Should There Be a Wait Time on Re-Selling Market Items, to Fight Inflation?

Yours truly realized that I was part of the problem, in SWTOR - which in this past year has seen *HORRIBLE* inflation: In "flipping" items on the market, we artificially drive up the prices of items on the player-markets.

It feels like this won't be as much of an issue in AoC, since the markets will be localized - but I'm predicting the norm will be for players to make trips to any Economic Node-cities anyways, when searching the markets for what they want.

If we put a wait on re-selling items bought from the markets, it won't *entirely* stop market-flippers - but it would discourage it. Got the idea from a video I watched about cities right now that are doing this on real estate, since it costs money to keep an empty property; it discourages house-flippers from driving up real estate prices in those cities to un-livable levels.

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Gaul_

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

@Overthrow flipping low-end items doesn't necessarily cause wide-spread inflation. Even in SWTOR, most of the more-basic crafting materials are very affordable. But that's not typically what people are trading for/seeking; They're in there for the higher-end items. You figure your basics out pretty quickly, and THEN you're in the market for better-looking stuff. Those of us playing the AH typically identify those items early - and to the point of my OP - are the reasons that you're paying 50mil for an item, instead of the 10mil we found it for; It's not over-supply that causes higher prices.

Isn't it natural that items which are in high demand are higher priced in the market? If Person A posts an item at a low price then Person B buys that items and relists at a higher price which Person C eventually buys-- there is no inflationary effect on the market. There is nothing undesirable occurring.

daveywavey

Overthrow wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

@Overthrow flipping low-end items doesn't necessarily cause wide-spread inflation. Even in SWTOR, most of the more-basic crafting materials are very affordable. But that's not typically what people are trading for/seeking; They're in there for the higher-end items. You figure your basics out pretty quickly, and THEN you're in the market for better-looking stuff. Those of us playing the AH typically identify those items early - and to the point of my OP - are the reasons that you're paying 50mil for an item, instead of the 10mil we found it for; It's not over-supply that causes higher prices.

Isn't it natural that items which are in high demand are higher priced in the market? If Person A posts an item at a low price then Person B buys that items and relists at a higher price which Person C eventually buys-- there is no inflationary effect on the market. There is nothing undesirable occurring.

The way it usually works in these types of games is:

- Person A posts an item for 100gp
- Person B sees the item listed at 100gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 100gp or 99gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 300gp.
- Person D sees the item listed at 300gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and also posts for 300gp or 299gp to slightly undercut.
- Person E does the same.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 500gp.
- Person A sees how much they could have made originally, and posts their next at 500gp.
- Person F sees the item listed at 500gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 500gp or 499gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and ......

Enigmatic Sage

daveywavey wrote: »

Overthrow wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

@Overthrow flipping low-end items doesn't necessarily cause wide-spread inflation. Even in SWTOR, most of the more-basic crafting materials are very affordable. But that's not typically what people are trading for/seeking; They're in there for the higher-end items. You figure your basics out pretty quickly, and THEN you're in the market for better-looking stuff. Those of us playing the AH typically identify those items early - and to the point of my OP - are the reasons that you're paying 50mil for an item, instead of the 10mil we found it for; It's not over-supply that causes higher prices.

Isn't it natural that items which are in high demand are higher priced in the market? If Person A posts an item at a low price then Person B buys that items and relists at a higher price which Person C eventually buys-- there is no inflationary effect on the market. There is nothing undesirable occurring.

The way it usually works in these types of games is:

- Person A posts an item for 100gp
- Person B sees the item listed at 100gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 100gp or 99gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 300gp.
- Person D sees the item listed at 300gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and also posts for 300gp or 299gp to slightly undercut.
- Person E does the same.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 500gp.
- Person A sees how much they could have made originally, and posts their next at 500gp.
- Person F sees the item listed at 500gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 500gp or 499gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and ......

been there! lol

that's even before we know how easily currency is acquired, node markets varying from node to node and biome to biome with resource values and obtainability. Players are going to grind for money, play the markets and buy gold if they can/have to, those results are fairly common as inflation progresses. Many players and guilds are going to be in it for themselves relatively so I can definitely see inflation being an issue.

Gaul_

daveywavey wrote: »

Overthrow wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

@Overthrow flipping low-end items doesn't necessarily cause wide-spread inflation. Even in SWTOR, most of the more-basic crafting materials are very affordable. But that's not typically what people are trading for/seeking; They're in there for the higher-end items. You figure your basics out pretty quickly, and THEN you're in the market for better-looking stuff. Those of us playing the AH typically identify those items early - and to the point of my OP - are the reasons that you're paying 50mil for an item, instead of the 10mil we found it for; It's not over-supply that causes higher prices.

Isn't it natural that items which are in high demand are higher priced in the market? If Person A posts an item at a low price then Person B buys that items and relists at a higher price which Person C eventually buys-- there is no inflationary effect on the market. There is nothing undesirable occurring.

The way it usually works in these types of games is:

- Person A posts an item for 100gp
- Person B sees the item listed at 100gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 100gp or 99gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 300gp.
- Person D sees the item listed at 300gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and also posts for 300gp or 299gp to slightly undercut.
- Person E does the same.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 500gp.
- Person A sees how much they could have made originally, and posts their next at 500gp.
- Person F sees the item listed at 500gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 500gp or 499gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and ......

Lol Yeah that's the complicated version. Doesn't change the point though: nothing undesirable is happening in those scenarios. If Person C is wrong about what the price should be then they will lose that bet.

Enigmatic Sage

Overthrow wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Overthrow wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

@Overthrow flipping low-end items doesn't necessarily cause wide-spread inflation. Even in SWTOR, most of the more-basic crafting materials are very affordable. But that's not typically what people are trading for/seeking; They're in there for the higher-end items. You figure your basics out pretty quickly, and THEN you're in the market for better-looking stuff. Those of us playing the AH typically identify those items early - and to the point of my OP - are the reasons that you're paying 50mil for an item, instead of the 10mil we found it for; It's not over-supply that causes higher prices.

Isn't it natural that items which are in high demand are higher priced in the market? If Person A posts an item at a low price then Person B buys that items and relists at a higher price which Person C eventually buys-- there is no inflationary effect on the market. There is nothing undesirable occurring.

The way it usually works in these types of games is:

- Person A posts an item for 100gp
- Person B sees the item listed at 100gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 100gp or 99gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 300gp.
- Person D sees the item listed at 300gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and also posts for 300gp or 299gp to slightly undercut.
- Person E does the same.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 500gp.
- Person A sees how much they could have made originally, and posts their next at 500gp.
- Person F sees the item listed at 500gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 500gp or 499gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and ......

Lol Yeah that's the complicated version. Doesn't change the point though: nothing undesirable is happening in those scenarios. If Person C is wrong about what the price should be then they will lose that bet.

it's not complicated, it's inflation and playing the market. It's what people do to make money in many video games like these regardless of bots. Person C could be doing it for several reasons not just because their opinion of the correct price point. It's relatively not desirable for many players as they could now have to pay several times what the expected price point could have or should have been.

To the OP:
With a player controlled market system in place, it's not going to make much of a difference with a resell price. It generally hurts the poorer players rather than the richer one's as they can just wait out to the timer and manipulate the market to their advantage as they could have several items past the time exchanging them in rotation.

It's not a bad suggestion though. @Tyranthraxus

Voidwalkers

(Somewhat off topic) btw ... I'm sure Intrepid has at least one proper economist on their team ... right?

And I think we do need to hear from someone with a proper economics background, since as players we're likely all biased and can only speak for our own interests:
- Market players / traders of coz don't mind flipping. They actually do it sometimes.
- Gatherers won't mind flipping.
- Crafters hate it when materials get flipped. They want their products getting flipped though ...
- Combat focused players probably hate flipping, becoz they'd want low prices on everything, except the loots they're selling.

Gaul_

Voidwalkers wrote: »

- Gatherers won't mind flipping.

This is probably the biggest benefit of not restricting market gameplay. If only one player is buying raw wood then the buy order price is probably pretty low in a frontier market. If 5 trading players are buying wood in the same market the gatherers will make much better gold for their time since they have competing customers.

Some MMOs [looking at you, New World] put arbitrary restrictions on market makers and then wonder why they have a handicapped economy or why everything is extremely centralized in only one city. Thankfully Intrepid Studios seems to be pretty welcoming regarding the trading playstyle.

daveywavey

Overthrow wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Overthrow wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

@Overthrow flipping low-end items doesn't necessarily cause wide-spread inflation. Even in SWTOR, most of the more-basic crafting materials are very affordable. But that's not typically what people are trading for/seeking; They're in there for the higher-end items. You figure your basics out pretty quickly, and THEN you're in the market for better-looking stuff. Those of us playing the AH typically identify those items early - and to the point of my OP - are the reasons that you're paying 50mil for an item, instead of the 10mil we found it for; It's not over-supply that causes higher prices.

Isn't it natural that items which are in high demand are higher priced in the market? If Person A posts an item at a low price then Person B buys that items and relists at a higher price which Person C eventually buys-- there is no inflationary effect on the market. There is nothing undesirable occurring.

The way it usually works in these types of games is:

- Person A posts an item for 100gp
- Person B sees the item listed at 100gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 100gp or 99gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 300gp.
- Person D sees the item listed at 300gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and also posts for 300gp or 299gp to slightly undercut.
- Person E does the same.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 500gp.
- Person A sees how much they could have made originally, and posts their next at 500gp.
- Person F sees the item listed at 500gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 500gp or 499gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and ......

Lol Yeah that's the complicated version. Doesn't change the point though: nothing undesirable is happening in those scenarios. If Person C is wrong about what the price should be then they will lose that bet.

Oh yeah, there's nothing game-breaking/illegal/buggy/glitchy/etc about it. But it does artificially drive up the price for something. But, that's just capitalism at work. If there's someone willing to buy something at that price, why not sell it at that much?! Hopefully there will be enough sellers to even it all out.

Kesthely

I think that there is going to be a major difference in inflation values in Ashes compared to most other MMO's due to the fact that you can loose resources. The reason why inflation rises in most mmo's is that there aren't enough ways to spend your money. In ashes you have a lot of ways to spend money compare to other mmo's eg spending money to become major of a economic node, siege equipment, siege scrolls and way more crafting. Also the fact that most of what you own can be destroyed, will keep prices manageable for longer.

When were talking long term, new rafting recipes, node development, and special events can be used for dumping stored resources. This will make the inflation spike for a bit, but ultimately serves as governing system.

Tyranthraxus

Kesthely wrote: »

I think that there is going to be a major difference in inflation values in Ashes compared to most other MMO's due to the fact that you can loose resources. The reason why inflation rises in most mmo's is that there aren't enough ways to spend your money. In ashes you have a lot of ways to spend money compare to other mmo's eg spending money to become major of a economic node, siege equipment, siege scrolls and way more crafting. Also the fact that most of what you own can be destroyed, will keep prices manageable for longer.

When were talking long term, new rafting recipes, node development, and special events can be used for dumping stored resources. This will make the inflation spike for a bit, but ultimately serves as governing system.

This is a good scenario to hope for - and it also matches what we experienced in Star Wars: Galaxies. SWG had a TON of ways to use your credits, and EVERYTHING in the game eventually had a use - even the junk loot you'd normally sell to a junk dealer was used in combinations to make stat-modifiers. We saw inflation at first - but the last several years of the game, goods largely then stayed around the same price.

Vhaeyne

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

This is a good scenario to hope for - and it also matches what we experienced in Star Wars: Galaxies. SWG had a TON of ways to use your credits, and EVERYTHING in the game eventually had a use - even the junk loot you'd normally sell to a junk dealer was used in combinations to make stat-modifiers. We saw inflation at first - but the last several years of the game, goods largely then stayed around the same price.

Agreed, Lineage 2 was largely the same, and Steven has talked about how he wants to make it so that low-level mats can be used to make materials of the next tier up. A system Lineage 2 sued to ensure that things hold value.

Personally, I think it is silly to put items in your game expecting them to lose value any value over time. The idea that things can be broken down and used to make new things is how the real world works. Nearly everything can be recycled IRL, I imagine it's easier in a world without plastic like Verra.

I just hate seeing items where their only value is to put something on for a few levels or to make to level a profession, then turn into vendor trash. Ideally, everything would have some value. A level 1 sword could be 1/1000th of a base level 50 sword in materials, but that is still something more than just vendor trash.

Schmuky

daveywavey wrote: »

Overthrow wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

@Overthrow flipping low-end items doesn't necessarily cause wide-spread inflation. Even in SWTOR, most of the more-basic crafting materials are very affordable. But that's not typically what people are trading for/seeking; They're in there for the higher-end items. You figure your basics out pretty quickly, and THEN you're in the market for better-looking stuff. Those of us playing the AH typically identify those items early - and to the point of my OP - are the reasons that you're paying 50mil for an item, instead of the 10mil we found it for; It's not over-supply that causes higher prices.

Isn't it natural that items which are in high demand are higher priced in the market? If Person A posts an item at a low price then Person B buys that items and relists at a higher price which Person C eventually buys-- there is no inflationary effect on the market. There is nothing undesirable occurring.

The way it usually works in these types of games is:

- Person A posts an item for 100gp
- Person B sees the item listed at 100gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 100gp or 99gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 300gp.
- Person D sees the item listed at 300gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and also posts for 300gp or 299gp to slightly undercut.
- Person E does the same.
- Person C buys both, and re-lists them for 500gp.
- Person A sees how much they could have made originally, and posts their next at 500gp.
- Person F sees the item listed at 500gp, assumes that's where the price bracket lies, and posts for 500gp or 499gp to slightly undercut.
- Person C buys both, and ......

Only 1 problem with this logic. The item's value comes from its rarity or its uses. So lets say that the item you are talking about falls in 100gp range, due to how often you get it. What you assume in your example is that there is only a limited amount of the item. That is false.

If I see an item that is relatively easy to get, but got its price overinflated to the point where it is worth 5x the normal price, I am gonna go farm that item. And so will a lot of others.

Most recent, I saw this in NW with Fish Oil. Fish Oil was used to complete missions at the town board and get easy xp. And to get it, you just had to fish and salvage the fish. Pretty easy. I rushed fishing and in the first week i sold 1 Fish Oil for 30gp. The next week, people figured out that its overpriced and easy to get, couldn't sell it for more than 15gp. 3 weeks into the game, it went down to 1gp per Fish Oil because sooo many people decided to fish and sell Fish Oil and they were undercutting each other.

You example dosen't take into account the fact that there is a "limitless" supply of items, players just need to go get it. If players from an area decide to not get it or don't have easy access to it, the price will go up.

Some zones should be lacking in certain resources, but abundant in others. This will encourage players to become merchant, buy low in City A and selling high in City B. Which will lead to caravans, which will lead to PvP and content for all involved.

The devs should only step in and figure out the drop rates for items (which the NW devs didnt do and the economy went down in flames). For example, i would imagine that iron ore is very common in the mountains, but severely lacking in the tropical beach. Sure, in the tropical city, you can have iron that is 10x the price (or more) the price of iron in the mountain city, but thats a good system. Supply and demand.

And as a final example of why the drop rates are what matters, is again NW, and i'll use raw hide and iron hide. Raw hide was a resource you get when skinning low level animals (1-25). Is the backbone of all leather crafting in the game. Without it, you cannot use iron hide (which is the drop from lvl 50+ animals), and you needs something insane, like 50 rawhide and 1 iron hide to make something.

And only low level animals dropped rawhide (around 20 per kill) and high level animals dropped iron hide (around 20 each as well) meant that there was a insane surplus of iron hide on the market. Iron hide was being sold at 0.01 gp, the lowest possible amount. Rawhide on the other hand, was were i made most of my money in game. As a level 56, i was in a lvl 20 area spamming mobs and skinning, getting 4-5k rawhide per hour, taking them to end game zones and selling them for 1.5gp EACH. And they sold in minutes every time. And it was crazy. A lvl 1 resource was 150 time more valuable that a lvl 60 resource (!!!!).

Drop rates need a lot, and i mean A LOT, of attention and tuning. If that is done proper, there is no need to worry about the market, as it will regulate itself and stabilize. Sure, the start will be crazy, no one will know the price of anything, so people will just throw items up with random prices, see what sells. But 1-2 weeks into the game, its gonna stabilize

Schmuky

And a last, small example, take a look at real diamond industry. The prices of diamonds have stayed the same, or even gone up, even considering we are mining them more and more. The reason is that a lot of diamonds are kept away from the market to not crash its price (real story btw).

Or the fact that there is an asteroid orbiting Mars i think that is worth 700 quintillion dollars, made from gold and platinum. But if that asteroid were mined, do you think the world would be 700 quintillion richer? Nope, it would crash the gold and platinum economy instantly, making any gold ring worth less than a banana. When you have a massive supply of something, the value goes down. The bigger the supply, the bigger the drop.

Same works in game. You can try to cheat other by reselling the items at a higher price, but if 1 person that farmed that specific decides to undercut you by 50%, thats the new price. They control the supply and set the price.

Child Item