Monetization

I am really discouraged to hear that the monetization will be coming from cosmetics. Cosmetics are a big part of the immersion of an mmorpg for me, a long-time role player. Having to pay for cosmetics with real money takes player customization out of the game and makes me enjoy it less.
Player customization is one of the most important features of a game for me. I don't necessarily mean face sliders either! I mean collecting things in game that are unique and special to my character. Collection is a huge feature to me in any mmorpg, but I do not like to pay extra for it as it feels like the fun of playing the game...
Things like outfits, house items, pets, and mounts are what I am assuming is going to be monetized. I feel that this added art could be continuously compensated fairly through a monthly fee.
These things add to the experience of playing the game... like rare items, specialty clothing shops, achievement items, etc.
It gives more to do in the game itself when specialty cosmetic items are earned. A monthly subscription fee is something many mmo players are comfortable and willing to pay for an engaging game. I would be willing to pay more than the average for a game with consistent "free" cosmetics being added to collect!

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Iridianny

Noaani wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

How many costumes are even needed here?

The answer is all.

Alright, I'mma file you under 'disingenuous', miss. Carry on then.

I mean seriously, I would like to collect as many as I can probably... I enjoy that part of the game. That is kind of the point of my post here. Retail WOW "end game" is farming transmogs and mounts. It's not an uncommon desire to like to collect appearances in mmo's. I thought it could be done in a more interesting way that is more engaging and provides more content to the game instead of a cash shop is all.

But you can still do that in Ashes, without the cash shop.

As said many times, people that enjoy this kind of thing are not the target audience of the cash shop.

Not to the same extent and cash shops always grow. They won't release new clothes and armor to the game they will release it to the cash shop. A new example of this is when wow released their new tier sets and they were awful and given very little time compared to the shiny set you can buy for extra!
Also, who is the target audience if not people who enjoy cosmetics?

Azherae

Iridianny wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

How many costumes are even needed here?

The answer is all.

Alright, I'mma file you under 'disingenuous', miss. Carry on then.

I mean seriously, I would like to collect as many as I can probably... I enjoy that part of the game. That is kind of the point of my post here. Retail WOW "end game" is farming transmogs and mounts. It's not an uncommon desire to like to collect appearances in mmo's. I thought it could be done in a more interesting way that is more engaging and provides more content to the game instead of a cash shop is all.

Oh, it's my issue. I thought you were making an argument for players who like Achievements.

I am a terrible person because I don't think of people like you as playing the game.

You are playing a different game that happens to exist within MMOs, in my mind. Therefore there's no need to put any development effort into making sure that you can play your game, nor to place any inconvenience on anyone else who came to play the thing I consider the game.

If you were saying "I want to be rewarded for doing things in the game with costumes, and I don't want other people to be able to buy those costumes" you would have my support and a long explanation on how that isn't happening as far as we heard last.

But I'm a fighting game player, you see, so when I hear "It's not fair that you get that costume color just because you're better at the game than me" I think "how can I help you get better at the game?"

When I hear 'It's not fair that CompanyName forces us who aren't good at the game to spend extra money so that we can get the same costumes as those who are good at the game", it sounds silly.

But you're all the way at "The game should be different and they should also give away all the costumes for free because I want all of them not just the ones I can earn no matter how cool they are", which is a business decision thing.

The entire point of having a cosmetic cash shop of this type is to give people a choice in whether or not they offer extra support. I never see it as being about Collectors or Completionists, other than to hope that they're also Whales and support games by throwing hundreds or thousands of dollars at every costume simply because those costumes exist.

And you know why I hope that?

Cause I don't wanna.

Geronimo

Iridianny wrote: »

Not to the same extent and cash shops always grow. They won't release new clothes and armor to the game they will release it to the cash shop. A new example of this is when wow released their new tier sets and they were awful and given very little time compared to the shiny set you can buy for extra! Also, who is the target audience if not people who enjoy cosmetics?

WTH! I thought we were fizzling?

Dygz

Karthos wrote: »

If you have such a huge issue with a MAJOR aspect of the game, do you even want to play this game?

Or do you want to play a version of it that's not it, but kinda like it?

Because coming into something with an invested community, who are all okay with said system, and wanting them to change it because you personally don't like it, because some minority of players MIGHT also like it that way is selfish as fuck.

It's like me walking into Taco Bell and saying "I don't like Burritos, you need to make me Spaghetti".

I'd get laughed out the door.

This is why people are not "understanding" your points. You are asking for Spaghetti in Taco Bell.

What a brilliant bandwagon to jump aboard.
I think I had a similar reaction, just way more abstract.

But, yes!
I'm not expecting McDonalds or Burger King to start selling tacos.
Jack-In-The-Box sells tacos as well as burgers. I'm not expecting Carl's Jr. to do the same thing.
It's fine to ask those other burger joints to sell tacos, but there should be no surprise if they don't comply.

Iridianny

Geronimo wrote: »

WTH! I thought we were fizzling?

I tried. :'(

Atama

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not expecting McDonalds or Burger King to start selling tacos.

Burger King sold tacos, I thought they were pretty good. I wish they'd bring them back. They were at least as good as Taco Bell.

This thread keeps making me hungry, dammit!

JustVine

Atama wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not expecting McDonalds or Burger King to start selling tacos.

Burger King sold tacos, I thought they were pretty good. I wish they'd bring them back. They were at least as good as Taco Bell.

This thread keeps making me hungry, dammit!

Was that when they were still using chargrill? I don't remember this being a thing. Also given the recent update to their value deals at bk I'd say McD's is more p2w than BK. They really have to update their value game. Dunno what the fastfood game is like where you are tho.

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

How many costumes are even needed here?

The answer is all.

Alright, I'mma file you under 'disingenuous', miss. Carry on then.

I mean seriously, I would like to collect as many as I can probably... I enjoy that part of the game. That is kind of the point of my post here. Retail WOW "end game" is farming transmogs and mounts. It's not an uncommon desire to like to collect appearances in mmo's. I thought it could be done in a more interesting way that is more engaging and provides more content to the game instead of a cash shop is all.

But you can still do that in Ashes, without the cash shop.

As said many times, people that enjoy this kind of thing are not the target audience of the cash shop.

Not to the same extent and cash shops always grow. They won't release new clothes and armor to the game they will release it to the cash shop. A new example of this is when wow released their new tier sets and they were awful and given very little time compared to the shiny set you can buy for extra!
Also, who is the target audience if not people who enjoy cosmetics?

You are making assumptions here.

Steven has said that equitable cosmetics, both from a quantity and quality standpoint, are achievable through in-game means. This means that if they add a costume to the store, they will add a new look to the game as well.

As long as we have trust in Steven and Intrepid (due to them sticking to what they have said they will do), then we have to believe that this will be the case.

Geronimo

Noaani wrote: »

You are making assumptions here.

Steven has said that equitable cosmetics, both from a quantity and quality standpoint, are achievable through in-game means. This means that if they add a costume to the store, they will add a new look to the game as well.

As long as we have trust in Steven and Intrepid (due to them sticking to what they have said they will do), then we have to believe that this will be the case.

@Iridianny stay strong, keep that fizz going

Iridianny

Noaani wrote: »

As long as we have trust in Steven and Intrepid (due to them sticking to what they have said they will do), then we have to believe that this will be the case.

Atama wrote: »

Claiming that people are worshipping Steven, essentially accusing people of being in a cult, you don't think that's insulting? You're being ridiculous.

You awaken in a dark room to a group surrounding you chanting, "as long as we have trust in Steven."

Azherae

Iridianny wrote: »
Noaani wrote: »

As long as we have trust in Steven and Intrepid (due to them sticking to what they have said they will do), then we have to believe that this will be the case.

Atama wrote: »

Claiming that people are worshipping Steven, essentially accusing people of being in a cult, you don't think that's insulting? You're being ridiculous.
You awaken in a dark room to a group surrounding you chanting, "as long as we have trust in Steven."

Yeahhh if your response is literally 'don't trust them, guys, tell them that they need to change it because you don't trust them!'

That's why you get this response.

Geronimo

@Iridianny you are the worst at fizzling

Atama

JustVine wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not expecting McDonalds or Burger King to start selling tacos.

Burger King sold tacos, I thought they were pretty good. I wish they'd bring them back. They were at least as good as Taco Bell.

This thread keeps making me hungry, dammit!

Was that when they were still using chargrill? I don't remember this being a thing. Also given the recent update to their value deals at bk I'd say McD's is more p2w than BK. They really have to update their value game. Dunno what the fastfood game is like where you are tho.

It was definitely a thing. They were called "Burger King Crispy Tacos".

75547c3d-a874-4964-a02a-21da1c8bc9ce-04113-4_Tacos_PR_Images_CR2.jpg

They weren't popular but I liked them. They also had hot dogs for a while, but I was "meh" about them. There were okay but nothing special.

My favorite place though is Jack in the Box. A full menu all day long, open 24 hours a day. Breakfast items, burgers, tacos, teriyaki, chicken, churros, milk shakes, any time morning, noon, late at night.

Value menus at all fast food places are awful though. Fast food prices are crazy. But then again, inflation has soared so relatively speaking I don't really know how much more expensive they are compared to 10 years ago.

JustVine

Thanks Atama now I want tacos I've never seen before -_- (I'm a sucker for tacos as a default and try basically any restaurants take.)

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »
Noaani wrote: »

As long as we have trust in Steven and Intrepid (due to them sticking to what they have said they will do), then we have to believe that this will be the case.

Atama wrote: »

Claiming that people are worshipping Steven, essentially accusing people of being in a cult, you don't think that's insulting? You're being ridiculous.
You awaken in a dark room to a group surrounding you chanting, "as long as we have trust in Steven."

I'm starting to think you have lost track of the conversation.

We are saying that we trust Steven and Intrepid at this stage, as they have not given us a reason to not trust them.

You are saying that you don't trust them, and so want them to take an action that will lead to the rest of us also not trusting them.

If you trust them so little, and they did come along and say that they would get rid of the cosmetic shop when the game launches, you would have no reason at all to believe them. If you did believe them if they said that, then you have to believe them when they say that there will be as many cosmetics in game as in the cash shop.

You can't only believe them when you are getting your way, you need to either believe them in what they say, or not believe them in what they say.

If you chose to not believe them in what they say, why are you even here?

Voidwalkers

While the cosmetics controversy does not bother me at all, the idea that "It's still ok to scrap cosmetics shop because Ashes is *not yet released*!" bothers me down to my every single nerve, from a software engineer's perspective

Ah, the dear, lovely, potential user who thinks anything can be changed as long as the product's still in development, and proceeds to make all kinds of fundamental level change requests in the late stage of a project

As if costs & schedule aren't a thing

I don't work for Intrepid so obviously I don't have the actual numbers, but let me guess what would happen if they suddenly scrap the cosmetics cash shop right now.

1. They have to do a MASSIVE partial refund. Just look at the number of ppl with "xxx pack, adventurer/braver/whatever" etc. in their title on this forum. Intrepid had been selling various packs WITH COSMETICS for YEARS already.

2. Since this takes away a major potential revenue stream for them, now they have to crunch the numbers again and rework their entire business model. Cut some costs here, try to open some new streams of revenue there.

3. Cutting costs at this stage likely means dropping features to trim development costs, or dropping performance to trim server costs. Either way will impact the game experience and likely piss off the majority of players, and also hurts Ashes's ability to compete with other games. It's 2022. ppl kinda take pretty graphics & low latency high response servers for granted.

4. "New" revenue stream kinda mean one or more of the followings, and none of them would bring a bright future for Ashes:

a. Higher box & subscription cost.
While we've had many "abolish the cash shop" threads on the forum before, we've also had many "cheaper subscription cost for low income regions plz" threads before. Raising the cost further is gonna piss off a lot of ppl. And simple economics dictates that you can only raise the price so much before you start losing players significantly.
Furthermore, being an "open world pvp, sandbox mmorpg" as advertised, player-driven content is vital to Ashes' success, i.e. maintaining a high active player count is essential (more than any other mmo).
A higher barrier to entry (cost-wise) is anything but unwise.

b. P2W cash shop.
"No P2W" is one of the fundamental promise Ashes is founded upon, and one of the primary reason ppl have gathered around Ashes. There are a shit-ton of P2W games already on the market (just look at the east asian market), it's a "good old traditional non P2W mmorpg" that we lack. This point is not even up for discussion. Change it, and I guarantee Intrepid would piss off 99% of the potential players PLUS THEMSELVES. At that point they'll likely lose even staff members, and doom their reputation forever as developers, since nobody will trust their promises in the future. So definitely no. Going this route is suicide and they know it.

c. Uh, sell ads? senator?
Imagine how frustrated you get whenever you open a f2p game with ads on your phone.
Now imagine that frustration amplified a hundred times over when you open a game with subscription but still has ads.
Nope.

d. If you have any practical 4th option, go apply for a job at any game company now. They need you.

TL;DR
IMO it IS too late to change something fundamental to the game's business model at this point. The costs alone already prohibits it. Not to mention the time & effort they have to spend on revamping their business model would only delay the release schedule further.

Well unless you can mathematically prove to Intrepid that scrapping the cosmetics shop would bring in SOOOOOOOOOOO many cosmetics-focused players, that their combined subscription will be more than enough to offset the costs & lost revenue, the shop's very likely to stay.

Iridianny

Voidwalkers wrote: »

While the cosmetics controversy does not bother me at all, the idea that "It's still ok to scrap cosmetics shop because Ashes is *not yet released*!" bothers me down to my every single nerve, from a software engineer's perspective

/shrug ?

Voidwalkers wrote: »

Ah, the dear, lovely, potential user who thinks anything can be changed as long as the product's still in development, and proceeds to make all kinds of fundamental level change requests in the late stage of a project

When is the release date? How did the art team feel about having to change the designs of the models at this stage? Why is cash shop an exception of late development change?

Voidwalkers wrote: »

I don't work for Intrepid so obviously I don't have the actual numbers, but let me guess what would happen if they suddenly scrap the cosmetics cash shop right now.

Guesses mean nothing and practically everything in your thirteen paragraph rebuttal to a "discouraged" perspective on cash shops and microtransactions has been said in this thread before, you're a little late. I am not going to suddenly be like, "yea cash shops ARE a good idea!" They have faults no matter what the reasoning is to use them.

Voidwalkers wrote: »

1. They have to do a MASSIVE partial refund. Just look at the number of ppl with "xxx pack, adventurer/braver/whatever" etc. in their title on this forum. Intrepid had been selling various packs WITH COSMETICS for YEARS already.

Nope. I don't see how it would defraud people to not do a cash shop on full release and make those exclusive items already purchased special for being a part of the early development funding, which is essentially what is being done with it. People are purchasing cosmetics for a game that isn't released yet.

Voidwalkers wrote: »

2. Since this takes away a major potential revenue stream for them, now they have to crunch the numbers again and rework their entire business model. Cut some costs here, try to open some new streams of revenue there.

Yea, sure. I offered other solutions everyone has some issue with, doesn't mean I like the current one. Each one affects different people. Some people don't want to pay a box price because they need that $60 for burger king. Some people don't want a slightly higher monthly fee because a slight change in the nearly 10 year $15 is scary. Some people don't like pay for alt slots because they are "altoholics" (even though it is the best option imo as it affects no gameplay per character.) No one likes pay to win, but reality is that cash shop = future pay to win in most potential scenarios. Perhaps when Steven, like every game company, sells out and the new buyers say, "oh look a cash shop, let's take advantage of that." Or maybe Steven just wants more revenue and it's been 3 years since his "promises." Or maybe the player base actually decides they want it! I am being realistic with where most mmo's have gone and the repeated path cash shops have, not blindly optimistic because of "promises."

As for the rest, it seems like you didn't read anything in this thread and I am tired of responding to people like that. Go take your software engineer perspective and do something good with it. I really don't think there is much else you can say that hasn't been said.

Taleof2Cities

Iridianny wrote: »

They won't release new clothes and armor to the game they will release it to the cash shop.

Noaani wrote: »

Steven has said that equitable cosmetics, both from a quantity and quality standpoint, are achievable through in-game means. This means that if they add a costume to the store, they will add a new look to the game as well.

@Noaani is right on this one.

Something catastrophic would have to happen for Steven to do an about-face on it's stance of equitable in-game cosmetics.

I don't expect Intrepid to be "keeping score" of in-game versus cash shop ... but I would expect it to stay equitable years after release.

Voidwalkers

Iridianny wrote: »

When is the release date? How did the art team feel about having to change the designs of the models at this stage? Why is cash shop an exception of late development change?

Coz art models are likely not something that's been nailed down in the early requirements / specs stage of the project? It's always expected to be something that can be modified / fine-tuned in a later stage without significantly hurting the rest of the project?

While removing the cash shop would heavily impact cash flow, and not being able to pay the bills would mean death?
And revamping Ashes's business model to something like P2W basically means Intrepid should target an entirely different audience, which means they have to redesign a significant portion of the game from the ground up?

Guesses mean nothing and practically everything in your thirteen paragraph rebuttal to a "discouraged" perspective on cash shops and microtransactions has been said in this thread before, you're a little late. I am not going to suddenly be like, "yea cash shops ARE a good idea!" They have faults no matter what the reasoning is to use them.

So as your take at "cash shop would ruin this game". It's pure guess from your perspective and means nothing. And I didn't expect to change your opinion about cash shop, I'm trying to point out it's pointless to argue about it at this point as Intrepid very likely will not change it, coz cost.

Yea, sure. I offered other solutions everyone has some issue with, doesn't mean I like the current one. Each one affects different people. Some people don't want to pay a box price because they need that $60 for burger king. Some people don't want a slightly higher monthly fee because a slight change in the nearly 10 year $15 is scary. Some people don't like pay for alt slots because they are "altoholics" (even though it is the best option imo as it affects no gameplay per character.) No one likes pay to win, but reality is that cash shop = future pay to win in most potential scenarios. Perhaps when Steven, like every game company, sells out and the new buyers say, "oh look a cash shop, let's take advantage of that." Or maybe Steven just wants more revenue and it's been 3 years since his "promises." Or maybe the player base actually decides they want it! I am being realistic with where most mmo's have gone and the repeated path cash shops have, not blindly optimistic because of "promises."

No, pay for cosmetics does NOT equal pay to win. At least that's the take for the majority of ppl on this forum, which partially explains the responses you're met with so far, and that's also the take for Intrepid, since they've declared no P2W and yet they have a cosmetics shop. To them P2W & paid cosmetics are different things.
As for the box & subscription cost increase, what you consider "slight" increase isn't "slight" for others, period.

It seems you're angry that your values, opinion & ideas are being dismissed, and yet at the same time you're dismissing things that other ppl value. And yet you expect a ... discussion?

As for the rest, it seems like you didn't read anything in this thread

Yup I've stopped after page 2 since there have been similar threads before, and all have ended in the same way. The only thing new here is you're probably the one who've gone the furthest - by suggesting replacing cosmetics shop with full-blown P2W.

and I am tired of responding to people like that.

I'd say for the exact same reason you're getting hostile responses from others. We're all tired of this. Though sometimes we're bored and do respond.
Since we're all tired, let's agree on that we'll just let this thread sink, like all other similar threads before this one have been. Cool?

I really don't think there is much else you can say that hasn't been said.

Exactly! I feel the same for every single cosmetics shop thread!
The cost argument's still relatively new I think.

I think the major issue here, is you're arguing for Intrepid to change something that they've already announced will be in the game since day 1. And in order to address the counter arguments brought up by others, you've proposed to change even more fundamental stuff (low subscription fee, no p2w etc.) that Intrepid has announced since day 1.

I'd compare you to the folks who came here to argue for "No open PvP becoz we love safe PvE", or "No corruption becoz we love killing ppl"

I don't mean to trash your way of enjoying games. Cosmetics progression? Collectors? Achievers? Perfectly fine. It's not something I would enjoy, but perfectly valid.
But this is not what Intrepid advertised Ashes to be. This is not what the majority of ppl on this forum got drawn to Ashes for.

The thing is, Intrepid has announced since a very early point, that Ashes will be:

- Absolutely No P2W
- Open PvP with karma-ish system (corruption)
- No box cost, relatively low subscription fee (according to western standard) at ~$15/month
- Has a cosmetics cash shop
- No or very limited fast traveling
- Mixed action & tab targeting

Most of the ppl who got drawn to Ashes, and bothered to sign up for an account, or even prepaid for it, more or less shared those values and wanted to play a game as advertised --- otherwise why don't we just look elsewhere? It's not like we have an Intrepid account forced upon us, and we're suddenly forced to play Ashes in the future.

And yet somehow ppl kept coming here and argue for ...
- Complete protection against ganking
- Complete removal of corruption system
- F2P
- More fast travels, summoning, teleporting
- pure action or tab targeting
- Removal of cosmetics shop
... and wonder why most ppl on the forum don't agree with them, and why many are even dismissive of their opinions. Again and again.

/shrug?

I've asked the ppl arguing for "no open pvp in ashes" before, so I'll ask you too.

Why are you here at all? Why argue that Ashes should change and become the game YOU want (at the expense of others), instead of go out there and find another game that suits your criteria?

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

Some people don't like pay for alt slots because they are "altoholics" (even though it is the best option imo as it affects no gameplay per character.)

It does affect gameplay though, it would mean people are unable to play all primary classes without having to pay more to do so.

Cosmetics doesn't affect gameplay at all. Nothing you have said has given any reason ass to why it would affect gameplay.

Sure, there are people out there that enjoy playing the game to collect cosmetics. Ashes still allows for that, the cash shop doesn't change this.

A cosmetic only cash shop has literally zero negative affect on gameplay, which is why it is the option Intrepid went with.

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