Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

So saying that casuals will just need to quit if they don’t like losing due to insurmountable gear power differences makes no sense.

Hmm - that's some interesting editing. Let me know when you're interested in having an intellectually honest conversation.

You said: “no one is being forced into anything” and “if it’s not your cup of tea, then set it down and walk away”. If casuals cannot fight back with a chance to win because the gear power disparity is insurmountable, then they are forced to get a babysitter or to try to partake in other gameplay. If not, you said that they should “set it down and walk away” - quit.

Where is the dishonest and intellectually lacking editing?

JamesSunderland

After 8 pages our dear friend @VmanGman still stuck with his original "20-30% of a character's power", it seems that the 40-50% Steven is aiming for might be too high for The Saviour of the Casuals.

How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?

Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?

Dygz

VmanGman wrote: »

You should reread because you’re clearly not understanding… as proven above when you argued against something that I never argued for. I never asked for casuals to be able to grind gear solo… please read what I say before you blurt out responses.

I don't think I stated that you asked for it. What you did was complain about the plight of solo casuals as if the only way for them to gain gear that makes them competitive with hardcores is to grind solo. Apparently, the only solution to that if the devs don't use your "solution", is for casuals to be babysat by hardcores.

VmanGman wrote: »

I never asked for solo gear acquisition… I only asked for gear power differences to not be too great so that casual players could stand a chance when they play the game solo or in small groups without needing a hardcore player babysitter.

Again, I didn't say you asked for solo gear acquisition.
You don't even need to as for the differences to not be too great because the devs will already balance that during playtests. As you've been told multiple times.

It is not I who misunderstands what you've written, it is you who cannot properly comprehend what I've written.

VmanGman wrote: »

insurmountable gear power differences

This is pure conjecture on your part, it's an opinion without data, without testing, without context. It's just you screaming into the sky and not actually hearing pretty much anything said as responses to your own 'discussion' thread.

So parsing my response and injecting your conjecture as part of that argument is just silly. I've clearly, and consistently conveyed the same basic points in every single response:

1. Gear will be appropriately adjusted based on testing
2. It is the player's responsibility to understand the game they are logging into
3. The game environment is biased toward a dangerous pvx, risk v. reward world, where players are challenged to rise to the occasion instead of the environment being softened

We can go back and forth till the cows come home, but own your own words.

JamesSunderland wrote: »

After 8 pages our dear friend @VmanGman still stuck with his original "20-30% of a character's power", it seems that the 40-50% Steven is aiming for might be too high for The Saviour of the Casuals.

How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?

Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?

It remains to be tested, but yes it seems like a lot.

VmanGman wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Is getting ganked while farming fun?

In Ashes, will people get ganked enough for it to be an issue?

There will be plenty of PvP between the flagging system, guild wars, node wars, caravans etc. If your main option as a casual is to accept your defeat because gear disparity is too great, then the game is not fun. That's all there is to it.

And that's the impasse you're at. You're arguing with people who don't believe this is how it will be.

And it's true that they don't have a reason to believe that's how it will be. But even if it was, most of the people you're engaged with don't care, because that's what they explicitly want the game to be.

You'll have to rely on Intrepid to go beyond the expectation you have but that's only IF that's not the intention.

VmanGman wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

After 8 pages our dear friend @VmanGman still stuck with his original "20-30% of a character's power", it seems that the 40-50% Steven is aiming for might be too high for The Saviour of the Casuals.

How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?

Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?

It remains to be tested, but yes it seems like a lot.

I can crunch numbers for you and basically 'prove you right' if you want, at least to a point. But be warned that the posters you are currently talking to, do not care. Not because they do not understand the numbers, but because generally, the outcome of the numbers is what they desire the game to be.

Let me put it another way for you.

Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.

Dygz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

You should reread because you’re clearly not understanding… as proven above when you argued against something that I never argued for. I never asked for casuals to be able to grind gear solo… please read what I say before you blurt out responses.

I don't think I stated that you asked for it. What you did was complain about the plight of solo casuals as if the only way for them to gain gear that makes them competitive with hardcores is to grind solo. Apparently, the only solution to that if the devs don't use your "solution", is for casuals to be babysat by hardcores.

VmanGman wrote: »

I never asked for solo gear acquisition… I only asked for gear power differences to not be too great so that casual players could stand a chance when they play the game solo or in small groups without needing a hardcore player babysitter.

Again, I didn't say you asked for solo gear acquisition.
You don't even need to as for the differences to not be too great because the devs will already balance that during playtests. As you've been told multiple times.

It is not I who misunderstands what you've written, it is you who cannot properly comprehend what I've written.

You still don’t get it. You understand that there is more gameplay to AoC than just getting gear, right? That means that solo or small group casuals could be attacked without much chance to fight back when they are doing some of the many solo or small group activities. That’s why you bringing up solo gear acquisition makes no sense when the post has nothing to do with gear acquisition.

Azherae wrote: »

Let me put it another way for you.

Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.

Heh - you and I always have the ability to talk no matter how heated or pedantic the thread. Which I always enjoy.

There are a few assumptions you're making in this statement that are worth examining.

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

insurmountable gear power differences

This is pure conjecture on your part, it's an opinion without data, without testing, without context. It's just you screaming into the sky and not actually hearing pretty much anything said as responses to your own 'discussion' thread.

So parsing my response and injecting your conjecture as part of that argument is just silly. I've clearly, and consistently conveyed the same basic points in every single response:

1. Gear will be appropriately adjusted based on testing
2. It is the player's responsibility to understand the game they are logging into
3. The game environment is biased toward a dangerous pvx, risk v. reward world, where players are challenged to rise to the occasion instead of the environment being softened

We can go back and forth till the cows come home, but own your own words.

I’m totally in agreement that this needs to be tested. However, based data collected from years of MMOs it’s clear that gear power differences can sway the outcome of a battle to be very one sided if they are too great. It’s just how MMOs work.

1. I agree with you.
2. Yes, and if casuals get destroyed over and over again because the gear power difference is too great, they will quit and the game will die. If you’re willing to let a game die just because “they knew what they signed up for”, I guess I can’t say much more.
3. Yes, they are challenged to rise to the occasion, but once again… if the gear power difference is too great, they might not be able to rise.

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

After 8 pages our dear friend @VmanGman still stuck with his original "20-30% of a character's power", it seems that the 40-50% Steven is aiming for might be too high for The Saviour of the Casuals.

How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?

Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?

It remains to be tested, but yes it seems like a lot.

I can crunch numbers for you and basically 'prove you right' if you want, at least to a point. But be warned that the posters you are currently talking to, do not care. Not because they do not understand the numbers, but because generally, the outcome of the numbers is what they desire the game to be.

Let me put it another way for you.

Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.

.

I understand that. Thanks for speaking up. I also know that the people posting in this thread against my suggestion are the minority and that the casuals that might quit if gear power disparities are too great are the majority. So I will keep advocating because AoC is the MMO I’ve always dreamt of and I don’t want it to die or lack in player base and funding.

CROW3 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Let me put it another way for you.

Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.

Heh - you and I always have the ability to talk no matter how heated or pedantic the thread. Which I always enjoy.

There are a few assumptions you're making in this statement that are worth examining.

Honestly I would LOVE to be more nuanced about it, but of course it should be noted that I'm not actually supporting the OP that much here. This topic isn't that black and white, and @VmanGman isn't even concerned about the specific thing being complained about, it is, as you said, moreso a 'victim situation'.

Also, I probably can't easily clarify who I mean by 'most people', but it excludes Dygz (for reasons I can't say by rules), you (because you're pointing out a clear flaw without even addressing the direct point), James (who seems to be just trying to get the OP to see something), and I guess whatever I've seen from Noaani based on what was quoted.

The sentiment from the other data of other posters has been highly in the direction noted. I can give exact numbers if you want.

JamesSunderland

Azherae wrote: »

I can crunch numbers for you and basically 'prove you right' if you want, at least to a point.

Not gonna lie, i would be extremely interested in those numbers.

cosmichedgehog

Speaking as a casual, and speaking only for myself, I am far more worried about playing a Tulnar and being an RPer than I am gear imbalance. And to be honest I'm not terribly worried about those two things Gear balance will get worked out. It will never make everyone 100% happy however, but it will be addressed. There is no need to dumb down any system for me. I've been playing games for over 10 years as filthy casual, so I don't think one more game is going to kill me.

From what I've seen in some threads, I have more fear of being ganked for playing a Tulnar than I do as a mere mortal casual player. And over the past 10 years I've grown used to being griefed on occasion for RPing - even on RP servers where the PVP bottom feeders with no skill go to grief people to make themselves feel superior.

If you are going to play an MMORPG at any level you have to remember the first rule: people online suck. Yep, pretty bitter and jaded but, I will argue realistic. But I am still here. There are always going to be some imbalances. As old ones are worked out, new ones will appear. It will always be an ongoing, imperfect thing. I plan on some solo play, and joining node battles, and caravans and all those dangerous things that I should avoid. I plan on dying a lot and losing things. Toward that end, I am trying to recruit friends and family who are a bit more hardcore and/or good at PVP - for reasons. I also plan on being careful about what I carry on my character. The one I do not expect, or want, is to be treated like a snowflake or child because I am a casual and therefore need something special.

Heartbeat

I believe Steven has commented in past streams that gear and level disparity wont be huge, players around 10 levels apart wont be very far apart but obviously the higher level and more geared player will have the advantage. After launch whenever it is, as players reach max lvl after some time and begin min-maxing their end game gear we will see what the difference really is between a very high geared player and someone whos casual and 5-10 levels from max.

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I can crunch numbers for you and basically 'prove you right' if you want, at least to a point.

Not gonna lie, i would be extremely interested in those numbers.

Sure, but bear in mind that these things are huge. Like, 40 page design document huge. I couldn't possibly give you an airtight data struct without revealing a ton of stuff about the development of my own project, which I'm not at liberty to do.

And as multiple people pointed out in previous posts, the entire premise is broken, it only makes sense if 40% is the distance between 'slightly better than stock gear' and 'Slightly less than best in slot gear'. Which isn't what Intrepid's aim is even given as. It's literally 'your character gets half their power from their gear'. That could easily mean:

Your base Constitution stat at level 50 is 75, and your additional Constitution stat from your gear is also 75.

Or it could mean 'In order to get past the average part of the calculation for damage, your character's naked strength would cause them to deal only half damage, so you will need gear to reach what we designed as full damage' (this is the way I know how to design things, you do it backward from 'intended full damage')

VmanGman wrote: »

1. I agree with you.
2. Yes, and if casuals get destroyed over and over again because the gear power difference is too great, they will quit and the game will die. If you’re willing to let a game die just because “they knew what they signed up for”, I guess I can’t say much more.
3. Yes, they are challenged to rise to the occasion, but once again… if the gear power difference is too great, they might not be able to rise.

Your #2 & 3 assume that #1 is done poorly, and your conditional conclusions are one possible outcome based on that assumption. Again - all conjecture leaning toward a worst case scenario.

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

1. I agree with you.
2. Yes, and if casuals get destroyed over and over again because the gear power difference is too great, they will quit and the game will die. If you’re willing to let a game die just because “they knew what they signed up for”, I guess I can’t say much more.
3. Yes, they are challenged to rise to the occasion, but once again… if the gear power difference is too great, they might not be able to rise.

Your #2 & 3 assume that #1 is done poorly, and your conditional conclusions are one possible outcome based on that assumption. Again - all conjecture leaning toward a worst case scenario.

Isn’t that what development and alphas are for? To discuss these possible issues and make sure that they are addressed?

VmanGman wrote: »

Isn’t that what development and alphas are for? To discuss these possible issues and make sure that they are addressed?

Absolutely.