Hot Take: Why waste time on races no one is going to care about?

Talking mostly about Niküa here. We know they are never going it see their architecture in a major node. I have already seen people complain about it and propose wacky systems to make the node architecture more balanced. Tulnar and Empyrean will dominate, and we will see a good amount of humans. Only Dünir if they fix them.

It's like, why not just scrap Niküa? Less than 5% of the player base is going to pick them... The orcs and wood elves are going to be less than 10% for sure(better but not great). They could hold off on these races for now.

Instead of having things come in pairs for no reason. Why not just scrap the races and put stuff in, people like actually later? Or not put them in at launch all together to save budget and development time?

We all know in our heart of hearts that some of these races are a just not going to see much play, and better races could be put in their place after launch.

I would rather see more exciting races down the line in an expansion personally. They could do polls to see what races to add or remove from the game. We don't need nine whole ass races at launch, when realistically only five are going to be hype.

Feel free to tell me how crazy and wrong I am.

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Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I am not saying they wont make use of things like this if they are there, I am saying they wont ever sacrifice effectiveness for aesthetics. Most won't even spend time looking for anything aesthetic, and will only use that which they happen to come across.

That is why I am saying, take the choice of effectiveness versus aesthetics out of the game. It benefits no one and just creates a bunch of problems that everyone has to deal with.

When given the choice, people will do what they think is cool and say fuck the lore. This includes Intrepid.

As I said, Intrepid have basically done this with races.

You pick a race for the stats. You buy a racial skin for aesthetics.

You are saying to not have aesthetics and effects be the same choice. I am agreeing. All I am then saying is that the racial choice you make at character creation is about effectiveness, not aesthetics.

No matter how you look at it, if racial skins exist in Ashes, the choice of race at character creation is not going to ever be an aesthetic choice.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

All I am then saying is that the racial choice you make at character creation is about effectiveness, not aesthetics.

And yet that choice still restricts aesthetics...

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

All I am then saying is that the racial choice you make at character creation is about effectiveness, not aesthetics.

And yet that choice still restricts aesthetics...

Barely.

I'm going to assume you are not talking about node architecture here, because that is a stupid thing to make a decision about race on.

So, you are talking about your character.

The problem with this argument is that it completely falls to literally nothing at all the second Intrepid introduce racial skins for the base races - which we both know they will do.

As an "issue", it really isn't worth any thought. Your character is going to be able to look basically how you want it to look, so why get upset over this?

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

All I am then saying is that the racial choice you make at character creation is about effectiveness, not aesthetics.

And yet that choice still restricts aesthetics...

Barely.

I'm going to assume you are not talking about node architecture here, because that is a stupid thing to make a decision about race on.

So, you are talking about your character.

The problem with this argument is that it completely falls to literally nothing at all the second Intrepid introduce racial skins for the base races - which we both know they will do.

As an "issue", it really isn't worth any thought. Your character is going to be able to look basically how you want it to look, so why get upset over this?

I am not talking about node architecture at all. I have heard some talk about it, but I think the styles I like are popular enough that I don't have to worry they will never be big.

I am very skeptical they will introduce racial skins for base races. I mean, if they do, that is a hard line stance that they would rather sale quality of life features than give them for free. Of course, I would take this over nothing.

I don't know that my character is basically going to be able to look the way I want. That is the problem. If we are talking about FFXIV where race stats are barely in the game, then sure, no worries. If we are talking about WOW where some choices are so good it ruined the faction balance of the game... then I am upset.

We don't know that it's going to be an issue, but the way the game is planned now, it is an issue that is very easy to forecast. I am not yet "Upset" over this issue, but I am concerned enough to give the problem a voice on the forums.

Dolyem

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@Dolyem

No worries, it came off coherent enough. It sounds like you are putting a lot of trust into Intrepid to do the one thing that has never been done extremely well. Have a lot of interesting choices and good balance.

I am optimistic about many things with Ashes. I just have never seen a game with a large amount of player choices and good balance. I have seen no choices and good balance. I have seen a few choices and decent balance. Never, a lot of choices and good balance.

The only reason I am honestly putting my trust into them is because this is the last MMO for me. If its great, I will be pleasantly surprised. If its broken, then the MMO genre is being laid to rest for me. Either Middle Earth is being saved for me, or I am taking the last ship into the west with a wound that will never fully heal. Theatrics aside, Intrepid has at least shown us some promise, but I admit they have much to prove.

Vhaeyne

Dolyem wrote: »

The only reason I am honestly putting my trust into them is because this is the last MMO for me. If its great, I will be pleasantly surprised. If its broken, then the MMO genre is being laid to rest for me. Either Middle Earth is being saved for me, or I am taking the last ship into the west with a wound that will never fully heal. Theatrics aside, Intrepid has at least shown us some promise, but I admit they have much to prove.

The stakes are higher for you than me then. I have no plans to ever stop playing FFXIV. It's not perfect, but I like what it does enough to keep up with it.

There are other games I would at least try when they come out. I don't think I will ever be "Done" with the MMO genre. I think I am "Done" with WOW though. A lot would have to change to get me back into that dump of a game.

Tragnar

Less than 1% of mmo players are done for good, because if incredibly good mmo comes out, they might not be there for launch, but once good reviews kick in then they will come for sure.

At least imho new world was put together by people without good mmo dev experience - so that is why it is still a mess, thing is if they are willing to listen to players

There is nothing worse than a company that puts their own philosophy for game rules above the player.

After all the experience that players have is the only truly important thing

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I am very skeptical they will introduce racial skins for base races. I mean, if they do, that is a hard line stance that they would rather sale quality of life features than give them for free. Of course, I would take this over nothing.

My prediction is that one of each race will be bought, the other will be in game.

Tulnar, of course, will be given away for free.

They have no reason at all to not do this, and would make money off of it.

Even if they didn't add base races in as racial skins, the very fact that racial skins exist means that at best racial choice is only partially about aesthetics, and you can alter the aesthetics at any time - as opposed to the function of the race, which you can not change.

As such, race in Ashes is at least primarily about the function.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

My prediction is that one of each race will be bought, the other will be in game.

Tulnar, of course, will be given away for free.

They have no reason at all to not do this, and would make money off of it.

Even if they didn't add base races in as racial skins, the very fact that racial skins exist means that at best racial choice is only partially about aesthetics, and you can alter the aesthetics at any time - as opposed to the function of the race, which you can not change.

As such, race in Ashes is at least primarily about the function.

So you went from accurate visual representation is important to it doesn't matter because Intrepid is just going to sale us the customization back anyway.

I guess the good news for me would be that your prediction is an acceptable outcome for me. Maybe Nikua would be used for its racial, if you can just skin something that looks good over it. Still, I think putting these ability packages under "background" or "zodiac" is a more elegant and pro player agency design choice.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

So you went from accurate visual representation is important to it doesn't matter because Intrepid is just going to sale us the customization back anyway.

Yes, but at the same time I also went from what I would like to see (accurate visual representation) to what Ashes will have (not accurate visual representation).

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I guess the good news for me would be that your prediction is an acceptable outcome for me. Maybe Nikua would be used for its racial, if you can just skin something that looks good over it. Still, I think putting these ability packages under "background" or "zodiac" is a more elegant and pro player agency design choice.

The downside to this is that we have already been told you can't alter your race. If race is purely just a visual thing, having a way to change those visual would be the same as changing your race.

It may just be a technicality, but we should expect better from Intrepid than to operate on technicalities.

On the other hand, if race is primarily a stat pack, you can change your skin at will without it being a change to your race.

Vhaeyne

I thought the whole reason for no race change and no name change was so that players can have a server identity. When you can just change your name and race, you effectively become a new person. A shitty reputation can be removed with a new name and appearance.

Which is why the racial skins have always confused me. Like I was saying before, Intrepid is half assing this philosophy. The racial skins is essentially a limited race change. It would be more constant with their own design goals to just not do racials, and not sale any more racial cosmetics.

Keep the choice of race something that is only done once at character creation, but not have any stats or abilities that can affect the meta. This way everyone still gets to make the hard choice once. The handful of angels, demons and what not out there will still exist, but since everyone can still choose from a pool of looks without having to worry about what race makes the best "X" class. Everyone wins.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I thought the whole reason for no race change and no name change was so that players can have a server identity.

Nah, no race change is a mechanics thing.

If they are going to add race specific quests, things either get messy or get hampered if you allow race changes.

No name change was an identity thing.

I can't see how a person would ever tie a person's in game look to their identity. I know I never have - its too easy to change how characters look to do that.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

I can't see how a person would ever tie a person's in game look to their identity. I know I never have - its too easy to change how characters look to do that.

I notice these things. Even in FFXIV where some people change their race/class all the time, I notice when someone is a different race/class than the last time I have seen them. Even people I don't even know, if the name is something that catches my eye then I bet I know what race/class that player was the last time I seen them.

Atama

I don’t like the idea of being able to change to another player race. Changing into an ice elemental or angel or something is one thing, because we know that you can’t actually make a character of that race. But I’m not comfortable with an orc turning into an elf, for example.

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Screen_Shot_2017_07_13_at_1.09.20_PM.0.png

Though there is precedent. I remember as far back as EQ, the Enchanter class could change their race. And that was a game where certain races were murdered by NPC guards when they went to the wrong city. But that was a temporary thing from a spell and it had limits.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

I don’t like the idea of being able to change to another player race. Changing into an ice elemental or angel or something is one thing, because we know that you can’t actually make a character of that race. But I’m not comfortable with an orc turning into an elf, for example.

I don't like it either.

But then, I also don't like the idea of someone in a full suit of plate armor, holding a sword and shield standing off in the distance casting fireballs at me.

Or even better, someone in that same full suit of armor, holding that same sword and shield, somehow being able to go stealth and be undetected as they walk up right behind me and backstab me.

RazThemun

Think it will largely depend on what they plan lore wise. It also gives that option of playing a race with different ideologies. If there was only 1 elf option or 1 dwarf option...players would complain they only have one option for that race. It is a lose lose situation really, give a player no choice they complain, give them a choice and they then don't like the choices offered or that they can't do both. Just pick a race you like to play and focus on that. Stop worrying about if another group only has maybe 1000 players interested in that option.

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