Yuyukoyay wrote: » The entire mindset behind dps meters defeats the purpose of the game which is make your own build and have fun. Classic WoW is actually a good example of why DPS meters aren't always right. Especially because it can't differentiate where the damage is coming from. Paladins did the most damage in the entire game by just buffing their entire raid, but the DPS meter doesn't count that added damage as their damage. Thus is the fatal flaw behind that kind of thing. There are also specs that theoretically do the most damage in the game, but no one ever took the time to learn how to do it. Mainly feral cat druids. Hardest build in classic to play by far and is so hard that not even the most hardcore in the game want to play it. Had someone ever learned the spec they could top the meters, but the problem with this is your goal has changed from having fun to topping a stupid meter. Doesn't even include how the majority of the community uses this crap irresponsibly most of the time. Like not doing mechanics just to do more damage, dying, and potentially wiping the entire raid because one asshole decided he wanted more damage in a stupid meter. There will be classes in this game that do nothing but buff other classes and is their main role. You will need these classes to have a good party. These classes will seem completely useless in a DPS meter. It just does not work in this kind of game and all it does is make the community more toxic. You give the dps meters too much credit over actual player skill to beat things without them. They were never needed, hurt the game, and will never be needed.
Yuyukoyay wrote: » You give the dps meters too much credit over actual player skill to beat things without them. They were never needed, hurt the game, and will never be needed.
Dygz wrote: » With augments, you don't need a DPS meter to tell you who is ignoring mechanics. Pushing to save time is a key aspect of toxicity in MMORPGs.
Noaani wrote: » Dygz wrote: » With augments, you don't need a DPS meter to tell you who is ignoring mechanics. Pushing to save time is a key aspect of toxicity in MMORPGs. This whole thing makes no sense - as per usual. How do you know who is ignoring mechanics? More importantly, how do you know the impact of them ignoring mechanics? Because some mechanics can be ignored by some characters some of the time, and sometimes that is needed in order to successfully defeat an encounter. Without a combat tracker, how do you know who should and who shouldn't be ignoring which mechanics, and which mechanics everyone should be paying attention to, which no one should pay attention to, how often those that we should pay attention to need to be properly dealt with vs how often they can be ignored and then how specifically do we have all of that information broken down in a per-character basis? Second, what the hell do augments have to do with any of this? Literally nothing. Pushing to save time is only a cause of toxicity if most people do not wish to push for time. If everyone present bar one wishes to push for time, then it is NOT pushing for time that causes that toxicity. This is why people that wish to play the game in a top end manner should not mix with those that do not wish to do so, and those that wish to not push themselves need to understand that this means not running content that requires one to push oneself. --- The key aspect you are talking about above that causes toxicity is not pushing for time, it is friction among players. To you, someone that never wants to push them self, this means that when you are grouped with people that do wish to push, toxicity ensues. You see this as the push being the cause of toxicity, when in fact it is the friction between those wishing to push and those not willing to push. If those wishing to push for time were playing only with others that are likeminded, there is no toxicity to be had - and as such the statement that pushing for time causes toxicity is as false as the statement that combat trackers cause toxicity. Toxicity is caused by friction between players wanting to do things differently, and not understanding when they need to acquiesce to the other perspective. Basically, toxicity is caused by players that refuse to compromise.
Birthday wrote: » If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time.
So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic.
You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising.
Noaani wrote: » Birthday wrote: » If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time. A combat tracker will not do this. Players will do this regardless. Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions. They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have. If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things. Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that. So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic. That isn't really how it all works. If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish. Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve. In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you. The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that. In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why. You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising. People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic. If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you. This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic). The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can.
Birthday wrote: » When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter.
"Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows: Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay. Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress. Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis." Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out. If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc.
Birthday wrote: » DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
Birthday wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Birthday wrote: » If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time. A combat tracker will not do this. Players will do this regardless. Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions. They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have. If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things. Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that. So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic. That isn't really how it all works. If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish. Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve. In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you. The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that. In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why. You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising. People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic. If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you. This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic). The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can. When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters. The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community. If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality. Lets take for example this web guide for WoW Raids https://www.icy-veins.com/tbc-classic/raid-composition-guide It says at one point: "Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows: Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay. Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress. Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis." Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out. If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc. As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community. DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking.
rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Birthday wrote: » If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time. A combat tracker will not do this. Players will do this regardless. Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions. They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have. If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things. Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that. So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic. That isn't really how it all works. If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish. Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve. In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you. The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that. In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why. You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising. People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic. If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you. This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic). The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can. When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters. The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community. If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality. Lets take for example this web guide for WoW Raids https://www.icy-veins.com/tbc-classic/raid-composition-guide It says at one point: "Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows: Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay. Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress. Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis." Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out. If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc. As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community. DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking. It also say "In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation). This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content." It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide. And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first??
Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Birthday wrote: » If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time. A combat tracker will not do this. Players will do this regardless. Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions. They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have. If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things. Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that. So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic. That isn't really how it all works. If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish. Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve. In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you. The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that. In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why. You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising. People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic. If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you. This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic). The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can. When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters. The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community. If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality. Lets take for example this web guide for WoW Raids https://www.icy-veins.com/tbc-classic/raid-composition-guide It says at one point: "Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows: Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay. Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress. Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis." Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out. If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc. As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community. DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking. It also say "In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation). This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content." It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide. And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first?? Thanks for proving my point. When DPS meters and combat trackers aren't allowed people still push for world first and have fun in that. So there is no need for DPS meters and combat trackers even for those players who want to push themselves. So we don't need DPS meters and combat trackers at all. Adding DPS meters and combat trackers or not adding is irrelevant even when pursing goals such as pushing times. Players will do it anyway. So we don't need them to push for time or to have fun. This means they are just tools that when added mostly just contribute to being used to create toxicity in a community.
rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Birthday wrote: » If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time. A combat tracker will not do this. Players will do this regardless. Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions. They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have. If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things. Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that. So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic. That isn't really how it all works. If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish. Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve. In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you. The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that. In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why. You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising. People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic. If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you. This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic). The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can. When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters. The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community. If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality. Lets take for example this web guide for WoW Raids https://www.icy-veins.com/tbc-classic/raid-composition-guide It says at one point: "Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows: Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay. Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress. Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis." Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out. If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc. As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community. DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking. It also say "In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation). This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content." It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide. And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first?? Thanks for proving my point. When DPS meters and combat trackers aren't allowed people still push for world first and have fun in that. So there is no need for DPS meters and combat trackers even for those players who want to push themselves. So we don't need DPS meters and combat trackers at all. Adding DPS meters and combat trackers or not adding is irrelevant even when pursing goals such as pushing times. Players will do it anyway. So we don't need them to push for time or to have fun. This means they are just tools that when added mostly just contribute to being used to create toxicity in a community. FF14 also have combat trackers, the developers knows it but don't really care. Just as long player doesn't get toxic about them, PLAYERS, not DPS meter, if players get toxic. The reason I mentioned FF14 is because people will always push times and try to be efficient, not matter if the games support combat trackers or not. They will just get a third party software to help them. That is all fine and good, but that means you need to know about this third party software. Having it in game and officially support will help everyone that tried to push them self or just want to test something new
Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Birthday wrote: » If DPS meters get allowed or worse get added officially to the game by Intrepid this will push forward to the whole AoC community the incentive that the game is created and meant to push you to push for time. A combat tracker will not do this. Players will do this regardless. Players in Ashes will want to rush to the level cap, which means rushing a node to metropolis. They will want to rush to killing the hardest mobs, and being the highest in their professions. They won't want to rush to do this because combat trackers told them - they will want to rush to do this because when they get these things done, they have an advantage over those that have not done these things, and may well even be able to prevent some people from doing these things for a time, extending that advantage they have. If the goal is to stop people rushing things, then the simple solution to it - the only solution to it - is to not reward anything for when players do those things. Doesn't sound like a fun or successful game if you start doing that. So it's really about Steven and the community's choice what we all want to define as toxic. If we choose to have DPS meters then all who don't measure up appropriately to the DPS meter is toxic. If we choose to not have DPS meters then all who try to force people to measure up to DPS meters will be considered toxic. That isn't really how it all works. If I have a combat tracker for Ashes (which I already do - I've had it working for a while), and I am in a group with you and you do not measure up to the level of others of your class and role in the group, that doesn't make either of us toxic. All it means is that I am now in a position to assist you if I wish, and you are in a position to be able to improve, if you wish. Where toxicity happens is if either I chose to not assist you and instead just boot you (not my kind of thing), or I offer assistance to help you improve, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have room to improve. In both cases, the only time toxicity becomes real is because of a players decision - I can decide to be toxic, and so can you. The combat tracker is an innocent bystander in all of that. In fact, the combat tracker is so innocent in this scenario, that the whole thing is often able to be played out almost exactly the same without a combat tracker even being present - the difference being it is much harder for me to offer you that assistance. I will be able to see that you are not performing as you should, but I will not be able to see how or why. You make it sound like people who don't want to use a DPS meter are bad for not compromising. People who do not wish to push themselves as far a they can go, and who also group up with people who do want to push the group as far as it can go are indeed toxic. If you do not wish to push yourself - with or without a combat tracker - have at it. I do not care, you do you. However, if you then opt to join a group that is about efficiency, then it is on you to fit in to that group, not to ask that group to fit to you. This same principle applies in reverse, so don't go thinking I am picking on people not wanting to play at the top end. I, as someone that likes to be efficient in game, would not join a group of people that are more casual and unconcerned about those things and then expect them to play at the same efficiency level that I like to play at. If I were to do that, then my actions absolutely could be considered toxic (I would consider that toxic). The compromise isn't about "you have to use a combat tracker", the compromise is that you have to fit in to the group or raid that you are in, and if you are unable to fit in to it, you should have the good graces to excuse yourself as early as you can. When the creators of a game add a DPS meter it sets the norm for everyone to use a DPS meter. When creators of a game ban DPS meters it sets a norm for everyone not to use DPS meters. The norm then forms the community because the players have to live up to the norm in order to be successfully part of the community. If a DPS meter is added that becomes the norm for the whole community and every player will have to use it to fit in the community. This is bad because DPS meter and combat trackers a bad norm to follow because they ignore a lot of other mechanics and thus constrict player creativity and individuality. Lets take for example this web guide for WoW Raids https://www.icy-veins.com/tbc-classic/raid-composition-guide It says at one point: "Starting with the role setup, we want to have around 30 main raiders, split as follows: Between 2 and 6 Tanks, for subbing and small-group gameplay. Between 5 and 8 Healers, for tougher fights during progress. Between 14 and 18 DPS, which will fill the raid once tanks and healers are decided on a fight-by-fight basis." Why should that be the case? That is only the case thanks to DPS meters and combat trackers because thanks to these tools its easy to calculate that you need X amount of DPS and Y amount of healing to kill a boss and sustain his damage before the Raid's mana runs out. If there were no DPS meters and Combat trackers then thinking wouldn't be narrowed like this. Instead players could start experimenting to use mechanics to stun, slow, silence, zone, kite a boss etc. As it is right now it's much more likely that a raid leader will turn down a player with a novel approach like for example using mechanics to minimize the Boss' dps because it's not the norm. The norm is to have a party that has enough DPS and Healing and the majority of players will be doubtful and afraid to stray away from this approach because it's the norm set by the game's norms and it's community. DPS meters and combat trackers just narrow down thinking. Yes they can be helpful tools but sadly they also narrow down thinking. It also say "In TBC, most classes and specializations have unique buffs and debuffs that can help their party (Bloodlust IconBloodlust) or even the whole raid (Blessing of Salvation IconBlessing of Salvation). This means that, besides individual class balance, you also need to take into account the buffs and debuffs each specialization brings in order to have a solid composition for all kinds of group content." It also give you options, 5-8 healers, 14-18 DPS. It doesn't state that you need exactly 5 healers. It's up to you and your group to decide. And, just because the game doesn't officially support DPS meter or combat trackers doesn't mean the community isn't hardcore and want to push times and be efficient. Just took att ff14. DPS meter and combat trackers aren't allowed, but some how people still push for world first?? Thanks for proving my point. When DPS meters and combat trackers aren't allowed people still push for world first and have fun in that. So there is no need for DPS meters and combat trackers even for those players who want to push themselves. So we don't need DPS meters and combat trackers at all. Adding DPS meters and combat trackers or not adding is irrelevant even when pursing goals such as pushing times. Players will do it anyway. So we don't need them to push for time or to have fun. This means they are just tools that when added mostly just contribute to being used to create toxicity in a community. FF14 also have combat trackers, the developers knows it but don't really care. Just as long player doesn't get toxic about them, PLAYERS, not DPS meter, if players get toxic. The reason I mentioned FF14 is because people will always push times and try to be efficient, not matter if the games support combat trackers or not. They will just get a third party software to help them. That is all fine and good, but that means you need to know about this third party software. Having it in game and officially support will help everyone that tried to push them self or just want to test something new Thanks again for proving my point. You just said that by banning DPS meters and combat trackers the game has reduced toxicity thanks to the fact that they are banned and developers can monitor for DPS meter and combat trackers and intervene when toxicity occurs. So this means that Intrepid should ban DPS meters and Combat trackers because this will give a best of both of worlds type of result - Players who want them to experiment can still use them but they have to be third party and the players have to keep conversations that include these tools civil and quiet in order to avoid detection by developers. So this means that by banning DPS meters and combat trackers makes it so that those tools can't be used by players to create toxicity and at the same time it's still possible for these tools to be used by honest and ethical players who want to only use them as a tool to experiment. Best of both worlds.
Birthday wrote: » and at the same time it's still possible for these tools to be used by honest and ethical players who want to only use them as a tool to experiment.
