Interaction Between Players of Different Levels

Leveling is going to take quite awhile in AoC, roughly 45 days with 4-6 hours of play, or between 180 and 270 hours of play. As such, it would be reasonable to say that it will take many players months to reach max, perhaps even longer for those who can't play consistently.

So, my question is, how would players interact with each other with, say, a ten level difference to one another? Would you still want to bring the other player along to your activity for the extra pair of hands, or would you simply not bother the "dead weight" and stick to a smaller party? On the flipside, would you be able to meaningfully participate in a group if you're well under the average level of the group?

If you're being ganked by a higher level player should you reasonably be able to escape, or even win, with skillful play? Or would you simply have to hold the L?

Personally I feel that there should be meaningful interaction between players, even if their levels are considerably apart. I also think Intrepid is aware of this and is designing classes with this in mind. With classes like mage and cleric getting abilities such as black hole, raise, and damnation which are more "static" abilities compared to those that get continuously stronger as you level up, at least to my knowledge, within the first ten levels.. I also think that in larger events, such as castle sieges, individual levels won't matter as much due to the sheer scope of the battle.

But, what are your thoughts on the matter? Should level discrepancies be a common occurrence in a group, or should players "stick to their own lane"? If so, what range of levels do you deem acceptable? Let me know in the comments below.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Tenryuta

maybe theres mentoring(xp boost from a higher player past a certain threshold of level or zone rep), or downscaling to prevent burst xp carrying a low in a higher level area.

McShave

Wulfenthrad wrote: »

So, my question is, how would players interact with each other with, say, a ten level difference to one another? Would you still want to bring the other player along to your activity for the extra pair of hands, or would you simply not bother the "dead weight" and stick to a smaller party? On the flipside, would you be able to meaningfully participate in a group if you're well under the average level of the group?

We don't know exactly the power level difference you get when you level up. A 10 level difference does feel like a lot, but what if character power was not tied to character level? Because it takes a long time to level, I would like to see an alternative to higher level = more power, but I'm not sure what that would look like. Maybe it would be a system where, just like the artisan skills, the more you participate in combat, the better your character is at it. Since there are many different ways to play the game, why does character level have to mean combat power?

Wulfenthrad wrote: »

If you're being ganked by a higher level player should you reasonably be able to escape, or even win, with skillful play? Or would you simply have to hold the L?

If they're within like a 5 level range I would expect a fair fight. If they are more than 5 levels above, don't fight back and give them tons of corruption.

I don't think Intrepid will implement a system where a character that is much lower level will not gain any experience when participating in higher level content, but that does not mean that they will be effective. When it comes to group content, like higher level dungeons, we don't know how Intrepid plans to design the difficulty and the effectiveness a lower level character might have. Maybe bringing 1 lower level character might handicap the party only a little bit so that the party can clear the content, maybe the handicap will be too much that the party cannot clear the content without all party members of a decent level for the content.

When it comes to fighting a higher level combatant, I don't think the lower level player will be able to compete. Unless they build in a specific way (we know you will be able to build a character in many different ways), you will be best just to not fight back and give them corruption, or fight back just so you can keep more of the resources you have. Maybe you can build a character that has many escape abilities, but that will cut back on your combat efficiency when trying to kill mobs or players around your own level.

tautau

There will be mentoring systems in the game, they have said that.

George_Black

In L2, my friend, was playing a D. Elf tank, 67lv with 52lv gear.
In 1v1, he was beating all the D. Elf tanks in 1v1, from the strongest guilds, higher Lv and higher lv gear.

My was also being ganged by 4-5 enemies while he was grinding mobs solo. Sometimes he would killed them all, other times a few of them.
That SKILL factor matters only if you are great at playing your class.

George_Black

I would prefer if gear and Lv made a big difference. If you put the effort in the MMORPG you should have an advantage. Dont step into the fight club naked and low Lv and expect to dazzle us. This isn't Tekken or dota.

Personally, I dont shy away from open world PvP, even at lower lvs. And because I partake I improve my skill overtime.
By the time I get my good gear set I am rdy to beat everybody, even some with better fear than me or higher lv.
Sometimes you win sometimes you lose.

One day, a majority of people will reach endgame lvs and endgame gear. Then, the true skills will show. If people dont have the patience to prove themselves they should just go play fps or whatever.

It's an mmorpg. Everything builds up together.
What I dont like is RNG augmentations. Scenarios where two people have the same gear, same lv, same skill and one of them used 10000 runes and got an augment that gives you 250 HP and the other used 10 runes and got an active skill that fully restores HP/MP once every 5mins.

George_Black

Now for the PvE side...

I dont like it when mmos let newbies lv up together with higher lv group members, or when they scale the world to a players Lv, or a groups combined Lv power.

If the highest member of the group is 5 Lvs ahead of the lowest, the lowest member shouldnt receive XP.

Higher lv players and lower lv players can interract in other ways. Guidance and hand-downs.
Also sieges. The noobs can use the weapons and mechanics, or fck go and Lv up and join the next siege.

George_Black

Mmorpgs have many components. It's not a singleplayer game, there are other people, and since we are dealing with materials, crafting and economy, gear should matter.

Time investment should mattet, Lvs and power stats.
Experience should matter. If you play at all parts pf the game, PvP, PvE etc etc, for more time, you should be more experienced than a player that just logged on a week ago.

As I said, true skill is rare. And if mmorpgs give value to gear and Lvs again, only true skill will shine. And that would be very few. Not everybody here that thinks "gear and Lvs are lame. I am awesome and I pwnnn"

Borges80

I like when there is a power difference. It makes you fear others who are stronger, while getting an edge on those who are lower, and maybe more of them. It doesn't always have to be competitive before max level, just fun. Beating higher level people also feels good and adds to the fun. Getting ganked sucks, but that's the tradeoff, plus it doesn't suck as bad when you know you are lower level.

Maybe not as drastic as WOW classic where 3-4 level difference can roll you, but a 10 lvl difference should feel more powerful.

Jhoren

As a ballpark figure, I think players within 10 levels should be able to just group together without penalties. For bigger differences, perhaps that mentoring system they have mentioned should kick in.

mcstackerson

To me, with max level being 50, i think you should be able to participate in most content and compete against most players when you are in your 20s. By then, you should have most of your core skills and you should start to have access to mid tier gear.

Are people going to be jumping to take you on to their endgame raids or want you on there competitive pvp group, no but if an endgame event happens at your node or you get attacked by a max level player, you should be able to play the game at that level.

Dygz

Seems to be a focus on Adventurer level.
Keep in mind that people might be wanting to bring with them characters who are Max Crafter Level/Low Adventurer Level.

mcstackerson

Dygz wrote: »

Seems to be a focus on Adventurer level.
Keep in mind that people might be wanting to bring with them characters who are Max Crafter Level/Low Adventurer Level.

Yes, which is kind of what the discussion is about. If vertical scaling from your adventuring levels is too high, trying to bring someone who has a low adventuring level would end with them constantly being one shot. Not a very enjoyable experience.

Taleof2Cities

George_Black wrote: »

Now for the PvE side...

I dont like it when mmos let newbies lv up together with higher lv group members, or when they scale the world to a players Lv, or a groups combined Lv power.

This might be the first time I disagree with you, @George_Black.

If the world is scaled, you can group up with friends at any time. Not to mention you’re not restricted to certain parts of the node … because it’s “optimal” for XP gain based on your level.

I’m not strongly opposed to character level restrictions, however.

But, I’d want to play with friends regardless of their level … I’m guessing you would too.

Dygz

mcstackerson wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Seems to be a focus on Adventurer level.
Keep in mind that people might be wanting to bring with them characters who are Max Crafter Level/Low Adventurer Level.

Yes, which is kind of what the discussion is about. If vertical scaling from your adventuring levels is too high, trying to bring someone who has a low adventuring level would end with them constantly being one shot. Not a very enjoyable experience.

I think that is more a matter of how much aggro a Low Level Adventurer generates when near a Max Level mob - and how well Max Level Tanks are able to mitigate that.

mcstackerson

Dygz wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Seems to be a focus on Adventurer level.
Keep in mind that people might be wanting to bring with them characters who are Max Crafter Level/Low Adventurer Level.

Yes, which is kind of what the discussion is about. If vertical scaling from your adventuring levels is too high, trying to bring someone who has a low adventuring level would end with them constantly being one shot. Not a very enjoyable experience.

I think that is more a matter of how much aggro a Low Level Adventurer generates when near a Max Level mob - and how well Max Level Tanks are able to mitigate that.

Yes, that is a factor but even if it's not different, if there are AOE damage abilities, there could be scenarios that it doesn't matter.

I guess what I'm getting at is it would be nice if the character with a low level adventure could go into one of these areas and not be as vulnerable. I want your scenario to happen and am concerned that in most scenarios it wouldn't be worth the risk.

Dygz

Like most stuff... we just have to test it, but... I'm not too worried about that at the moment.
I typically run my low-level characters all over MMORPG maps and know how to keep out of range of dangerous mobs.

daveywavey

Wulfenthrad wrote: »

So, my question is, how would players interact with each other with, say, a ten level difference to one another? Would you still want to bring the other player along to your activity

It's called Cannon Fodder!

Atama

daveywavey wrote: »

Wulfenthrad wrote: »

So, my question is, how would players interact with each other with, say, a ten level difference to one another? Would you still want to bring the other player along to your activity

It's called Cannon Fodder!

"Welcome to the team, Giggles. Glad to have you."

"Thanks fellas! I think it's swell that you'll let me tag along, I know I'm not as strong as you all but I won't let you down!"

"We know you won't. We're glad to have you. We're so excited we got you this new tunic, it is enchanted to provide threat management bonuses."

"You guys are the best! I really love the bright red color, you could probably see this for miles! And the concentric circle design on the chest is really snazzy."

Merek

Wulfenthrad wrote: »

So, my question is, how would players interact with each other with, say, a ten level difference to one another? Would you still want to bring the other player along to your activity for the extra pair of hands, or would you simply not bother the "dead weight" and stick to a smaller party? On the flipside, would you be able to meaningfully participate in a group if you're well under the average level of the group?

This is very dependent on the final iteration of the games combat. If it leans too heavily into tab-target, dampening player skill in favor of character ability, then no, a player 10 levels below the main level of a group would be worthless to bring along, unless you were power-leveling them.

Wulfenthrad wrote: »

If you're being ganked by a higher level player should you reasonably be able to escape, or even win, with skillful play? Or would you simply have to hold the L?

I'm always for player skill being the major determining factor in any game, I'm aware this is an MMO, so some people wish to grind numbers so they can 'win'. That's fine, but if the combat allows players to be skillful enough, a low leveled player should be able to mop the floor with any high leveled player if they can't play for sh*t.

Wulfenthrad wrote: »

Personally I feel that there should be meaningful interaction between players, even if their levels are considerably apart. I also think Intrepid is aware of this and is designing classes with this in mind. With classes like mage and cleric getting abilities such as black hole, raise, and damnation which are more "static" abilities compared to those that get continuously stronger as you level up, at least to my knowledge, within the first ten levels.. I also think that in larger events, such as castle sieges, individual levels won't matter as much due to the sheer scope of the battle.

There was talk about splitting up the combat level from the crafting/life skill level, something like that, so technically, just because a character is level 10 that wouldn't mean they're useless, they just aren't combat viable. If I spent all day smithing, that wouldn't make my combat ability any better than a peasant levy's. I only slightly agree with the siege comment simply because if you've played any large scale games before, it always comes down to the heavy hitters being the last alive and they usually determine the fight.

Wulfenthrad wrote: »

But, what are your thoughts on the matter? Should level discrepancies be a common occurrence in a group, or should players "stick to their own lane"? If so, what range of levels do you deem acceptable? Let me know in the comments below.

That's up to us as players, isn't it? But realistically, until we're at least in Beta 1 or 2, we won't know how to really feel about it.

fabula

Going DOWN in levels/gear is a useful thing to have not only for playing with friends but also to replay game content. Its probably required due to the crafting system since I am assuming there's a lvl difference limit when mobs stop dropping loot items.

The opposite should not be allowed since it will devalue lvls/gear and will influence too many systems in order to balance it.

Child Item