will be different for a lot of people, and that explaining the systems is going to be arduous. What information needs to be told deserves an entire topic of its own.

@Noaani I've redacted the 2 last 2 posts of mine, if your grieving about a specific comment earlier let me know, and i'll redact it if nessicary.

About zoi's i still wonder something, which i couldn't get a defining answer to; if anyone knows this please link the corresponding source.
Since every node has its own Zoi, if a parent nodes Zoi, encompasses the Vassal nodes Zoi entirely, does it actually effect the level of the mobs it spawns, and if so in what way. I would imagine if the Zoi of the parent node encompasses other nodes, the type of parent node changes the type of quests available, the node itself is primarily responsible for the overall level of the zone.

JustVine

Dolyem wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

This discussion is all over the place...but at least the current system will also delay the min/max community for a bit to allow for the game to stay interesting for an even longer period(a fresh start) of time until the classes inevitably are broken down to a science

How does it delay min maxing exactly?

It will take far more time to delve into every archetype

How will it achieve that? And delay it as opposed to what system?

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