Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » And if your answer is “just get other hardcore players to help and defend you” then that’s not a satisfying answer. Most people don’t play games to have to beg for help and for babysitting. That wouldn't be my answer. My answer would be - those people need to learn to deal with it. Players that play the game more are going to get better at playing the game. This should be obvious. It is also obvious that the game should reward the hunt for better gear - with better gear. While some may argue that no game can survive without casuals, it is even more true that no game can disable human nature to get better at things, and no persistent MMO would survive without an appropriate reward structure. There is no helping people that play a game for 5 hours a week and think they are as good as someone that plays the game 30 hours a week. People love to overstate their ability at things- this can be seen in many surveys where people have to self evaluate how good at a thing they are (about 70% of drivers think they are better than average, as an example). This isn't an issue for Intrepid to solve, or even to consider. it is just the way things are, and people need to deal with it. People that play the game more will be able to beat you.
VmanGman wrote: » And if your answer is “just get other hardcore players to help and defend you” then that’s not a satisfying answer. Most people don’t play games to have to beg for help and for babysitting.
VmanGman wrote: » But that’s the thing… most of them won’t deal with it. They will quit.
VmanGman wrote: » Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » And if your answer is “just get other hardcore players to help and defend you” then that’s not a satisfying answer. Most people don’t play games to have to beg for help and for babysitting. That wouldn't be my answer. My answer would be - those people need to learn to deal with it. Players that play the game more are going to get better at playing the game. This should be obvious. It is also obvious that the game should reward the hunt for better gear - with better gear. While some may argue that no game can survive without casuals, it is even more true that no game can disable human nature to get better at things, and no persistent MMO would survive without an appropriate reward structure. There is no helping people that play a game for 5 hours a week and think they are as good as someone that plays the game 30 hours a week. People love to overstate their ability at things- this can be seen in many surveys where people have to self evaluate how good at a thing they are (about 70% of drivers think they are better than average, as an example). This isn't an issue for Intrepid to solve, or even to consider. it is just the way things are, and people need to deal with it. People that play the game more will be able to beat you. But that’s the thing… most of them won’t deal with it. They will quit. And a game with as much content as AoC and with servers as big as they plan to have, will not do well without many players (casuals). It’s such a small price to pay… just make gear disparity not be as great… as a matter of fact I would argue that it’s not even a price to pay. I wouldn’t enjoy just mopping through people that I outgear just because the power difference between me and them is insurmountable… that’s boring for the winner and disheartening for the loser who will eventually quit. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be rewarded for their time investment. I’m just saying that it should not result in insurmountable gear differences.
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » But that’s the thing… most of them won’t deal with it. They will quit. But that's the thing... this doesn't happen in any other game. Sure, some casuals quit. Without a doubt. Most of them though, they find a niche in the game and they enjoy themselves.
VmanGman wrote: » Once again, it’s not a big sacrifice… so I don’t know why you’re even arguing with me. Hardcore players will still have 20-30% of power increase from items which is still VERY significant.
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Once again, it’s not a big sacrifice… so I don’t know why you’re even arguing with me. Hardcore players will still have 20-30% of power increase from items which is still VERY significant. But what about in 6 months when Intrepid need to add more content, then 6 months later, and 6 months later again? The top end of any game is constantly moving up at a faster pace than casual gamers are ever able to match. So, what you have here is an ineffective system (it is the skill of the players that play a lot that is effective more than the gear), that does nothing at all to solve the issue (casual players being easy pickings), and comes at the cost of initial top end progression as well as continued progression as the game adds new content. Just to reiterate what you are saying, you want the game to focus more on skill rather than gear so that the people with less game time, and thus less skill, are less easy to kill. Do you not see how increasing the skill involved in the game in relation to gear would have the opposite effect of what you are wanting? The people with more time to play would develop skill better and faster, and thus be able to better kill those with less time in the game and thus less skill. One need only look at games like MOBA's and BR's and compare the ability of someone that plays 40 hours a week to someone that plays just a few to see that making things skill reliant is worse than making them gear reliant in that regard.
VmanGman wrote: » No. You’re totally missing the point. It would not have the opposite effect. Hardcore players will technically have more skill anyway. I’m not suggesting that the skill ceiling be increased. Im merely suggesting that skill should have a greater role which can be achieved by reducing the amount of power that can be gained from gear (limiting it to about 20-30%). It would not have the opposite effect… if hardcore players are technically better at the game because they play more, they don’t need even more advantages through gear differences adding an insurmountable power difference. Once again, by putting more focus on skill, you don’t have to increase the skill ceiling. You just have to reduce the focus on gear.
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » No. You’re totally missing the point. It would not have the opposite effect. Hardcore players will technically have more skill anyway. I’m not suggesting that the skill ceiling be increased. Im merely suggesting that skill should have a greater role which can be achieved by reducing the amount of power that can be gained from gear (limiting it to about 20-30%). It would not have the opposite effect… if hardcore players are technically better at the game because they play more, they don’t need even more advantages through gear differences adding an insurmountable power difference. Once again, by putting more focus on skill, you don’t have to increase the skill ceiling. You just have to reduce the focus on gear. I know you aren't suggesting to increase the skill cap, but you are suggesting an increase in the importance of skill. Perhaps I should have mentioned specifically why this is not going to achieve the desired result you are after. Intrepid have absolutely no control over player skill. Intrepid do have control over how easy it is to get gear. As such, with gear being important, Intrepid can increase the ability of players to get specific qualities of gear. Every game I have ever played has seen developers at some point make alterations to gear and/or gear acquisition in order to assist in closing the gap between the players that spend more time in game and those that do not. If you reduce the ability for this to be done via gear, you reduce the ability (reduce, not eliminate) for the developer to control this. This is another case in which Archeage is a great example. They added specific gear sets to the game all the time to assist players in achieving a minimum standard of gear, and as they added new gear to the top end, they lowered the difficult in achieving gear a few tiers below. This did a great job of keeping 75% of players within 25% of each other in terms of gear - and it was only those so casual as to not understand what this gear was, or those so hardcore they were spending five figures a year on the game that were outside of that.
JamesSunderland wrote: » @VmanGman I see, sadly it seems that you was unable to compreehend that even tho 20-30% is slightly meaningful (specially when comparing gear extremes), it isn't meaningful enough for a MMORPG with meaningful gear progression, i don't know it might be a lack of experience or knowledge in this matter.
Dygz wrote: » “ Casuals that keep getting killed and have their farming spots and caravans taken without even standing a chance will quit. The vast majority of casuals won’t want to keep playing if they keep losing.” You keep making this unsubstantiated claim - as it applies to Ashes - and we keep telling you that Corruption is designed to deter that and… if Corruption does not sufficiently deter it as promised, Ashes fails in any case, regardless of gear, because the players who don’t love direct PvP combat will leave in droves. Wait to test Corruption. Wait to test gear compared to other power features a d mechanics. The devs will be adjusting all of that based on feedback from testing the game, rather than from unsubstantiated disaster stories you fabricate in your imagination. If the gear is actually not well-balanced during testing, everyone will be providing that feedback. Including the devs.
VmanGman wrote: » Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » No. You’re totally missing the point. It would not have the opposite effect. Hardcore players will technically have more skill anyway. I’m not suggesting that the skill ceiling be increased. Im merely suggesting that skill should have a greater role which can be achieved by reducing the amount of power that can be gained from gear (limiting it to about 20-30%). It would not have the opposite effect… if hardcore players are technically better at the game because they play more, they don’t need even more advantages through gear differences adding an insurmountable power difference. Once again, by putting more focus on skill, you don’t have to increase the skill ceiling. You just have to reduce the focus on gear. I know you aren't suggesting to increase the skill cap, but you are suggesting an increase in the importance of skill. Perhaps I should have mentioned specifically why this is not going to achieve the desired result you are after. Intrepid have absolutely no control over player skill. Intrepid do have control over how easy it is to get gear. As such, with gear being important, Intrepid can increase the ability of players to get specific qualities of gear. Every game I have ever played has seen developers at some point make alterations to gear and/or gear acquisition in order to assist in closing the gap between the players that spend more time in game and those that do not. If you reduce the ability for this to be done via gear, you reduce the ability (reduce, not eliminate) for the developer to control this. This is another case in which Archeage is a great example. They added specific gear sets to the game all the time to assist players in achieving a minimum standard of gear, and as they added new gear to the top end, they lowered the difficult in achieving gear a few tiers below. This did a great job of keeping 75% of players within 25% of each other in terms of gear - and it was only those so casual as to not understand what this gear was, or those so hardcore they were spending five figures a year on the game that were outside of that. What you’re suggesting can still be done when gear consists of 20-30% power difference.
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » No. You’re totally missing the point. It would not have the opposite effect. Hardcore players will technically have more skill anyway. I’m not suggesting that the skill ceiling be increased. Im merely suggesting that skill should have a greater role which can be achieved by reducing the amount of power that can be gained from gear (limiting it to about 20-30%). It would not have the opposite effect… if hardcore players are technically better at the game because they play more, they don’t need even more advantages through gear differences adding an insurmountable power difference. Once again, by putting more focus on skill, you don’t have to increase the skill ceiling. You just have to reduce the focus on gear. I know you aren't suggesting to increase the skill cap, but you are suggesting an increase in the importance of skill. Perhaps I should have mentioned specifically why this is not going to achieve the desired result you are after. Intrepid have absolutely no control over player skill. Intrepid do have control over how easy it is to get gear. As such, with gear being important, Intrepid can increase the ability of players to get specific qualities of gear. Every game I have ever played has seen developers at some point make alterations to gear and/or gear acquisition in order to assist in closing the gap between the players that spend more time in game and those that do not. If you reduce the ability for this to be done via gear, you reduce the ability (reduce, not eliminate) for the developer to control this. This is another case in which Archeage is a great example. They added specific gear sets to the game all the time to assist players in achieving a minimum standard of gear, and as they added new gear to the top end, they lowered the difficult in achieving gear a few tiers below. This did a great job of keeping 75% of players within 25% of each other in terms of gear - and it was only those so casual as to not understand what this gear was, or those so hardcore they were spending five figures a year on the game that were outside of that. What you’re suggesting can still be done when gear consists of 20-30% power difference. It can, but when you lower the power difference of gear, you increase the power difference of skill - which again is something Intrepid have no control over. If gear consists of 20 - 30% of a characters power, that means player skill represents 70 - 80%. Players that spend more time in game will still have the advantage in that 70 - 80% - this is not a result of increasing the skill cap, it is a result of decreasing the gear gap. This would mean that at best, Intrepid are able to assist in this gap to close maybe 5% of the total gap, whereas if the gear gap were a larger portion of this total gap, they could close a larger total portion of it.
Dygz wrote: » Yeah. And those s are mixed groups, so the imaginary gear disparity you concoct wouldn’t really matter much anyway. Just because you can imagine doomsday scenarios does not mean they will truly play out as you imagine.
