Weapon types that feel misplaced. Wands and Potion Launchers.

TLDR: Wands seem misplaced in the world of Ashes of Creation because there are no links between Tolkien-Like fantasy and "Harry Potter Style" wands. Please read the whole post for a more sound argument and let me know how you feel about wands in Ashes.

I was watching the Unreal Engine 5 reveal which looked really promising overall. I'm very happy with the new lighting systems and how many potential textures have. I also appreciated the locomotion improvements which made the game feel more immersive, even if I was just watching.

I also noticed Steven's wand. I know that there are a lot of weapon types coming up in Ashes of Creation, which I think overall is great. However, the wand seemed misplaced with the rest of the gorgeous snowy biome. So I took a look at all of the potential weapon types that Ashes of Creation will have.

Maybe it's just my point of view, but hear me out. Ashes seem to follow a classic, Tolkien-Like, fantasy world. Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Orcs. Obviously, things aren't one for one because this isn't a LOTR IP, but from the weapon list here, potion launchers and wands feel misplaced. Now I can't make a REALLY make a good argument on why wands feel wrong, it's more of a feeling, but I will try my best.

I won't focus on the potion launcher very much because the Intrepid Team is tentative about putting it into the game, and rightfully so.

Wands, on the other hand, we have all seen in Alpha 1 and of course in the Unreal Engine 5 migration reveal.
In fantasy, wands appear very rarely. Most famously there is of course the Harry Potter series which is completely separate from standard high fantasy. Historically, a quick search says that the first mention of wands was in Homer's Odyssey and Illiad. Some gods used them as well as a witch named Cerce who turned Odysseus's men into pigs. There was also some writing of wand usage in old grimoires like The Oathbound Book of Honorius and The Key of Solomon.

In more modern and pop culture we see several stories with wands in them:
C.S Lewis' The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe
MGM's - The Wizard of Oz
Disney's - Pinnochio
Disney's - Cinderella
Disney's - Sleeping Beauty
Blizzard's - World of Warcraft, (Magic Casters, Autofire Weapon)

Now I know, if World of Warcraft did it, why shouldn't Ashes of Creation. I think the reason the wand seems so much more immersion breaking in Ashes is that it is used as an active weapon unlike World of Warcraft where it's just ur right-click, ranged attack. Usually, you would see, Mages, Warlocks, and Priests stand around with their staffs, swords, daggers, books, and orbs and look very very cool. So when Steven is swinging his wand around shooting spells at the flower monsters, it looks a lot more like a Harry Potter game than fantasy or high fantasy.

There just isn't a lot of references in movies, art, and books that link Tolkien-Like fantasy worlds with wands. Maybe if Gandalf had a wand instead of a staff I wouldn't want to write this post, but let me know what you guys think. Am I the only one who thinks that the wands seem like they fit with the other weapons or is it just me? Let me know!

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Comments

Voidwalkers

I've always had the impression that a staff is just a 2-handed superwand that can double as a melee weapon.

Wand - you point it at things, shoot things, things die.
Staff - you raise it, chant some spells, point it at things, shoot things, things die.
Also staff - you are Gandalf the Grey wizard, you are facing a balrog. Somehow you believe meleeing it with your staff is the best idea. You both fall.

Jokes aside, in general in most fantasies wands & staves are treated as a tool to focus a mage's power, and the general impression seems to be wands are often used to cast small but quick spells, while staves are often seen when a mage's casting some high-power aoe epic spells.

So if I'm implementing the staves & wands in a game, my take would be either have them come with different sets of weapon-skills (like GW2), or have them act as amplifiers for different spells - wands amplify the shorter-cast, lower power spells, while staves would amplify the longer-cast, high power or aoe spells. Or may be just have wands focus on reducing cast time of all spells, while staves focus on increasing raw damage.

Not sure how Intrepid's gonna implement them in Ashes, but at least please make wands & staves play differently.
The last thing I'd like to see are stat-sticks like the staves/wands in wow.

daveywavey

I used a Wand in Guild Wars, and it never felt out of place. I don't see the problem.

Orym

Yeah wands are pathetic looking lol
Hopefully there will be some nice options for healers/casters or whichever class would use it.

Atama

Orym wrote: »

Yeah wands are pathetic looking lol
Hopefully there will be some nice options for healers/casters or whichever class would use it.

All classes use all weapons. Clerics and Mages can also use swords, or axes, or bows.

There are other ranged magical weapons. Books, orbs, and scepters. If you don't like the look of wands, use one of those.

I tried a book in Alpha 1 and it was extremely slow and awkward, so I went back to my wand as my preferred ranged weapon. The animations were a bit Harry Potter-ish, when animations are redone hopefully they'll improve on it.

I never got a chance to try an orb and I never even saw a scepter, so I don't know what they were like.

JustVine

Yeah I wish they gave the book a better casting speed in A-1. I really preffered it a lot more over the wand, but they didn't even give it better over all damage! It was just objectively worse. Book animation was great. It's one of the things I am looking forward to in A-2

Atama

JustVine wrote: »

Yeah I wish they gave the book a better casting speed in A-1. I really preffered it a lot more over the wand, but they didn't even give it better over all damage! It was just objectively worse. Book animation was great. It's one of the things I am looking forward to in A-2

Yeah it looked good. I really liked the page movement. But it was a garbage weapon.

maouw

JustVine wrote: »

Kinda surprised Harry Potter didn't get brought up as an example of wands in pop culture. It's also where we have a good example of light, medium and heavy wand attacks in cinematography. You can make wands a little more technical than what we saw in Alpha 1.

I was debating whether I should make a thread specifically addressing the wand's rigging.
It's being wielded like a tennis racket.
It needs to be wielded like a badminton racket. (it's all in the wrist)

The Harry Potter movies put a lot of thought and talent into how wand combat should look and it paid off.
I think it's at least good source material.

JustVine

I'm kinda surprised it wasn't their immediate instinct to go to that material given how much more realistic wand duels feel in those movies. Especially when they are going for a proc combo style of weapon combat.

Boanergese

maouw wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Kinda surprised Harry Potter didn't get brought up as an example of wands in pop culture. It's also where we have a good example of light, medium and heavy wand attacks in cinematography. You can make wands a little more technical than what we saw in Alpha 1.

I was debating whether I should make a thread specifically addressing the wand's rigging.
It's being wielded like a tennis racket.
It needs to be wielded like a badminton racket. (it's all in the wrist)

The Harry Potter movies put a lot of thought and talent into how wand combat should look and it paid off.
I think it's at least good source material.

Yes, but you also had to clearly enunciate your words as you were casting the spell. It wasn't simply the flick and swoosh motion.

Elo

I remember in D&D and Pathfinder, because wands had charges, they were most often saved for those special occasions "when needed", rather than being a primary weapon.

overfitneuralnet

Someone got killed by a mage with just want auto attacks... That's how this sh*t sounds. Lore and what is and what isn't appropriate for the game, I think is up to what Steven and the designers want it to be.

They are not making a copy of someone else's mythos and lore, they are not making a game based on the lore of another preexisting franchise. It's what they make it out to be.

If throwing boiled potatoes is a weapon regularly employed by inhabitants of Verra, then it's their right to make it happen. And actually, that would be a funny weapon to use.

daveywavey

Atama

Boanergese wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Kinda surprised Harry Potter didn't get brought up as an example of wands in pop culture. It's also where we have a good example of light, medium and heavy wand attacks in cinematography. You can make wands a little more technical than what we saw in Alpha 1.

I was debating whether I should make a thread specifically addressing the wand's rigging.
It's being wielded like a tennis racket.
It needs to be wielded like a badminton racket. (it's all in the wrist)

The Harry Potter movies put a lot of thought and talent into how wand combat should look and it paid off.
I think it's at least good source material.

Yes, but you also had to clearly enunciate your words as you were casting the spell. It wasn't simply the flick and swoosh motion.

Levi-O-sa. Not Levio-SA.

caedwyn

Squeezy wrote: »

TLDR: Wands seem misplaced in the world of Ashes of Creation because there are no links between Tolkien-Like fantasy and "Harry Potter Style" wands. Please read the whole post for a more sound argument and let me know how you feel about wands in Ashes.

I was watching the Unreal Engine 5 reveal which looked really promising overall. I'm very happy with the new lighting systems and how many potential textures have. I also appreciated the locomotion improvements which made the game feel more immersive, even if I was just watching.

I also noticed Steven's wand. I know that there are a lot of weapon types coming up in Ashes of Creation, which I think overall is great. However, the wand seemed misplaced with the rest of the gorgeous snowy biome. So I took a look at all of the potential weapon types that Ashes of Creation will have.

Maybe it's just my point of view, but hear me out. Ashes seem to follow a classic, Tolkien-Like, fantasy world. Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Orcs. Obviously, things aren't one for one because this isn't a LOTR IP, but from the weapon list here, potion launchers and wands feel misplaced. Now I can't make a REALLY make a good argument on why wands feel wrong, it's more of a feeling, but I will try my best.

I won't focus on the potion launcher very much because the Intrepid Team is tentative about putting it into the game, and rightfully so.

Wands, on the other hand, we have all seen in Alpha 1 and of course in the Unreal Engine 5 migration reveal.
In fantasy, wands appear very rarely. Most famously there is of course the Harry Potter series which is completely separate from standard high fantasy. Historically, a quick search says that the first mention of wands was in Homer's Odyssey and Illiad. Some gods used them as well as a witch named Cerce who turned Odysseus's men into pigs. There was also some writing of wand usage in old grimoires like The Oathbound Book of Honorius and The Key of Solomon.

In more modern and pop culture we see several stories with wands in them:
C.S Lewis' The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe
MGM's - The Wizard of Oz
Disney's - Pinnochio
Disney's - Cinderella
Disney's - Sleeping Beauty
Blizzard's - World of Warcraft, (Magic Casters, Autofire Weapon)

Now I know, if World of Warcraft did it, why shouldn't Ashes of Creation. I think the reason the wand seems so much more immersion breaking in Ashes is that it is used as an active weapon unlike World of Warcraft where it's just ur right-click, ranged attack. Usually, you would see, Mages, Warlocks, and Priests stand around with their staffs, swords, daggers, books, and orbs and look very very cool. So when Steven is swinging his wand around shooting spells at the flower monsters, it looks a lot more like a Harry Potter game than fantasy or high fantasy.

There just isn't a lot of references in movies, art, and books that link Tolkien-Like fantasy worlds with wands. Maybe if Gandalf had a wand instead of a staff I wouldn't want to write this post, but let me know what you guys think. Am I the only one who thinks that the wands seem like they fit with the other weapons or is it just me? Let me know!

i fully agree with you.
after seeing the orcs in the past livestream you can see how they resemble trolls in wow + naavi people from avatar BUT i didnt dislike it because i dont care about orcs or any other race that is not elf

wands and potion launchers are INDEED weird !
they are like i said in another thread, unnecessary and unwanted in a world where you have magic at large.

who would want a musket when you can summon METEORITE ?
who wants a crossbow/potion launcher when you can enchant your arrows ?
i personally hate all steampunk/guns/mechanical engineering stuff that they add in high fantasy magical world.

Atama

Why have a sword when you can summon a meteor?

Because a sword can do things a spell can't. Just as a wand can. They are different tools for different purposes.

You might as well ask why anyone would be anything but a Mage. It's a bad argument.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

You might as well ask why anyone would be anything but a Mage. It's a bad argument.

I've been wondering this for years, honestly.

Atama

Noaani wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

You might as well ask why anyone would be anything but a Mage. It's a bad argument.

I've been wondering this for years, honestly.

Haha, touché.

Sevarielone

The only issue I see with Wands, WHERE IS THE BLUE? Please please please let us choose our favorite colors. I need blue to live, don’t force me to use red or gold all the time /beg.

Also, Wands exist in the modern real world as tools for focusing energy and intention, they’ve been around longer than Tolkien and Dungeons and Dragons…

A balanced potion launcher also sounds awesome if it is designed to be more steam punk than modern weapon design. Ashes strikes me as steampunk-fantasy. Where magic and science intersect with elves and dragons, it’s hard to say what is impossible. Just because it’s a fantasy based game doesn’t mean everyone still relies on candlelight and chamber pots. We have growing crystals and alchemical solutions..

Steampunk fits very well when they’re ready for it..

Atama

Sevariel wrote: »

The only issue I see with Wands, WHERE IS THE BLUE? Please please please let us choose our favorite colors. I need blue to live, don’t force me to use red or gold all the time /beg.

I assume there will be blue wands, but you do bring up a good point.

We have dyes in the game, but they only apply to armor (or costumes that cover up the armor). No dyes for weapons. I’m also not seeing where we can use cosmetics on weapons. And racial influence on gear appearance applies to armor, not weapons. So the whole idea of appearance customization seems to exclude weapons entirely.

I have the feeling that we’re going to have to get used to funky-looking weapons that clash with the rest of our appearance. Which is a shame, but if it’s something commonplace then I guess players will just tune it out.

On a positive note, wands are so small that in Alpha 1 I could barely see mine and ignored what it looked like.

Sevarielone

Atama wrote: »

Sevariel wrote: »

The only issue I see with Wands, WHERE IS THE BLUE? Please please please let us choose our favorite colors. I need blue to live, don’t force me to use red or gold all the time /beg.

I assume there will be blue wands, but you do bring up a good point.

On a positive note, wands are so small that in Alpha 1 I could barely see mine and ignored what it looked like.

YOU bring up some very good points, weapon customization is important.. but I should’ve been more clear. — I’m worried about the particle effects, the actual wand attacks have all been shown to be red energy blasts and I really hope that there are ways to be a blue-themed caster or rogue.

Blue spell effects / offensive animations will get me to roll a class, even if it’s not the archetype I hoped to play initially.

I’m prayin for the day an mmo grants spell customization (such as warlock fel-fire quest in WoW) or glyphs that alter the color of your abilities.

AoC clerics have some stunning animations in the works, like the light-lasso, but if they’re all gold al the time, I’m not interested. Blue light-lasso…? Down.

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