DPS Meter Megathread

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Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

I'm sorry, combat trackers are tools that outputs facts. Similar to software that scientist use to evaluate data points.

You also make some bold statements about DPS meter being necessary to kill a boss if they exist, and that toxicity comes from everyone will be except to use the DPS meters. Both of these statements is false, or do not aline with my experience.

If combat trackers is implemented hardcore players will except other hardcore players to use it to some extent. No one will except the use of combat trackers from casual players.

Toxicity comes from clash of two people with different views, such as hardcore and casual player mind set. That doesn't mean that hardcore players and casual player can't play with each other, they very much can, but they need to accept were they stand and what they except from each other.

I'm not sure you accurately reflected what I wrote.
Maybe if you fixed the typos...

People in general will expect everyone to use the DPS meters - because the challenges will be designed for a reliance on the DPS meters and everyone will have easy access to them because the tools will be supplied by the game.
Steven is a hardcore player and that's not the way Steven wants the game to be played.

So, it's not just hardcore v casual. It's people who want to rely on DPS meters v people who don't want to rely on DPS meters.

I've never experienced being asked if I'm a hardcore or casual player in-game.
I've never experienced others being asked whether they are casual players in-game.
I've also never seen a casual player flag.
People typically just play and expect there won't be playstyle conflicts - until the conflicts arise.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

I'm sorry, combat trackers are tools that outputs facts. Similar to software that scientist use to evaluate data points.

You also make some bold statements about DPS meter being necessary to kill a boss if they exist, and that toxicity comes from everyone will be except to use the DPS meters. Both of these statements is false, or do not aline with my experience.

If combat trackers is implemented hardcore players will except other hardcore players to use it to some extent. No one will except the use of combat trackers from casual players.

Toxicity comes from clash of two people with different views, such as hardcore and casual player mind set. That doesn't mean that hardcore players and casual player can't play with each other, they very much can, but they need to accept were they stand and what they except from each other.

I'm not sure you accurately reflected what I wrote.
Maybe if you fixed the typos...

People in general will expect everyone to use the DPS meters - because the challenges will be designed for a reliance on the DPS meters and everyone will have easy access to them because the tools will be supplied by the game.
Steven is a hardcore player and that's not the way Steven wants the game to be played.

So, it's not just hardcore v casual. It's people who want to rely on DPS meters v people who don't want to rely on DPS meters.

I've never experienced being asked if I'm a hardcore or casual player in-game.
I've never experienced others being asked whether they are casual players in-game.
I've also never seen a casual player flag.
People typically just play and expect there won't be playstyle conflicts - until the conflicts arise.

Sorry for typos, in the middle of a pug raid xD

Birthday

Dygz wrote: »

Combat trackers are tools; not facts.
Combat trackers are not necessary tools.
Combat trackers also are not tools that the game should provide. YoshiP has this view. Steven has this view.
It's a game design philosophy.

If the game includes DPS meters, we can expect the devs to design the game such that DPS meters will be necessary. As necessary as tools like health and mana bars.
If DPS meters are not included, we can expect that DPS meters will not be necessary. And the data they provide also will not be necessary data.

Numerical values on health bars are a great tool.
Doesn't mean they are intrinsically necessary.
Steven plans for Ashes to not have numerical values on health bars.
Which can be fine - as long as the cues for health status can be understood well enough for players to defeat challenges.

Same is true for DPS meters.
The toxicity comes from expecting everyone to rely on DPS meters.

I didn't know Steven plans on not having numerical values for Ashes' health bars and other stuff. That's quite intrepid(pun intended)! haha

This actually intrigues me to learn more about this. I'll go ahead and put a question concerning this in the thread for questions for next stream.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

I'm sorry, combat trackers are tools that outputs facts. Similar to software that scientist use to evaluate data points.

You also make some bold statements about DPS meter being necessary to kill a boss if they exist, and that toxicity comes from everyone will be except to use the DPS meters. Both of these statements is false, or do not aline with my experience.

If combat trackers is implemented hardcore players will except other hardcore players to use it to some extent. No one will except the use of combat trackers from casual players.

Toxicity comes from clash of two people with different views, such as hardcore and casual player mind set. That doesn't mean that hardcore players and casual player can't play with each other, they very much can, but they need to accept were they stand and what they except from each other.

I'm not sure you accurately reflected what I wrote.
Maybe if you fixed the typos...

People in general will expect everyone to use the DPS meters - because the challenges will be designed for a reliance on the DPS meters and everyone will have easy access to them because the tools will be supplied by the game.
Steven is a hardcore player and that's not the way Steven wants the game to be played.

So, it's not just hardcore v casual. It's people who want to rely on DPS meters v people who don't want to rely on DPS meters.

I've never experienced being asked if I'm a hardcore or casual player in-game.
I've never experienced others being asked whether they are casual players in-game.
I've also never seen a casual player flag.
People typically just play and expect there won't be playstyle conflicts - until the conflicts arise.

You again assume that the developers will make encounters with the DPS meter in mind, that's not good encounter design if you ask me.

And it's not up to other people to ask you what you identify as, that's up to you. So no one will ask you, they will assume you know what you are after in the game.

Noaani

Birthday wrote: »

I have a masters in Psychology which you don't need to easily check on the web if what I am about to say is true.

Figures - a discipline which facts aren't a consideration.

The entirety of your post was incorrect. Again.

If what you are saying were true, there would have been an uprising at some point in the last 20 years of people with OCD complaining about trackers.

If there were to be legislation against any aspect of Ashes, it would be against the ability to gamble in game currency with parlor games. PvP is more likely to be harmful to people than combat trackers.

If there were legislation against combat trackers in games for the reason you state, that same legislation would also see rulers and tape measures banned, as these measuring devices are exactly as harmful to people as combat trackers (a measuring device) is.

All of a sudden there would be no scales, no multimeters, no stopwatches, timers or clocks.

Combat trackers are simply measuring facts - you can't say one means of measuring a fact is harmful without saying they all are.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

People in general will expect everyone to use the DPS meters - because the challenges will be designed for a reliance on the DPS meters

This has literally never happened in any game ever.

If you are going to make accusations, you should at least have something to point at to say "like that".

Even in WoW - a game with not only high combat tracker use, but also combat assistants which no one is asking for here - it is only actual top end content that is designed to need them.

Dygz

rikardp98 wrote: »

You again assume that the developers will make encounters with the DPS meter in mind, that's not good encounter design if you ask me.

And it's not up to other people to ask you what you identify as, that's up to you. So no one will ask you, they will assume you know what you are after in the game.

That's like saying it's just an assumption that if the devs implement ground telegraphs, they will design content with the expectation that people will generally attempt to move away from the ground telegraph.
Devs are going to design content with the expectation that people are using the tools they provide to assess that content.

How will people know who is hardcore and who is casual?
Not that it matters because DPS lovers don't care - all they care about is whether you adhere to the meta dictated by the combat tracker analysis.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

You again assume that the developers will make encounters with the DPS meter in mind, that's not good encounter design if you ask me.

And it's not up to other people to ask you what you identify as, that's up to you. So no one will ask you, they will assume you know what you are after in the game.

That's like saying it's just an assumption that if the devs implement ground telegraphs, they will design content with the expectation that people will generally attempt to move away from the ground telegraph.
Devs are going to design content with the expectation that people are using the tools they provide to assess that content.

How will people know who is hardcore and who is casual?
Not that it matters because DPS lovers don't care - all they care about is whether you adhere to the meta dictated by the combat tracker analysis.

I find it amusing how you always try and degrade people that are actually good at the game.

I do sometime wonder if you understand how pathetic that makes you look.

Tragnar

if the existance of a score leaderboard is the guiding principle against trackers then why do we have a confirmed leaderboards for dungeon/raid clears?

You will def have ppl that won't bother ever inviting players that are not above certain placement on those leaderboards

Songcaller

Good luck being so selective. Most likely, everyone will raid with their peers and different groups will roam fir different challenges. The likelihood that 100% of the top scorers on a leadership board will all be friends and allies is very slim.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

Good luck being so selective. Most likely, everyone will raid with their peers and different groups will roam fir different challenges. The likelihood that 100% of the top scorers on a leadership board will all be friends and allies is very slim.

Depending on how low the leaderboards go, it absolutely could happen.

If all they do is list the top 100 players, then people are unlikely to be all that selective.

On the other hand, if they go to 250 or 500, people will.

Even if it is only the top 100, if it is a leaderboard for a given piece of content you can bet people will be selective.

To be clear, I am not talking about guilds here - I am talking pick up content.

Tragnar

Neurath wrote: »

Good luck being so selective. Most likely, everyone will raid with their peers and different groups will roam fir different challenges. The likelihood that 100% of the top scorers on a leadership board will all be friends and allies is very slim.

ppl would ask for their placement(or time cleared) on it, it would most likely be of some often run dungeon/raid that isnt faceroll. And of course this is only concerning pugs, because in guilds the inclusivity is entirely up to the guild rules.

It really depends on the difficulty of the activity you want to pug. If the difficulty is higher and you want to avoid inviting clueless people (there are tons of them that sign up even though they know nothing about the activity and have not even learnt their class yet).

It could very well be just a link/key to a 3rd party leaderboard site if you want to pug something that is considered a harder content.

But hey - the only encounters we've been shown are loot boxes with flashy animations. All of the content might be completely faceroll and then all that you want to filter is some green quality freshly dinged newbie and having enough head count for pull

Songcaller

I have to admit, I understand the concept for arena. I appreciated the addition for arena (leader boards I mean) what I don't understand is the point of leader boards in pve.

If we have better rewards the better we perform (old reference, not sure of current position), then the barriers would have to be wide (more slots in leaderboard, less challenge) or narrow (less slots on leaderboard, more challenge).

Otherwise the whole concept relies on a single (or multiple) time markers to denote the pass grade or not. In effect, you would have a leaderboard with narrow gaps like formula 1 due to the nature of the support classes.

I was under the impression there would not be the same level of record and display like wow, yet, you would have to have some level of detail to differentiate between the 'grades' (phased boss access/ rewards).

To be less evasive and more certain, I do not understand the addition of a pve leaderboard and not a combat tracker. I still think IS should build a combat tracker for fairness and balance.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

I have to admit, I understand the concept for arena. I appreciated the addition for arena (leader boards I mean) what I don't understand is the point of leader boards in pve.

I don't get it either.

To me, it is Steven's way of telling us he doesn't understand PvE play, without telling us he doesn't understand PvE play.

rikardp98

Noaani wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

I have to admit, I understand the concept for arena. I appreciated the addition for arena (leader boards I mean) what I don't understand is the point of leader boards in pve.

I don't get it either.

To me, it is Steven's way of telling us he doesn't understand PvE play, without telling us he doesn't understand PvE play.

Wait wait, are they planning on adding a dungeon/raid scoreboard? Like showing raid progress and speed (guild)? Or is it a personal score board showing personal performance on a boss/raid?

Dygz

Never inviting people to something is fine.

Songcaller

Dygz wrote: »

Never inviting people to something is fine.

I said that for my wedding but it turns out I needed witnesses.

Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

I have to admit, I understand the concept for arena. I appreciated the addition for arena (leader boards I mean) what I don't understand is the point of leader boards in pve.

I don't get it either.

To me, it is Steven's way of telling us he doesn't understand PvE play, without telling us he doesn't understand PvE play.

Wait wait, are they planning on adding a dungeon/raid scoreboard? Like showing raid progress and speed (guild)? Or is it a personal score board showing personal performance on a boss/raid?

The scoreboard they are planning on adding (or at least talked about adding in 2017) was like a time to clear thing.

There hasn't been much talk about it since, which has me hoping they realized that PvE leaderboards are not really a good addition.

consultant

I wanted to add that there is nothing unusual or negative about posting dps after lets say every boss fight or pull it just when it is combined with trollish comments so dps meters like lets say in a guild would not be so bad. Dps plus negativity is somehing that is prevelent in the world of instant que, which Ashes of Creation.is not

No Dps meters in game was picked to detter negativity, so my question is. Is that like a guidline for the company. Is the company going to evaluate the negativity that can be caused be lets say spamming , have public profiles, Seems like hand holding to me. If you really want more positive severs then no dps meters Has to be coupled with positivey training and expections for it to work.

What about rankings are those going to be kept secrect. In pvp if you do not make the cut then that is just part of life. If you are not good enough at let say dps should that be hidden so you do not get picked on
I mean they are going to find out eventually. I mean in foot ball when someone fumbles a football it is quite the experience depending on who you are rooting for. So should fumbles be censored for people that watch it on tv so they do not pick on the player. I mean if a guy on your team fumble that makes some people turn red so should it be censored to people do not get angry.

If this MMO was fun based were dps was not too important then no dps meters makessense howeverrif the game has a signaficant competative aspect to it or challenging aspect to it then some type of metric is necessary.

It may seem like I am cotradicting my self if you look at my prior posts. I have a very real experience were negativity just snow balls out of control and creates toxic server and played on servers were people are mostly mature and it is a night and day experience. And when i think about that well no dps meters makes sense but as a player that spends quite a bit of time developing skills seems like a hindrance.

So I say conduct on experiment. Turn on a dps meteron one or two servers and see what happens. Seems pretty fair to me.

Dygz

Or start with no dps meter and see how much of a hindrance it is for developing your skills.

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