mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it. So, no ranked arena then? We can get rid of PvP seasons, as that is just a ranking system. Gear is just a ranking system based on your in game activities. While that last one may be a stretch, the first two are not. If the game has a ranking system, I fail to see how anyone can argue against other ranking systems. I never said there was anything wrong with scoreboards in general or encouraging players to do something The issue is how it's ranking players. As you know, dps isn't the sole decider of a classes effectiveness. Despite that, dps meters rank players by there dps which over emphasizes it.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it. So, no ranked arena then? We can get rid of PvP seasons, as that is just a ranking system. Gear is just a ranking system based on your in game activities. While that last one may be a stretch, the first two are not. If the game has a ranking system, I fail to see how anyone can argue against other ranking systems.
mcstackerson wrote: » If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Restricting/limiting players in-game knowledge is meaningless, people will always find ways to acquire said knowledge no matter how hard you try to hide it, especially if it involves competitive aspects of the game, where there is clear incentive for optimization, it will only create a bigger gap between people who acquire said knowledge and people who doesn't go in-depth into the game knowledge (at least until it's all put into spreadsheets and content creators makes videos about it). Believing No DPS meter = No Ultra "Toxic" Elitist who will ditch whoever doesn't meet their Gear, Class, Build standards is ludicrous. The good ol' blaming the tool instead of its bad user.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it. So, no ranked arena then? We can get rid of PvP seasons, as that is just a ranking system. Gear is just a ranking system based on your in game activities. While that last one may be a stretch, the first two are not. If the game has a ranking system, I fail to see how anyone can argue against other ranking systems. I never said there was anything wrong with scoreboards in general or encouraging players to do something The issue is how it's ranking players. As you know, dps isn't the sole decider of a classes effectiveness. Despite that, dps meters rank players by there dps which over emphasizes it. I still don't see how this is an issue among friends. I get it (sort of) among people you don't really know. I think combat trackers in pick up content is a bad idea, generally speaking. However, when you have a guild full of people that all understand what is going on, when they understand that only a half dozen or so of the people prese t are full DPS builds and so no one else has a shot at beating them in that shpere, but where they all have their own, I really can't see the issue. Even if we did assume there was an issue among friends, it isn't an insurmountable issue. Based on what you are saying, your issue isn't with combat trackers as a whole, it isn't with the data that is collected, it is with the data that get spit out of said combat tracker for easy player digestion. This is really easy to get around. If Intrepid add it to the game themselves, they can make it in a way where it wont rank people just by DPS at all. Make it so guilds can select what is most important to them (survivability, speed, accuracy with mechanics, whatever), and have the built in tracker spit out information to the raid based on that, leaving the details there for those that want details (people that want to look closer at the data than a simple score will know what they are looking at). All of a sudden, people are ranked by how well they did on the encounter based on what the guild values. This is something that could ONLY happen if Intrepid buimd the tracker in to the game themselves.
mcstackerson wrote: » Meters make players compare each other by one aspect of their class but classes aren't supposed to be balanced around one aspect.
JamesSunderland wrote: » it's simple blaming the very useful tool instead of the bad user.
JamesSunderland wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Meters make players compare each other by one aspect of their class but classes aren't supposed to be balanced around one aspect. I suppose you are saying that people will not take this in consideration? And will be indulced to error by the DPS meter? Leading people to ignore supporting/utility potential (offensive/defensive buffs/debuff, Heals, Barriers mobility to deal with mechanics and etc)? Wouldn't that in the end simple be their own fault in the way they approach the tool? Trying to get through the numbers in DPS meter the worth of the character for the encounter instead of simple its damage output? it's simple blaming the very useful tool instead of the bad user.
mcstackerson wrote: » I think the real issue is culture we have that sees it as a scoring system.
mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it. So, no ranked arena then? We can get rid of PvP seasons, as that is just a ranking system. Gear is just a ranking system based on your in game activities. While that last one may be a stretch, the first two are not. If the game has a ranking system, I fail to see how anyone can argue against other ranking systems. I never said there was anything wrong with scoreboards in general or encouraging players to do something The issue is how it's ranking players. As you know, dps isn't the sole decider of a classes effectiveness. Despite that, dps meters rank players by there dps which over emphasizes it. rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it. Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids. And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS. "but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy." First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers? Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong. And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD My point is you are making a score. Even if your class brings more to the table, if it's not reflected in the score, then the game is not acknowledging it. By giving a score to one aspect of the class, you are raising it above the other aspects that aren't being scored. DPS meters give you an exact number. You may know that classes bring other benefits but you can't quantify them. Since it can't be quantified, you can't compare it in the same ways as you can compare a dps number. Well that's because DPS meter only shows Damage Per Second? But as you may have read we want Combat Trackers that shows everything. Yes DPS meter is a part of that and people will find a way to get a meter on the screen during combat, but that's not really what we are after. And technically score isn't the problem? The real problem is how people treat the score, so removing the score won't fix the problem. What do you mean "then the game is not acknowledging it."? The game acknowledging everything? It's individual people that may not acknowledge it, which means that those people need to learn more about the game And, we can quantify what classes being to the table. Not in a simple format as a DPS meter but you can see it in the logs. Yes, how people treat the scores is the problem but no, removing the score does fix the issue it creates. Yes, people aren't acknowledging it because of how the game is scoring as well as any stigma associated with what is being scored. No, you can't quantify it's effectiveness by seeing it was used in the logs. Even if you could, it's effectiveness would be situational and couldn't be accurately calculated in a static test environment. Even if you could do that, there would still be stigmas attached to these different scores, making certain ones more desirable, kind of like kills and assists in some games. Just because they are both recorded, people generally rate kills higher than assists. As I said, this all comes down to perception. Just because you know how to parse the data, doesn't mean others do and however the game scores players, even if it's unintentional, is how it encourages them to play. By removing he score, you remove any incentive to pursue it. This doesn't remove any incentive to play your role well as the game has other inceptives to encourage you to succeed. By removing DPS meters you remove information not a problem. As we have established, DPS meter isn't the problem, but Toxic people are the problem. You can't state that the DPS meter is the problem then remove it when your statement is wrong. I also want to mention that the game already as a personal combat logger which shows your damage done and damage taken, and from that you can manually calculate your DPS. So by removing DPS meters (or combat trackers) people will just replace it with a less inaccurate number that they have calculated themselves. Not sure what you mean with game scoring? Have you ever seen a combat log? It shows you everything, so every effectives a class or build brings to the raid will be shown. If that is buffs to party members or debuffs to the boss, it will be shown. Yes it's hard to show that in a easy way as DPS but people will make guides, videos, forums, discord channels all dedicated to these things and all you have to do (if you want to) look up some guids and see what you want to do. Yes you can always go into a raid and test your own build and your own rotation (which i like to do) to see how it is. With a combat tracker you can then share your findings with other by showing them your rotation and back up your claims with facts. Most top end players knows how to parse data, casual players shouldn't care to much about combat trackers. And if you are a casual player and find you self in a group that demands DPS meters and curtain DPS score, then leave. That's it. Leave. Find a group/guild/players that have a similar mind set as you and play with them. It's not that hard. You also remove the scoreboard, which is the problem. I disagree that the issue is just "toxic" people. If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it. If you need help seeing what i'm talking about what i call it a score then lets look at this picture: This resembles a scoreboard. By displaying the information in this manner, it's encouraging players to focus on this number, which as we agreed, doesn't represent everything. Even if that pally should be fine with their damage output because of the utility they are bringing, this board is still putting them in 7th place. Naturally, people want to be in first as well as see bigger numbers, which is why it can be an issue to display the information in this manner. The combat log does not turn your damage info into a score and as you know, shows more than just your damage. This conversation has nothing to do with people feeling inadequate in groups. It's an issue with the game over emphasizing information, which as we discussed, doesn't represent the whole picture. The game doesn't over emphasizing anything. The game takes every value into account. That specific DPS meter over emphasizing dps because that's what it was made to do. Combat Trackers is made to show everything, and that's what we want. We don't want a simple DPS meter that only shows damage (or healing) we want (and will have) a combat tracker that is easy to understand and give us useful information we can use to improve and understand the game better. You are stuck in "DPS meters are bad", and yes they are bad if that's the only thing you are using. But that's not what we are talking about here. Yes the thread is called DPS meter mega thread, but that's because Steven doesn't know what s combat trackers is or what it does. Here is a standard log from a pug i did yesterdayhttps://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d1yv3wPkLBb8pzt7#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=summary You can see damage done, damage taken, healing, threat, buffs on players, buffs on boss, debuffs on players, debuffs on boss, interrupted, resources (mana and health gain and loss), dispels, casts and more. Yes it's a lot of information and it's easy to get stuck on DPS and what not, but that's not the fault of the information but the fault of you. And btw, you can also look at rankings. Where you can compare yourself too other players that play the same class and the same build. I don't personally care that much about it but it's always fun to compare and see how you stack up to the best of the best. Healing rankings are very weird though xD The issue isn't how you will use them. It's how it displays information and what it naturally encourages. That site is proving my point as it focuses a lot on dps, hps, and damage taken. As we said, those don't tell you everything. Despite all the information it records, it is still emphasizing and ranking the groups off these stats.
rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it. Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids. And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS. "but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy." First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers? Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong. And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD My point is you are making a score. Even if your class brings more to the table, if it's not reflected in the score, then the game is not acknowledging it. By giving a score to one aspect of the class, you are raising it above the other aspects that aren't being scored. DPS meters give you an exact number. You may know that classes bring other benefits but you can't quantify them. Since it can't be quantified, you can't compare it in the same ways as you can compare a dps number. Well that's because DPS meter only shows Damage Per Second? But as you may have read we want Combat Trackers that shows everything. Yes DPS meter is a part of that and people will find a way to get a meter on the screen during combat, but that's not really what we are after. And technically score isn't the problem? The real problem is how people treat the score, so removing the score won't fix the problem. What do you mean "then the game is not acknowledging it."? The game acknowledging everything? It's individual people that may not acknowledge it, which means that those people need to learn more about the game And, we can quantify what classes being to the table. Not in a simple format as a DPS meter but you can see it in the logs. Yes, how people treat the scores is the problem but no, removing the score does fix the issue it creates. Yes, people aren't acknowledging it because of how the game is scoring as well as any stigma associated with what is being scored. No, you can't quantify it's effectiveness by seeing it was used in the logs. Even if you could, it's effectiveness would be situational and couldn't be accurately calculated in a static test environment. Even if you could do that, there would still be stigmas attached to these different scores, making certain ones more desirable, kind of like kills and assists in some games. Just because they are both recorded, people generally rate kills higher than assists. As I said, this all comes down to perception. Just because you know how to parse the data, doesn't mean others do and however the game scores players, even if it's unintentional, is how it encourages them to play. By removing he score, you remove any incentive to pursue it. This doesn't remove any incentive to play your role well as the game has other inceptives to encourage you to succeed. By removing DPS meters you remove information not a problem. As we have established, DPS meter isn't the problem, but Toxic people are the problem. You can't state that the DPS meter is the problem then remove it when your statement is wrong. I also want to mention that the game already as a personal combat logger which shows your damage done and damage taken, and from that you can manually calculate your DPS. So by removing DPS meters (or combat trackers) people will just replace it with a less inaccurate number that they have calculated themselves. Not sure what you mean with game scoring? Have you ever seen a combat log? It shows you everything, so every effectives a class or build brings to the raid will be shown. If that is buffs to party members or debuffs to the boss, it will be shown. Yes it's hard to show that in a easy way as DPS but people will make guides, videos, forums, discord channels all dedicated to these things and all you have to do (if you want to) look up some guids and see what you want to do. Yes you can always go into a raid and test your own build and your own rotation (which i like to do) to see how it is. With a combat tracker you can then share your findings with other by showing them your rotation and back up your claims with facts. Most top end players knows how to parse data, casual players shouldn't care to much about combat trackers. And if you are a casual player and find you self in a group that demands DPS meters and curtain DPS score, then leave. That's it. Leave. Find a group/guild/players that have a similar mind set as you and play with them. It's not that hard. You also remove the scoreboard, which is the problem. I disagree that the issue is just "toxic" people. If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it. If you need help seeing what i'm talking about what i call it a score then lets look at this picture: This resembles a scoreboard. By displaying the information in this manner, it's encouraging players to focus on this number, which as we agreed, doesn't represent everything. Even if that pally should be fine with their damage output because of the utility they are bringing, this board is still putting them in 7th place. Naturally, people want to be in first as well as see bigger numbers, which is why it can be an issue to display the information in this manner. The combat log does not turn your damage info into a score and as you know, shows more than just your damage. This conversation has nothing to do with people feeling inadequate in groups. It's an issue with the game over emphasizing information, which as we discussed, doesn't represent the whole picture. The game doesn't over emphasizing anything. The game takes every value into account. That specific DPS meter over emphasizing dps because that's what it was made to do. Combat Trackers is made to show everything, and that's what we want. We don't want a simple DPS meter that only shows damage (or healing) we want (and will have) a combat tracker that is easy to understand and give us useful information we can use to improve and understand the game better. You are stuck in "DPS meters are bad", and yes they are bad if that's the only thing you are using. But that's not what we are talking about here. Yes the thread is called DPS meter mega thread, but that's because Steven doesn't know what s combat trackers is or what it does. Here is a standard log from a pug i did yesterdayhttps://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d1yv3wPkLBb8pzt7#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=summary You can see damage done, damage taken, healing, threat, buffs on players, buffs on boss, debuffs on players, debuffs on boss, interrupted, resources (mana and health gain and loss), dispels, casts and more. Yes it's a lot of information and it's easy to get stuck on DPS and what not, but that's not the fault of the information but the fault of you. And btw, you can also look at rankings. Where you can compare yourself too other players that play the same class and the same build. I don't personally care that much about it but it's always fun to compare and see how you stack up to the best of the best. Healing rankings are very weird though xD
mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it. Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids. And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS. "but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy." First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers? Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong. And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD My point is you are making a score. Even if your class brings more to the table, if it's not reflected in the score, then the game is not acknowledging it. By giving a score to one aspect of the class, you are raising it above the other aspects that aren't being scored. DPS meters give you an exact number. You may know that classes bring other benefits but you can't quantify them. Since it can't be quantified, you can't compare it in the same ways as you can compare a dps number. Well that's because DPS meter only shows Damage Per Second? But as you may have read we want Combat Trackers that shows everything. Yes DPS meter is a part of that and people will find a way to get a meter on the screen during combat, but that's not really what we are after. And technically score isn't the problem? The real problem is how people treat the score, so removing the score won't fix the problem. What do you mean "then the game is not acknowledging it."? The game acknowledging everything? It's individual people that may not acknowledge it, which means that those people need to learn more about the game And, we can quantify what classes being to the table. Not in a simple format as a DPS meter but you can see it in the logs. Yes, how people treat the scores is the problem but no, removing the score does fix the issue it creates. Yes, people aren't acknowledging it because of how the game is scoring as well as any stigma associated with what is being scored. No, you can't quantify it's effectiveness by seeing it was used in the logs. Even if you could, it's effectiveness would be situational and couldn't be accurately calculated in a static test environment. Even if you could do that, there would still be stigmas attached to these different scores, making certain ones more desirable, kind of like kills and assists in some games. Just because they are both recorded, people generally rate kills higher than assists. As I said, this all comes down to perception. Just because you know how to parse the data, doesn't mean others do and however the game scores players, even if it's unintentional, is how it encourages them to play. By removing he score, you remove any incentive to pursue it. This doesn't remove any incentive to play your role well as the game has other inceptives to encourage you to succeed. By removing DPS meters you remove information not a problem. As we have established, DPS meter isn't the problem, but Toxic people are the problem. You can't state that the DPS meter is the problem then remove it when your statement is wrong. I also want to mention that the game already as a personal combat logger which shows your damage done and damage taken, and from that you can manually calculate your DPS. So by removing DPS meters (or combat trackers) people will just replace it with a less inaccurate number that they have calculated themselves. Not sure what you mean with game scoring? Have you ever seen a combat log? It shows you everything, so every effectives a class or build brings to the raid will be shown. If that is buffs to party members or debuffs to the boss, it will be shown. Yes it's hard to show that in a easy way as DPS but people will make guides, videos, forums, discord channels all dedicated to these things and all you have to do (if you want to) look up some guids and see what you want to do. Yes you can always go into a raid and test your own build and your own rotation (which i like to do) to see how it is. With a combat tracker you can then share your findings with other by showing them your rotation and back up your claims with facts. Most top end players knows how to parse data, casual players shouldn't care to much about combat trackers. And if you are a casual player and find you self in a group that demands DPS meters and curtain DPS score, then leave. That's it. Leave. Find a group/guild/players that have a similar mind set as you and play with them. It's not that hard. You also remove the scoreboard, which is the problem. I disagree that the issue is just "toxic" people. If the game gives you a score for doing something then it's encouraging you to do it. If you need help seeing what i'm talking about what i call it a score then lets look at this picture: This resembles a scoreboard. By displaying the information in this manner, it's encouraging players to focus on this number, which as we agreed, doesn't represent everything. Even if that pally should be fine with their damage output because of the utility they are bringing, this board is still putting them in 7th place. Naturally, people want to be in first as well as see bigger numbers, which is why it can be an issue to display the information in this manner. The combat log does not turn your damage info into a score and as you know, shows more than just your damage. This conversation has nothing to do with people feeling inadequate in groups. It's an issue with the game over emphasizing information, which as we discussed, doesn't represent the whole picture.
rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it. Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids. And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS. "but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy." First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers? Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong. And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD My point is you are making a score. Even if your class brings more to the table, if it's not reflected in the score, then the game is not acknowledging it. By giving a score to one aspect of the class, you are raising it above the other aspects that aren't being scored. DPS meters give you an exact number. You may know that classes bring other benefits but you can't quantify them. Since it can't be quantified, you can't compare it in the same ways as you can compare a dps number. Well that's because DPS meter only shows Damage Per Second? But as you may have read we want Combat Trackers that shows everything. Yes DPS meter is a part of that and people will find a way to get a meter on the screen during combat, but that's not really what we are after. And technically score isn't the problem? The real problem is how people treat the score, so removing the score won't fix the problem. What do you mean "then the game is not acknowledging it."? The game acknowledging everything? It's individual people that may not acknowledge it, which means that those people need to learn more about the game And, we can quantify what classes being to the table. Not in a simple format as a DPS meter but you can see it in the logs. Yes, how people treat the scores is the problem but no, removing the score does fix the issue it creates. Yes, people aren't acknowledging it because of how the game is scoring as well as any stigma associated with what is being scored. No, you can't quantify it's effectiveness by seeing it was used in the logs. Even if you could, it's effectiveness would be situational and couldn't be accurately calculated in a static test environment. Even if you could do that, there would still be stigmas attached to these different scores, making certain ones more desirable, kind of like kills and assists in some games. Just because they are both recorded, people generally rate kills higher than assists. As I said, this all comes down to perception. Just because you know how to parse the data, doesn't mean others do and however the game scores players, even if it's unintentional, is how it encourages them to play. By removing he score, you remove any incentive to pursue it. This doesn't remove any incentive to play your role well as the game has other inceptives to encourage you to succeed. By removing DPS meters you remove information not a problem. As we have established, DPS meter isn't the problem, but Toxic people are the problem. You can't state that the DPS meter is the problem then remove it when your statement is wrong. I also want to mention that the game already as a personal combat logger which shows your damage done and damage taken, and from that you can manually calculate your DPS. So by removing DPS meters (or combat trackers) people will just replace it with a less inaccurate number that they have calculated themselves. Not sure what you mean with game scoring? Have you ever seen a combat log? It shows you everything, so every effectives a class or build brings to the raid will be shown. If that is buffs to party members or debuffs to the boss, it will be shown. Yes it's hard to show that in a easy way as DPS but people will make guides, videos, forums, discord channels all dedicated to these things and all you have to do (if you want to) look up some guids and see what you want to do. Yes you can always go into a raid and test your own build and your own rotation (which i like to do) to see how it is. With a combat tracker you can then share your findings with other by showing them your rotation and back up your claims with facts. Most top end players knows how to parse data, casual players shouldn't care to much about combat trackers. And if you are a casual player and find you self in a group that demands DPS meters and curtain DPS score, then leave. That's it. Leave. Find a group/guild/players that have a similar mind set as you and play with them. It's not that hard.
mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it. Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids. And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS. "but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy." First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers? Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong. And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD My point is you are making a score. Even if your class brings more to the table, if it's not reflected in the score, then the game is not acknowledging it. By giving a score to one aspect of the class, you are raising it above the other aspects that aren't being scored. DPS meters give you an exact number. You may know that classes bring other benefits but you can't quantify them. Since it can't be quantified, you can't compare it in the same ways as you can compare a dps number. Well that's because DPS meter only shows Damage Per Second? But as you may have read we want Combat Trackers that shows everything. Yes DPS meter is a part of that and people will find a way to get a meter on the screen during combat, but that's not really what we are after. And technically score isn't the problem? The real problem is how people treat the score, so removing the score won't fix the problem. What do you mean "then the game is not acknowledging it."? The game acknowledging everything? It's individual people that may not acknowledge it, which means that those people need to learn more about the game And, we can quantify what classes being to the table. Not in a simple format as a DPS meter but you can see it in the logs. Yes, how people treat the scores is the problem but no, removing the score does fix the issue it creates. Yes, people aren't acknowledging it because of how the game is scoring as well as any stigma associated with what is being scored. No, you can't quantify it's effectiveness by seeing it was used in the logs. Even if you could, it's effectiveness would be situational and couldn't be accurately calculated in a static test environment. Even if you could do that, there would still be stigmas attached to these different scores, making certain ones more desirable, kind of like kills and assists in some games. Just because they are both recorded, people generally rate kills higher than assists. As I said, this all comes down to perception. Just because you know how to parse the data, doesn't mean others do and however the game scores players, even if it's unintentional, is how it encourages them to play. By removing he score, you remove any incentive to pursue it. This doesn't remove any incentive to play your role well as the game has other inceptives to encourage you to succeed.
rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it. Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids. And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS. "but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy." First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers? Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong. And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD My point is you are making a score. Even if your class brings more to the table, if it's not reflected in the score, then the game is not acknowledging it. By giving a score to one aspect of the class, you are raising it above the other aspects that aren't being scored. DPS meters give you an exact number. You may know that classes bring other benefits but you can't quantify them. Since it can't be quantified, you can't compare it in the same ways as you can compare a dps number. Well that's because DPS meter only shows Damage Per Second? But as you may have read we want Combat Trackers that shows everything. Yes DPS meter is a part of that and people will find a way to get a meter on the screen during combat, but that's not really what we are after. And technically score isn't the problem? The real problem is how people treat the score, so removing the score won't fix the problem. What do you mean "then the game is not acknowledging it."? The game acknowledging everything? It's individual people that may not acknowledge it, which means that those people need to learn more about the game And, we can quantify what classes being to the table. Not in a simple format as a DPS meter but you can see it in the logs.
mcstackerson wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it. Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids. And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS. "but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy." First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers? Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong. And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD My point is you are making a score. Even if your class brings more to the table, if it's not reflected in the score, then the game is not acknowledging it. By giving a score to one aspect of the class, you are raising it above the other aspects that aren't being scored. DPS meters give you an exact number. You may know that classes bring other benefits but you can't quantify them. Since it can't be quantified, you can't compare it in the same ways as you can compare a dps number.
rikardp98 wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it. Yes having a DPS meter active during combat will make some people "blind", but these people won't last long in a guild. If you have a guild mate that only cares about doing maximum damage and stop doing mechanics and won't listen to calls because of that, any decent guild will kick that player. We had a warlock that didn't watch his threat meter (on a boss were threat is a big thing, hydross in TBC) and almost every pull he took threat. He blamed the tanks and hunters (misdirections) but the facts were that he started to DPS way to soon, popped his CDs before boss was in place, didn't use the threat reset warlocks has and there for pulled threat. We got the correct information and found out that he was talking bullshit because we had the logs with the facts. After that he no longer got invited to the raids. And people that uses combat trackers also knows that some classes you bring to a raid is not there to DPS but are there to give buffs and support, that is why you bring a shadow priest and a moonkin to raids in TBC. Stop assuming that we don't know that some classes have jobs other than doing DPS. "but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy." First of all, DPS isn't an exact number to evaluate a curtain build. Yes it can show it's potential but you also have to consider what that build brings to the raid, such as Buffs and debuffs. And how will you be able to determine a builds efficiency without exact numbers? Toxic people will always find a way to try and push other people to the ground. I think it's better to give people correct information about a curtain build or class to help you and others push back at toxic people, because usually toxic people are in the wrong. And if you remove DPS meter people are going to compare gear. So let's remove gear as well!! Well then people are going to compare how you have used you talents points, so let's remove them! Now people are going to compare what abilities you have on your bar, let's remove them..... The comparison argument is the worst argument of them all. Comparison and competition is a great way to evolve and try new things and finding new metas. Competition breeds excellence, or something like that xD
mcstackerson wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD90_ukT80 I think the reason is it creates a scoreboard for one aspect of a class. DPS is easy to quantify but other aspects of a class sometimes aren't. Combine this with the fact it's on a scoreboard, increasing your dps is seen as increasing your score. This causes people hyper focus on it when deciding the efficacy of a class and/or build. By removing them, you are taking away a precise way of measurement, as well as the scoreboard. Not only does it cause people to not emphasize it as much since the score is gone but without an exact number to assign to a build, you add some vagueness to a classes damage output which makes it easier to consider other aspects of a build when deciding it's efficacy. Yes, in the perfect world, people would not do this but if you give people an easy way to compare themselves, they are going to do it.
mcstackerson wrote: » Yes, I agree with the metrics you listed. I think anything that is role agnostics is a good metric to add. If they aren't planning on tracking those metrics then I agree they should.
Tragnar wrote: » Everything here literally relies on the existance of dps checks in encounters
rikardp98 wrote: » By removing DPS meters you remove information not a problem. As we have established, DPS meter isn't the problem, but Toxic people are the problem.
Tragnar wrote: » Argue about this all you want, but the fact is that if developers create dps checks then it is hypocritical for them to fight against dps meters
Dygz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » By removing DPS meters you remove information not a problem. As we have established, DPS meter isn't the problem, but Toxic people are the problem. You have not established that DPS meter isn't the problem. You have merely asserted that.
Dygz wrote: » LMFAO Not the best vouch-safe.
BlackBrony wrote: » If the fight itself doesn't revolve around DPS, then you could have a combat tracker without DPS information. Why not have heal checks then? Why need DPS tracker at all, if DPS does not matter, but what matter is positioning, strategy. That could be a nice compromise, you can see everything, except the damage you do. You can still theorycraft and min max all of your raids.
Noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » If the fight itself doesn't revolve around DPS, then you could have a combat tracker without DPS information. Why not have heal checks then? Why need DPS tracker at all, if DPS does not matter, but what matter is positioning, strategy. That could be a nice compromise, you can see everything, except the damage you do. You can still theorycraft and min max all of your raids. All information matters. I am unsure what argument it is that you are trying to get around with this. If it is the false argument of toxicity, this wouldn't impact it at all. If it is the false argument of player exclusion, this also wouldn't impact it at all.
