DPS Meter Megathread

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Tragnar

imagine if the already confirmed combat log also had confirmed advanced filters, search and position tracking with a replay option to even go step by step (and choosing steps)

imo this thread would have been long dead

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

imagine if the already confirmed combat log also had confirmed advanced filters, search and position tracking with a replay option to even go step by step (and choosing steps)

imo this thread would have been long dead

Add some graphs on to that, along with it being a log for your group or raid, and you have a deal!

rikardp98

Tragnar wrote: »

imagine if the already confirmed combat log also had confirmed advanced filters, search and position tracking with a replay option to even go step by step (and choosing steps)

imo this thread would have been long dead

I knew about the personal combat log, but thought it was one of those standard scrolling text once.

Can you link to this confirmed advanced combat tracker?

rikardp98

Tragnar wrote: »

imagine if the already confirmed combat log also had confirmed advanced filters, search and position tracking with a replay option to even go step by step (and choosing steps)

imo this thread would have been long dead

"We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves"

If this is what you mean then it doesn't sound that great. Combat information in your chest window will be very very very limited.

Birthday

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Birthday may I ask you what experience you have with playing a MMO?

rikardp98 wrote: »

I ask again, what experience have you had with MMOs that gave you this view on combat trackers?

Of what relevance is this? Why do you ask again when you said "If I may ask"? If I didn't answer it's obviously because I didn't want to because I know that when I answer my answer will be used for a toxic reply.

I find it strange that FF14 monitors for toxicity and bans players merely for toxicity especially toxicity which is borderline "helping" because the player states that he isn't being toxic he is merely "helping" the others to learn to play the game by referring to the ingame DPS meter. I haven't played FF14 but it sounds like they took a very hard rule approach to toxicity. Seems they ban toxic people even when they have excuses to be toxic which is good but that's a very hard crack down approach and I haven't experienced any company be like this before. If its possible - go ahead and do that but I doubt it's possible because then the guy being toxic can say "I am not toxic. He is toxic for failing to use the builtin DPS meter in the game. He is forcing me to play his way. He is toxic!". Then they can't ban anyone and the player who doesn't want to use a DPS meter but merely wants to enjoy the MMORPG is excluded and left to play alone in a massively online multiplayer game.

Banning dps meters and combat trackers removes the excuse of toxic people I am talking about thus it helps bring down the toxicity while also allowing the players who really want to use a DPS meter or combat tracker to do so but to do it quietly and civilly.

I've played 3 years Guild wars series, 8 years WoW, 6 months of BDO and some other MMOs who failed to capture my interest for longer than a month.

rikardp98

Birthday wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Birthday may I ask you what experience you have with playing a MMO?

rikardp98 wrote: »

I ask again, what experience have you had with MMOs that gave you this view on combat trackers?

Of what relevance is this? Why do you ask again when you said "If I may ask"? If I didn't answer it's obviously because I didn't want to because I know that when I answer my answer will be used for a toxic reply.

I find it strange that FF14 monitors for toxicity and bans players merely for toxicity especially toxicity which is borderline "helping" because the player states that he isn't being toxic he is merely "helping" the others to learn to play the game by referring to the ingame DPS meter. I haven't played FF14 but it sounds like they took a very hard rule approach to toxicity. Seems they ban toxic people even when they have excuses to be toxic which is good but that's a very hard crack down approach and I haven't experienced any company be like this before. If its possible - go ahead and do that but I doubt it's possible because then the guy being toxic can say "I am not toxic. He is toxic for failing to use the builtin DPS meter in the game. He is forcing me to play his way. He is toxic!". Then they can't ban anyone and the player who doesn't want to use a DPS meter but merely wants to enjoy the MMORPG is excluded and left to play alone in a massively online multiplayer game.

Banning dps meters and combat trackers removes the excuse of toxic people I am talking about thus it helps bring down the toxicity while also allowing the players who really want to use a DPS meter or combat tracker to do so but to do it quietly and civilly.

I've played 3 years Guild wars series, 8 years WoW, 6 months of BDO and some other MMOs who failed to capture my interest for longer than a month.

Okay so you have played MMOs throughout the years, and what experience and in what situation have you had a bad experience with combat trackers?

I'm not going to answer with a toxic answer, I'm just trying to understand were you are coming from since I have never experience combat trackers to be toxic.

Of you join a Pug via the group finder and a random player complains about your DPS then he is toxic. If you join a guild that have standards like prepare for raid by getting consumables and enchants or similar and you are not doing that, then you are toxic and you will most likely get kick from the guild.

It's up to the developers to keep chat clean and ban people flaming other players based on performance in a random group doing a simple dungeon or raid.

And it's up to the guild leaders to make sure guild members follow the guild rules so everyone feel welcome and that their time isn't wasted.

Birthday wrote: »

Then they can't ban anyone and the player who doesn't want to use a DPS meter but merely wants to enjoy the MMORPG is excluded and left to play alone in a massively online multiplayer game.

Do you know what a combat tracker does? You don't automatically get better because you have a DPS meter on the screen. Just because you don't open up the in-game combat log doesn't mean you are worse. And you will not be excluded, I know many guilds I'm classic wow tbc that are very very casual and don't care about DPS. They play im their own pace and have a very very good time. It all comes down you you finding your place in a massive multiplayer game. You don't need to focus on the hardcore aspect of the game to fit in, you will find many casual players that just like to enjoy the game.

Birthday wrote: »

Banning dps meters and combat trackers removes the excuse of toxic people I am talking about thus it helps bring down the toxicity while also allowing the players who really want to use a DPS meter or combat tracker to do so but to do it quietly and civilly.

Banning DPS meter and combat trackers won't remove toxic players, they will always find a way to complain (like not knowing mechanics when doing an old boss for tbe the first time). It's up to you to ignore them and find a new group with like-minded people that makes you enjoy the game.

rikardp98

And finding a group or a guild in AoC will be quite easy. It's a very social game and you will probably find a guild that fits you pretty easy. You can even find guilds now and start to get to know your future guildies

Birthday

Rikardp98 makes valid points and has good reasoning.

Although there wont be a dungeon finder in AoC as far as I know.

Still I like Rikardp98's reasoning and after reading it I am now truly neutral as to the question if DPS meters/combat trackers should be added or not.

Anything is fine.

Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

It's up to you to ignore them and find a new group with like-minded people that makes you enjoy the game.

Yeah, this is what I have been saying for a while.

Toxicity comes from playing with people that are not likeminded.

There is the caveat with that, in that you can play with these people just fine if you compromise and fit in as best you can with how the people you are choosing to play with want to play, but it is players trying to play with others that are not likeminded that cause issues.

rikardp98

Birthday wrote: »

Rikardp98 makes valid points and has good reasoning.

Although there wont be a dungeon finder in AoC as far as I know.

Still I like Rikardp98's reasoning and after reading it I am now truly neutral as to the question if DPS meters/combat trackers should be added or not.

Anything is fine.

I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic and toxic comment or not xD

But I take what I can get ☺️

Dygz

DPS meter isn't just about DPS.
But, you don't need a combat tracker to tell you who is synergizing their augments and skills with other members in the party and who is doing nothing.

Pushing for speed is very much a key aspect of the toxicity of Most Efficient Tactics Available.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Pushing for speed is very much a key aspect of the toxicity of Most Efficient Tactics Available.

But combat trackers aren't what cause people to push for speed, nor what forms a games meta. Both of these exist without combat trackers.

While you may not need a combat tracker to tell you who is and isn't synergizing, you DO need one to tell you what the value of that synergy is. It may well be that it isn't worth putting any time or thought in to, in which case us players can then pass this on to Intrepid who can then fix it.

This kind of thing is exactly what combat trackers are used to identify and fix - it is too complex for developers to absolutely get right first time, or for players to be able to understand without trackers.

Dygz

You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.

Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.

Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.

A desire to want the developers to make a balanced (aka, absolutely right) combat system is not a toxic concept.

Nor is a desire to assist them in achieving that.

Birthday

rikardp98 wrote: »

Birthday wrote: »

Rikardp98 makes valid points and has good reasoning.

Although there wont be a dungeon finder in AoC as far as I know.

Still I like Rikardp98's reasoning and after reading it I am now truly neutral as to the question if DPS meters/combat trackers should be added or not.

Anything is fine.

I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic and toxic comment or not xD

But I take what I can get ☺️

no sarcasm

Birthday

Dygz wrote: »

You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.

Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.

Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.

A desire to want the developers to make a balanced (aka, absolutely right) combat system is not a toxic concept.

Nor is a desire to assist them in achieving that.

Dygz has a very interesting take on this that I didn't consider at first. I have a masters in Psychology which you don't need to easily check on the web if what I am about to say is true.

Dygz or at least what I am extracting from what he is saying is opening up a very interesting side to all of this and that is - Certain gaming tools like DPS meters and combat trackers can be psychologically harmful.

I'd wager he is right. It's theoretically possible that tools like DPS meters and combat trackers are harmful to perfectionists or people suffering from OCDs because these types of tools are used to optimize or in other words perfect. Perfectionists and OCD gets worse when the person suffering from it gives into it. Tools like DPS meter and combat trackers can be very tantalizing to perfectionists and OCD suffering people. Because they are tantalizing it'll be hard for these people to keep away from them. Thus it's likely they'll use them and it'll worsen their conditions. And the possible peer pressure from people inside the game will add to the chance that these people will start using the meters and trackers.

Including something like this that can be harmful to people inside your game can be troublesome legally down the line I guess due to ethical concerns that might arise after proper experimentation in labs and confirmation of theory.

As of now no such ethical concerns are legislated. So right now it's legally okay to add them. But if Intrepid are playing the long-ball and expect their game to be around after 50 years they might want to play it safe and ban these meters.

Although the chance of such legislation coming this decade and affecting the gaming sphere is very low. Also even if it does happen Intrepid might be able to protect AoC from legal problems by just adding a warning inside their game similar to the one in tobacco. Don't know if this might push the age label though. Might make the game 18+ or something just because of proven harmful effects of things inside the game. Which might be bad for sales, might not.

Anyway bottom-line Dygz is right that these tools have a possible toxic side and can be part of a toxic concept. They are not entirely innocent even if they were invented with the entirely innocent reason for experimentation.

Of course also in the end it's just a tool. No one can say tools are evil/harmful/toxic. It can't even be said about guns. Guns are tools. They aren't inherently evil. They can be used in self-defense. That would make them life-saving just as much as life-taking. It all depends on their regulation, safety procedures for use, legislation and above all the hands that use them.

rikardp98

Birthday wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.

Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You don't need a combat tracker to tell you which synergies are helpful and which are not.
Devs don't have to " absolutely get it right" the first time.
There no such thing as "absolutely get it right" in the first place. That's a toxic concept.

Again, strategies don't have to be perfect, they just need to be successful.

A desire to want the developers to make a balanced (aka, absolutely right) combat system is not a toxic concept.

Nor is a desire to assist them in achieving that.

Dygz has a very interesting take on this that I didn't consider at first. I have a masters in Psychology which you don't need to easily check on the web if what I am about to say is true.

Dygz or at least what I am extracting from what he is saying is opening up a very interesting side to all of this and that is - Certain gaming tools like DPS meters and combat trackers can be psychologically harmful.

I'd wager he is right. It's theoretically possible that tools like DPS meters and combat trackers are harmful to perfectionists or people suffering from OCDs because these types of tools are used to optimize or in other words perfect. Perfectionists and OCD gets worse when the person suffering from it gives into it. Tools like DPS meter and combat trackers can be very tantalizing to perfectionists and OCD suffering people. Because they are tantalizing it'll be hard for these people to keep away from them. Thus it's likely they'll use them and it'll worsen their conditions. And the possible peer pressure from people inside the game will add to the chance that these people will start using the meters and trackers.

Including something like this that can be harmful to people inside your game can be troublesome legally down the line I guess due to ethical concerns that might arise after proper experimentation in labs and confirmation of theory.

As of now no such ethical concerns are legislated. So right now it's legally okay to add them. But if Intrepid are playing the long-ball and expect their game to be around after 50 years they might want to play it safe and ban these meters.

Although the chance of such legislation coming this decade and affecting the gaming sphere is very low. Also even if it does happen Intrepid might be able to protect AoC from legal problems by just adding a warning inside their game similar to the one in tobacco. Don't know if this might push the age label though. Might make the game 18+ or something just because of proven harmful effects of things inside the game. Which might be bad for sales, might not.

Anyway bottom-line Dygz is right that these tools have a possible toxic side and can be part of a toxic concept. They are not entirely innocent even if they were invented with the entirely innocent reason for experimentation.

Of course also in the end it's just a tool. No one can say tools are evil/harmful/toxic. It can't even be said about guns. Guns are tools. They aren't inherently evil. They can be used in self-defense. That would make them life-saving just as much as life-taking. It all depends on their regulation, safety procedures for use, legislation and above all the hands that use them.

A better comparison is combat trackers are like scientific facts you get from laborations and experiments. You can use what you learn to get a deeper understanding of the subject you are looking in to.

Some people don't care about scientific facts and ten to lean towards other beliefs. You have religious people, you have free spirited people like hippies, and much more. People live the way they want to live and that's the way it should be. And people play a game like they want ro play it and that's the way it should be.

Combat Track users are similar to scientist in that sense, people that strive for information and improvement based in facts.

rikardp98

I don't want to comment to much on people that have severe OCD or perfectionists, but that's a individual problem with that person, and it's hard to design a game based on individual problems. I do believe that games should have possible individual problems in mind, like OCD or even people with handicaps, MMOs should be for everyone so having this in mind is a good thing.

A DPS meter shouldn't be a standard part of the UI, and the combat tracker should be hidden behind a keybind.

Combat Trackers doesn't have a toxic side since it's completely neutral to any opinion, it only give facts and only facts.

Dygz

Combat trackers are tools; not facts.
Combat trackers are not necessary tools.
Combat trackers also are not tools that the game should provide. YoshiP has this view. Steven has this view.
It's a game design philosophy.

If the game includes DPS meters, we can expect the devs to design the game such that DPS meters will be necessary. As necessary as tools like health and mana bars.
If DPS meters are not included, we can expect that DPS meters will not be necessary. And the data they provide also will not be necessary data.

Numerical values on health bars are a great tool.
Doesn't mean they are intrinsically necessary.
Steven plans for Ashes to not have numerical values on health bars.
Which can be fine - as long as the cues for health status can be understood well enough for players to defeat challenges.

Same is true for DPS meters.
The toxicity comes from expecting everyone to rely on DPS meters.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

Combat trackers are tools; not facts.
Combat trackers are not necessary tools.
Combat trackers also are not tools that the game should provide. YoshiP has this view. Steven has this view.
It's a game design philosophy.

If the game includes DPS meters, we can expect the devs to design the game such that DPS meters will be necessary. As necessary as tools like health and mana bars.
If DPS meters are not included, we can expect that DPS meters will not be necessary. And the data they provide also will not be necessary data.

Numerical values on health bars are a great tool.
Doesn't mean they are intrinsically necessary.
Steven plans for Ashes to not have numerical values on health bars.
Which can be fine - as long as the cues for health status can be understood well enough for players to defeat challenges.

Same is true for DPS meters.
The toxicity comes from expecting everyone to rely on DPS meters.

I'm sorry, combat trackers are tools that outputs facts. Similar to software that scientist use to evaluate data points.

You also make some bold statements about DPS meter being necessary to kill a boss if they exist, and that toxicity comes from everyone will be except to use the DPS meters. Both of these statements is false, or do not aline with my experience.

If combat trackers is implemented hardcore players will except other hardcore players to use it to some extent. No one will except the use of combat trackers from casual players.

Toxicity comes from clash of two people with different views, such as hardcore and casual player mind set. That doesn't mean that hardcore players and casual player can't play with each other, they very much can, but they need to accept were they stand and what they except from each other.

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