DPS Meter Megathread

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Azryil

Further, Square Enix has stated that they are against using combat trackers because of the side effects, in that players could be excluded or removed from groups because of the data they parse. Which is why people talk about their use freely without getting banned so long as they don't use them to harass other players for poor performance. I don't see why a similar stance couldn't be taken in Ashes of Creation.

Dygz

No. Players don't decide what mechanics and systems are necessary. Players decide what mechanics and systems they would like the devs to implement.

Ashes already has a similar stance, AFAIK.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

No. Players don't decide what mechanics and systems are necessary. Players decide what mechanics and systems they would like the devs to implement.

Ashes already has a similar stance, AFAIK.

We aren't talking about systems or mechanics. We are talking about tools.

They are different things.

BlackBrony

Let's be honest. Do people even know what a Combat tracker is? Without a definition, you can't say you won't them or not. I don't think people know.
In Wow you have DBM, maybe people think that is it. You also have Weak Auras.

Noaani

BlackBrony wrote: »

Let's be honest. Do people even know what a Combat tracker is? Without a definition, you can't say you won't them or not. I don't think people know.
In Wow you have DBM, maybe people think that is it. You also have Weak Auras.

A lot of people do think this - in fact, most of the people coming in to this thread and posting that they do not want trackers make the assumption that it is a DBM style thing we are talking about.

This is why I make a point to correct each such person.

Tragnar

Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution

in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons

in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated

and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.

If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.

However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

Again...unnecessary details.
People know WTF killed them without relying on DPS meters.

How is more detail about anything unnecessary?? Someone mentioned crushing in WoW, that is a perfect example. Because if the tank take a crushing blow that means that the tank isn't wearing enough defence gear, meaning that the tank needs more tanking Gear (+defence or +block). Or maybe the boss did a parry/haste on the tank (two quick hits after each other) meaning that maybe someone other than the tank was Infront of the boss hitting it = higher chance of the boss parrying = double hits. Or maybe it was just a crit/bad luck (even though you can get crit immune as well). All of this is shown in combat trackers and you can dig up what really killed you and fix it in just a minute. Information is key.

rikardp98

Tragnar wrote: »

Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution

in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons

in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated

and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.

If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.

However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)

No that's combat assistance addons (WA or DBM) and not combat trackers

rikardp98

BlackBrony wrote: »

Let's be honest. Do people even know what a Combat tracker is? Without a definition, you can't say you won't them or not. I don't think people know.
In Wow you have DBM, maybe people think that is it. You also have Weak Auras.

DBM and WA are combat assistance addons, warcraft logs is a type combat tracker.

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution

Is not a solution to what?
The hardcore PvP folk want PvP without Corruption. SOme of them want full loot.
The PvE-only folk want separate PvE-Only servers.
The RP folk want separate RP servers.

Tragnar wrote: »

If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.

You can't always get what you want.

Tragnar

rikardp98 wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution

in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons

in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated

and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.

If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.

However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)

No that's combat assistance addons (WA or DBM) and not combat trackers

how is your reply in any way relevant? if you didnt stop at the second sentence then you'd realise it was just to illustrate a point about meters that in wow it isnt even enough to have a meter, because you actually need assist addons

rikardp98

Tragnar wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Forcing players to play the game in a certain way that devs want is not a solution

in wow you basically are left doing only the easiest raid difficulties if you dont install combat assist addons, because the game actually relies on you to have those addons

in ffxiv the only thing you can rly use is tracker and devs acknowledge that it is to your benefit if you use one correctly, but harassment of others because you found they are weak players is not tolerated

and in lost ark everything is perfectly telegraphed so you perfectly know to which oneshot mechanic you died to and even then you have a custom room where you can measure with dps meter your performance, you can customize all of your stats and most build options even if you didnt acquire those yet.

If ashes is going to be heavily stat heavy with the whole trinity system then you cant avoid people wanting and using meters.

However there is a big possibility that the difficulty of raiding in ashes is going to be solely derived through the social and pvp aspect, where the monsters difficulty dont really matter, because you can smoke it even with pvp specced raid (and this is the way I see ashes going currently)

No that's combat assistance addons (WA or DBM) and not combat trackers

how is your reply in any way relevant? if you didnt stop at the second sentence then you'd realise it was just to illustrate a point about meters that in wow it isnt even enough to have a meter, because you actually need assist addons

Sorry maybe you were responding to someone that ni missed in this long thread (haven't really read everything these last pages) but what relevance is your comment to DPS meter or combat trackers?

Again maybe you where responding to something that commented on gameplay and mechanics, then I'm sorry

Aaannndd you did say combat trackers, that is way i responded:)

Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Again...unnecessary details.
People know WTF killed them without relying on DPS meters.

How is more detail about anything unnecessary?? Someone mentioned crushing in WoW, that is a perfect example. Because if the tank take a crushing blow that means that the tank isn't wearing enough defence gear, meaning that the tank needs more tanking Gear (+defence or +block). Or maybe the boss did a parry/haste on the tank (two quick hits after each other) meaning that maybe someone other than the tank was Infront of the boss hitting it = higher chance of the boss parrying = double hits. Or maybe it was just a crit/bad luck (even though you can get crit immune as well). All of this is shown in combat trackers and you can dig up what really killed you and fix it in just a minute. Information is key.

More detail is pretty much the epitome of unnecessary.
You don't need a DPS meter to tell you that a Tank needs more defense gear. You might want to use a DPS meter to give you numbers to help you try to efficiently calculate a minimum number of stats for the gear.
Although, who says that the added defense needs to come from gear? The added defense could come from Passive Skills or augments. And sufficient augments could come from synergizing with others in your group.
Steven doesn't want people looking at a DPS meter to use numerical values as a solution to solving challenges. That's why he doesn't even want numerical values on Health Bars.
Steven wants people to think, "Oh! Maybe we should get our Shadow Guardian and Spellstone to support our Guardian." Soul Weaver and Shadow Disciple might also help with that.

You don't need a calculator to compute math.
You might want one.

You don't need a DPS meter to notice two quick hits after each other.
You also don't need a DPS meter to understand being hit by a Crit.
In Ashes, we won't need DPS meters to defeat challenges.

Steven doesn't want you to just "fix it in a minute". For a variety of reasons.
It's the "fix it in a minute" mentality that leads to toxic behavior.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Again...unnecessary details.
People know WTF killed them without relying on DPS meters.

How is more detail about anything unnecessary?? Someone mentioned crushing in WoW, that is a perfect example. Because if the tank take a crushing blow that means that the tank isn't wearing enough defence gear, meaning that the tank needs more tanking Gear (+defence or +block). Or maybe the boss did a parry/haste on the tank (two quick hits after each other) meaning that maybe someone other than the tank was Infront of the boss hitting it = higher chance of the boss parrying = double hits. Or maybe it was just a crit/bad luck (even though you can get crit immune as well). All of this is shown in combat trackers and you can dig up what really killed you and fix it in just a minute. Information is key.

More detail is pretty much the epitome of unnecessary.
You don't need a DPS meter to tell you that a Tank needs more defense gear. You might want to use a DPS meter to give you numbers to help you try to efficiently calculate a minimum number of stats for the gear.
Although, who says that the added defense needs to come from gear? The added defense could come from Passive Skills or augments. And sufficient augments could come from synergizing with others in your group.
Steven doesn't want people looking at a DPS meter to use numerical values as a solution to solving challenges. That's why he doesn't even want numerical values on Health Bars.
Steven wants people to think, "Oh! Maybe we should get our Shadow Guardian and Spellstone to support our Guardian." Soul Weaver and Shadow Disciple might also help with that.

You don't need a calculator to compute math.
You might want one.

You don't need a DPS meter to notice two quick hits after each other.
You also don't need a DPS meter to understand being hit by a Crit.
In Ashes, we won't need DPS meters to defeat challenges.

Steven doesn't want you to just "fix it in a minute". For a variety of reasons.
It's the "fix it in a minute" mentality that leads to toxic behavior.

You say you don't need a DPS meter to tell if the tank needs more defence gear? But what type of defence gear he/she will need, you won't know unless you know what actually killed him/he, that is what I'm trying to say. Knowing what exactly kill you will determine how you optimize your gear. Was it a crit , then you may need gear to make crits less effective (resilience in wow for example), or was it a crushing blow, then you need more block value, was it a parry haste, then you need to look at the position of the boss and the raid. And as you say, getting stats from passives or buffes are a great example to make small changes. Some races/classes may have curtain buffs/abilities to make that little difference in defence value that you need.

Another good example where knowing what exactly killed you or another person is if the boss have some mechanic that the tank may need to use a CD like spell reflect or shield block. You as a healer, saw that the boss did a spell ability and the second after the tank died. You say to the tank, "you need to use spell reflect", and the ta k respond "i did use spell reflect but he melee hit me or something". How can you know if he is telling the truth or a lie? You can't. And trust me, people lie their asses kg if they make a mistake.

And btw, you do need a calculator to noticed to quick hits. Yesterday our tank took three it's in 0.7 second, try and notice that without a combat tracker.

You do need a combat tracker to notice a crit, because two hits, a crushing blow and a crit can technically do the same about of damage with in a second.

The fix in a minute mentally is to fix small problems like being under crit cap, being under crushing cap, being under avoidance cap. These small mistakes can take up hours if you don't know the cause of a death. I'm not talking about learning a boss mechanic in minutes, that will take time even if we have a combat tracker. My guild didn't kill lady vashj until a couple of weeks in phase 2 of wow tbc classic, even though we used combat trackers

Dygz

How will a Tank know what defense gear they wish to use reminds me of my Mom asking how my infant niece will learn to walk without shoes.

You don't need a combat tracker to notice a crit. Especially not when there are are visual FX for crits.
Small mistakes may add up to hours. Learning how to compensate. That's OK.

Your guild will likely have to adjust their expectations.
Same as folk who want a separate RP server.
Same as folk who want a separate PvE-Only server.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

You don't need a combat tracker to notice a crit. Especially not when there are are visual FX for crits.

In a top end raid, a tank can be taking 5 or 6 hits per second - and each can be a different damage type.

VFX aren't really your friend in that situation. Data is.

Scoots

Haven't been here in a while, but just to add yet another 2 cents on this topic. I'm big on data. The more data, the better. Every game that has allowed some sort of dps/healing meter has helped me play my role better. Has helped me tweak a rotation. Has helped me decide on a build. Has helped me decide on the type of gear I want/need. The augments I want/need. No bones about it, I'm a fan of having more data.

I would argue that it doesn't make the game easier, it only gives the game another dimension. Personally, I like as many dimensions as I can get with a game.

I think the guilds that become toxic due to min/maxing with meters, would STILL be toxic without. Some guilds will STILL only allow top players in their raid groups. They'll still know who isn't "pulling their weight" in a raid. They'll figure it out. At the end of the day, jerks will still be jerks.

If I'm in a guild and ask for help getting better...and I don't receive that help...and don't get to participate in more advanced content because I never received the help getting better...that group isn't for me and I move on to the next guild. That's going to be the case with or without meters. IMO

Fisher

Everyone saying DPS meters are toxic is just objectively wrong. Ignoring the obvious fact you can just join a different guild or group that doesn't care about that stuff (if you find it difficult to do so, that's because you're in the minority, which tells you all you need to know about how popular your view really is), people will find a way to measure performance and they will be jerks about it.

DPS meters? Immediate feedback about performance, and players get kicked for being bad.
No DPS meters? ACT and analyzing combat logs outside the game, kicking people based on that.
No ACT or combat logging of any kind? Spreadsheets using formulas derived from tooltips, kicking people based on builds that are proven to be mathematically superior.
No way to inspect other players? Request screenshare on Discord to show build, kicking people who refuse to do so or have bad builds.
No tooltips on abilities to derive formulas from? Health bars.
No health bars? Recording time to kill on individual mobs.

The further you go to restrict players, the less accurate the data becomes and the more unreasonable kicking people is, but rather than stopping the behavior, all you've done is drive away the people who care about their team's performance and made it more difficult for people to determine their own performance. You will drive WAY more people away trying to hide that data than would be driven away by DPS meters.

Caww

Given how much PvP is anticipated in AoC, a well designed DPS meter, along with other info, will almost be mandatory to eliminate so many questions on why you just got trounced. Most people don't care about the exact numbers they generate, just that they beat the mob or survived a PvP encounter (1v1 or 1vX).

The whole PvX thing will probably generate a lot of interest in knowing how much potential you have if jumped or are about to enter a situation. I've never numbered-crunched but I'm beginning to think I should be aware of weaknesses in my build to be addressed so I can enjoy the game with some surety of success.

Dygz

Might not be a weakness in build. More likely it's a weakness in how well you synergize the abilities of your group.

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