Make Achievements great again

So in most games achievements are kind of there just for the sake of doing them. I say make achievements worth of the time a player puts into them with rewards! This could be in the form of total achievement point where you can turn them in for rewards of horizontal or vertical progression. Another idea is particular themed chains of achievements with relative rewards for your efforts. For example if you complete a chain of cleric/healing related achievements then you get a particular cleric related augment or an increase in a cleric stat such as +1 mentality. If you complete some kind of tank chain of achievements you could gain HP or get a tank related augment. Getting something from achievements that isn't just cosmetic I would love. It also keep the hardcore player interested as they get something to grind that actually gives them some sort of character progression. It's a way of getting those last few extra stats/perks for your character which is a big time dump as compared to the normal progression path. But these progressions should be small addons to your character as to not imbalance the essence of the game. For example an ideal achievement chain for me would be I complete 30 jumping puzzles over an achievement quest chain and I get a reward of +3% movement speed as the reward, it thematically matches the achievement of exploration or an augment which makes a skill movement faster.

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SeasonShepherd

I think The achievement's system in GW was good, definitely should be a most in the game

Boanergese

World of Warcraft had that in Vanilla WOW. The warlock and the paladin used to have to do a series of quests to unlock their unique class mount. The priest was able to get the staff "Benediction" which looked cool and at the time people knew you worked you ass off to get the item. In modern World of Warcraft cutting edge still takes a certain amount of skill. Only 1% of the population earn it. The same with the gladiator title for PVP. I agree with the others that you shouldn't get a stat bonus for an achievement because that could unbalance things. Star Wars: The Old Republic had some puzzle thing in it where you could find these hidden datacrons and you could receive a small bonus to stats, but I am not sure if Intrepid would want to do that in this game.

http://www.swtor-spy.com/datacrons/

Kai37

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

Also, I have given a lot of sound reasons for why I believe that handling these two very different pieces of content should be handled separately and am yet to hear why you are so fervent in your belief that combining them would be more ideal. Can you tell me why you would prefer that they are merged?

I literally gave you a reason in the post above this. Do you need bright flashing lights to guide you?

Consider this a bright flashing light.

The reason I asked this is because the page hadn't loaded your second post yet and I had already written the above. Also, I wasn't convinced there is a solid reason for your protests but after reading what you had said I understand the rift between us.

Either way, let's not fall prey to idle repartee that's unhelpful. Happy to argue the points, not going to say anything about you or attack your ability to understand my points of view.

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

Where this all started was with achievements and quests needing to be managed differently ie. quests coming from NPC's, having dialogue, story and rewards that increased you characters power directly, whereas achievements can just preexist in a logbook waiting for you to get around to if if you feel like it and typically don't reward in the same manner as quests. This has been my singular point the whole time, with little to no focus on the interface aspect.

The problem with this is that it is limiting.

There is literally no reason at all that quests need to have story or dialogue. These things are preferable, but not strictly necessary. There are reasons why you may want quests with no story or dialogue, and almost all games have such quests.

Basically, what your argument is doing is boxing off quests and saying "this is all they can be", and boxing off achievements and saying "this is all they can be". The big issue here is that your boxes are missing a whole lot of potential content, and so simply should not exist.

This right here is why we will likely never agree. Quests that have no story or dialogue are, in my opinion, a wasted opportunity that just fills space with something bland and borderline pointless, may as well forget about it and just up exp on mob kills. Not very reflective of the RPG part of an MMORPG.
If you are ok with this kind of content then I understand perfectly what you are suggesting, it's just not for me. If they did this i think it would feel like a cheap MMO, and would be vastly disappointing, especially considering the time spent on it.

Intrepid have been clear about the deep lore attributed to this game, so I think it's likely that they will avoid going down the path of throw away XP quests and will likely work towards having quests that make sense from a lore and story perspective.

Noaani

Kai37 wrote: »

This right here is why we will likely never agree. Quests that have no story or dialogue are, in my opinion, a wasted opportunity that just fills space with something bland and borderline pointless, may as well forget about it and just up exp on mob kills. Not very reflective of the RPG part of an MMORPG.
If you are ok with this kind of content then I understand perfectly what you are suggesting, it's just not for me.

I don't think you have read much of what I have.poatsd in this thread.

If you had, you would have seen that a key aspect of the suggestion was to split the journal in to four sections. Achievements, tasks, errands and quests.

Doing this would put quests and achievements front and center for this that prefer then. It would mean you can set tasks (kill 10 rat type quests that lead nowhere), and errands (take this thing to the NPC in the town on the other side of the world) and only look at what you want.

If all you are interested in is quests with story behind them, you'll find them in the quest section.

However, since such quests take far too long to develop, tasks and errands like the above are a necessary part of MMO development. This is an unavoidable fact.

Since they are necessary, having the option to only look at the things you want to do should be tracking well with what you want.

So yeah, don't think you have read much of what I have said.

Kai37

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

This right here is why we will likely never agree. Quests that have no story or dialogue are, in my opinion, a wasted opportunity that just fills space with something bland and borderline pointless, may as well forget about it and just up exp on mob kills. Not very reflective of the RPG part of an MMORPG.
If you are ok with this kind of content then I understand perfectly what you are suggesting, it's just not for me.

I don't think you have read much of what I have.poatsd in this thread.

If you had, you would have seen that a key aspect of the suggestion was to split the journal in to four sections. Achievements, tasks, errands and quests.

Doing this would put quests and achievements front and center for this that prefer then. It would mean you can set tasks (kill 10 rat type quests that lead nowhere), and errands (take this thing to the NPC in the town on the other side of the world) and only look at what you want.

If all you are interested in is quests with story behind them, you'll find them in the quest section.

However, since such quests take far too long to develop, tasks and errands like the above are a necessary part of MMO development. This is an unavoidable fact.

Since they are necessary, having the option to only look at the things you want to do should be tracking well with what you want.

So yeah, don't think you have read much of what I have said.

I definitely have read and I believe understood everything you have written. The issue is that either consciously or unconsciously you have altered what you have said or what you have been arguing against. My initial interjection was that we needed two systems to manage these two very different activities. Not once did I comment on the interface as that's a secondary matter thing at this stage. It makes little sense to me why you even started arguing with me when it seems that now your focus is on interface and I have been solely talking about systems and backends. Don't conflate my two systems comments with an interface issue.... which no one ever even mentioned or argued with you about in this thread.

To be clear, my original comment was that quests and achievements should not be treated the same, as was your original point. I wont labour all the reasons in detail again but simply put, achievements are a list of doable tasks that can sit there waiting to be done, no collection required, no story, no NPC interaction. Quests are how the game tells a story and would be treated as such, with the obvious rewards like currency, exp, weapons, armor etc... This is my only point. Having these very separate tasks managed by one interface panel that has seperate headings.... fine with me.

Furthermore, I even agreed that from an interface perspective what you said makes sense.... so please don't tell me what I have and haven't read. See below.

Kai37 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

Have a journal that breaks down in to Quests, Tasks, Errands and Achievements.

Allow it to be sorted by region (or node, perhaps) for both where the entry originated from, and where the next update is (having an "unknown" section for any entries where you are unsure of where the next update is).

This way, if you are in an area, you can very easily see all the things you have to do in that location, but can very easily distinguish between not just quests and achievements, but also tasks (kill x of y) and errands (take item to z). These last two are as different from quests as achievements are, and so should have their own category here.

if you're suggesting that there is a primary "to-do list" window and Quests are one heading while achievements are another then I honestly I'm all for it and I don't think anyone would disagree, in fact I agree wholeheartedly about your point on zone relevant content but that hardly is what has been argued earlier.

Noaani

Kai37 wrote: »

My initial interjection was that we needed two systems to manage these two very different activities.

They are not very different activities, and even if they were, that does not mean they need different systems.

While not a player facing system, an example of this is a games base RNG system. As a system, this is used in almost literally every aspect of the game. If you are killing quest mobs, you are likely using the RNG system a few times a second, from determining if a hit is actually going to land, how much damage it deals if it lands, and then if you get a quest update (in some cases) when the mob is killed. There are - obviously - many more situations just in killing quest mobs where the games RNG system is used.

if your argument is that you think quests and achievements are different, therefore they need a different back end system, then surely you would expect a different RNG system for every different activity that uses RNG in a game.

Very clearly, this is stupid. If a game can reuse a system - especially a back end system - there is literally no need to implement that same system twice.

I am going to just assume you don't disagree with any of the above.

Quests and achievements are effectively the same thing. The game checks to see if you complete a task, and then updates a list of tasks when you do. That back end system is literally the exact same thing, which has been my argument from the start. There is literally no point in making that system twice - just as there i literally no point in making the RNG system twice.

We covered all of this pages ago.

I reiterated my point on splitting the journal up because you bought up your preference for quests with story and such. While this is a perfectly fine thing to prefer, you simply can't expect an MMO to not have more basic quests that would fit in to the categories of tasks and errands.

You don't get to complain about me addressing a point you bought up. Even less do you get to claim that me addressing that point in any way means I have altered what I have been saying.

Fact, quests and achievements are both lists of tasks that players can complete. Argue that point, by all means - it is the only point that you have to try and argue against.

If you can not argue that point, then you either need to agree that your argument is based on emotion as opposed to logic, or you need to agree that there is literally no point in creating different systems to perform that same function.

Boanergese

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

Quests require story, character, world continuity as well as background development for them to fit within the world.

If this were true, it would be a valid point.

I can't count how many games I have played that have had at least a number of quests that involve simply clicking an item, killing an amount of a specific type of mob, and then the quest auto-completes. No story, no characters (other than the targets), no world building or continuity at all.

In fact, I can't think of an MMO that DOESN'T have at least some quests like this.

Then there are quests that are automatically given to you when you enter an area, or when you kill a boss, or when you complete a different quest.

Quests are sometimes used as a tool for world building, story telling and character development. However, quests do not require these things to be present. Your definition of an achievement here is basically just a quest where these things are not present - which is precisely my point.

The reward point you bring up is not really much of a thing. Quests can result in cosmetic gear, and many games have quests where this is the case. Achievements can result in useful items, and many games have achievements where this is the case. As such, the rewards here are already blurred based on your suggestion of cosmetic rewards for achievements and useful rewards for quests.

Basically, your post here seems to come down to "my opinion is that quests do this these things, and achievements do these other things, but please ignore the quests and achievements behind that curtain over there that do the things they are not supposed to do".

You are talking about things as you would prefer, rather than how they could be. There is no reason a quest journal can't have a section for achievements along with sections for quests by type or zone - none of your points here prevent anything like that at all.

I think what @Kai37 is arguing that he or she would rather more of the quests help with the story telling like what Final Fantasy 14 does with its main story quest line. @Noaani is also correct that you don't need two systems from the back end because the system will just look at a list to see if all the parameters have been met.

The question is how are you defining the word achievement? Generally, everyone will be able to complete a main story quest because the developers want the story to move on, but not everyone will necessarily be able to achieve every achievement. There was an achievement in World of Warcraft years ago where you had to clear the entire raid of Naxrramus with 25 people, on the hardest difficulty, killing all the bosses, without anyone dying, in one raid lockout. It was one of the rarest achievements. The title went away when the next expansion came out. I get @George_Black point, if I have an achievement that someone else doesn't have and then bragging about it could cause toxicity in an MMO.

Noaani

Boanergese wrote: »

I think what Kai37 is arguing that he or she would rather more of the quests help with the story telling like what Final Fantasy 14 does with its main story quest line. Noaani is also correct that you don't need two systems from the back end because the system will just look at a list to see if all the parameters have been met.

I have no doubt that is what they want, and that is fine.

That has no real bearing on the discussion of achievements not needing their own back end system though, which is what I have been trying to get across to them for a page or two.

Kai37

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

My initial interjection was that we needed two systems to manage these two very different activities.

They are not very different activities, and even if they were, that does not mean they need different systems.

While not a player facing system, an example of this is a games base RNG system. As a system, this is used in almost literally every aspect of the game. If you are killing quest mobs, you are likely using the RNG system a few times a second, from determining if a hit is actually going to land, how much damage it deals if it lands, and then if you get a quest update (in some cases) when the mob is killed. There are - obviously - many more situations just in killing quest mobs where the games RNG system is used.

if your argument is that you think quests and achievements are different, therefore they need a different back end system, then surely you would expect a different RNG system for every different activity that uses RNG in a game.

Very clearly, this is stupid. If a game can reuse a system - especially a back end system - there is literally no need to implement that same system twice.

Of course this is stupid... not even remotely what I'm suggesting either. I have been pretty deliberate with defining what I mean when I say system and I certainly haven't been talking about the 1's and 0's of how the game engine recognises when something is complete.

This whole thread is based on how to tackle making achievements great again, my concern is not for things such the backend checking systems that few players would recognise or notice but for the backend/system of how these different activities are created and implemented. It's not worth talking to me about anything else other than this because as I see it, this is what the players will feel the most when they play the game and therefore is the most relevant.

This debate is getting very tired and unfortunately is seems @Noaani that you have missed my point and intent in wanting achievements and quests to be treated differently so I'll finish with this.
1. I don't care if the interface or checking systems are shared, this doesn't hurt gameplay so why would I.
2. I do care if quests are watered down to superfluous kill X, Y times quests instead of being used as the foundations for the games story.
3. When I say system and backend I clarified to specify how quests and achievements are made and delivered to players, the incentives behind them as well as their purpose. quests requiring a lot more backend work due to story, npcs dialogue, tangible rewards, exp etc...

You created your own argument for me and then proceeded to argue against it when I really had no stake in what you were talking about and yes, you definitely did change your point as we progressed, you are an advocate for amalgamating quests and achievements... hardly a backend system argument which is what you are saying now...

Noaani wrote: »

BaSkA13 wrote: »

I enjoy Achievements because they add content to a game to people that are completionists.

This can be achieved by using quests in place of achievements.

Noaani

Kai37 wrote: »

This debate is getting very tired and unfortunately is seems @Noaani that you have missed my point and intent in wanting achievements and quests to be treated differently so I'll finish with this.
1. I don't care if the interface or checking systems are shared, this doesn't hurt gameplay so why would I.
2. I do care if quests are watered down to superfluous kill X, Y times quests instead of being used as the foundations for the games story.
3. When I say system and backend I clarified to specify how quests and achievements are made and delivered to players, the incentives behind them as well as their purpose. quests requiring a lot more backend work due to story, npcs dialogue, tangible rewards, exp etc...

Here's why your stance makes no sense.

You don't want quests to be watered down. Cool. We all want good quests that are long, enjoyable, challenging and not just laid out for players.

This isn't a debate in this thread. We all want that.

You also want achievements in the game, it would seem. You seem perfectly fine with an achievement for killing 10k of some specific mob.

You don't want kill * mobs quests, just achievements.

You seem to understand that these are both just tasks the game gives players.

Yet, inexplicably, you claim to not care about interface - when interface is the only difference between the two.

When taken as a whole, this makes no sense from a logical perspective.

Kai37

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

This debate is getting very tired and unfortunately is seems @Noaani that you have missed my point and intent in wanting achievements and quests to be treated differently so I'll finish with this.
1. I don't care if the interface or checking systems are shared, this doesn't hurt gameplay so why would I.
2. I do care if quests are watered down to superfluous kill X, Y times quests instead of being used as the foundations for the games story.
3. When I say system and backend I clarified to specify how quests and achievements are made and delivered to players, the incentives behind them as well as their purpose. quests requiring a lot more backend work due to story, npcs dialogue, tangible rewards, exp etc...

Here's why your stance makes no sense.

You don't want quests to be watered down. Cool. We all want good quests that are long, enjoyable, challenging and not just laid out for players.

This isn't a debate in this thread. We all want that.

You also want achievements in the game, it would seem. You seem perfectly fine with an achievement for killing 10k of some specific mob.

You don't want kill * mobs quests, just achievements.

You seem to understand that these are both just tasks the game gives players.

Yet, inexplicably, you claim to not care about interface - when interface is the only difference between the two.

When taken as a whole, this makes no sense from a logical perspective.

Literally read dot point 3 in my last post.... It has nothing to do with interface and everything to do with how quests and achievements are made, and implemented.... If you aren't going to read the stuff I write then me responding to what you have written becomes redundant. If you think that interface is all that could separate the two activities then you haven't understood me at all.

I think this might be my last response as having someone seemingly not even read what I am writing is wearing thin.

Noaani

Kai37 wrote: »

Literally read dot point 3 in my last post.... It has nothing to do with interface and everything to do with how quests and achievements are made, and implemented.... If you aren't going to read the stuff I write then me responding to what you have written becomes redundant. If you think that interface is all that could separate the two activities then you haven't understood me at all.

I think this might be my last response as having someone seemingly not even read what I am writing is wearing thin.

So, how are quests made?

How does this differ from how achievements are made?

The reason I didn't address this point is because I assumed it was a mistake that you even made it. If it was a point you wanted to further, you would have elaborated on it by now. Now you have the opportunity to elaborate, go for it.

Kai37

Noaani wrote: »

Kai37 wrote: »

Literally read dot point 3 in my last post.... It has nothing to do with interface and everything to do with how quests and achievements are made, and implemented.... If you aren't going to read the stuff I write then me responding to what you have written becomes redundant. If you think that interface is all that could separate the two activities then you haven't understood me at all.

I think this might be my last response as having someone seemingly not even read what I am writing is wearing thin.

So, how are quests made?

How does this differ from how achievements are made?

The reason I didn't address this point is because I assumed it was a mistake that you even made it. If it was a point you wanted to further, you would have elaborated on it by now. Now you have the opportunity to elaborate, go for it.

I've explained all this already man, I've been through it... My interjection started when I said that quests and achievements are different types of content and they shouldn't be amalgamated in how they are presented or implemented in the game (not a comment on interface), specifically, quests should not have achievement style objectives and naturally achievements should not have quest like pickups. I have explained in detail the why, the how and the what in previous posts. Pretty simple stuff in my mind. Feel free to peruse previous posts.

Noaani

Kai37 wrote: »

My interjection started when I said that quests and achievements are different types of content and they shouldn't be amalgamated in how they are presented or implemented in the game (not a comment on interface)

But... how quests and achievements are implemented absolutely IS interface based.

I'd be really interested to hear how you want to discuss how achievements are presented to players without talking about the interface for achievements.

If you want to ignore this as simply "your bad", that's fine.

As to the rest, you don't want to see quests use achievement style objectives. Who said they would? You don't want achievements to have quest style accepting? again, no one said they would.

Create a system where developers can assign "widgets". These "widgets" can be given to players in a number of ways, ass the developer sees fit. They can be just automatically given to players, they can be given when players arrive in a specific area, pick up a specific item, reach a specific point in dialogue with an NPC, or any other number of things.

Then, developers can assign "updates" to these "widgets". As many updates as they wish, from none, all the way up to too many. This could be anything from talking to an NPC, to killing any number of mobs, specific types, general types, what ever. It could be picking up an item, picking up a specific number of items, interacting with a world object, crafting an item, what ever. Then allow developers to assign a reward to these "widgets" when they are completed. This could be a title, coin, an item, a recipe, experience, what ever.

Now allow developers to chose to allow direction assistance (if the game has it), for these widgets, and then also allow them to assign tags to them to denote whether they are quests, achievements, tasks or errands, and place them in players journals appropriately.

This system allows developers to build the quests you want, the quests you don't want, the achievements you want and the achievements you don't want.

This is what I am saying should be done, and you are saying should not be done.

Explain yourself.

Boanergese

JustVine

Boanergese wrote: »

Are you and Dolyem brothers? Your memefu is strong.

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