Removing the xp bar

I think how AoC plans to have good content for all levels and not emphasize 'end game' is great but how counter-intuitive that is for MMOs at this point. I think most players will naturally struggle with this and their daily login goal will be to accrue as much xp as possible before logging out. I think one way to resolve this would be to just remove the xp bar. When you don't know the numerical values of xp gain from mobs, crafting, quests, dungeons etc you are less likely to be bogged down with optimizing and can focus on what you like without FOMO. Quest completion could provide some audio+visual feedback that could scale with the amount of xp you earn to make you feel the weight of a particularly important and rewarding quest. Otherwise, when fighting mobs for a quest or grinding, you gauge based on how difficult or easy it is if this is giving you good or mediocre xp for your level.

On the flip side, I actually was struggling to come up with reasons why removing the xp bar would be bad/detrimental to play. The only real reason I came up with (outside of being annoyed it isn't there if you expected it) is if you had to plan your level up with visiting some NPC for gaining your new skills (I don't even know if this is the case). Without fast travel, I'd be annoyed if I was a hair away from leveling without knowing it just to travel super far from the NPC I was right beside that would give me my new skills/augments. This can have easy solutions though, like if you visit your class trainer NPC (if there is such a thing) and talking to them would give you some idea 'you are still quite a ways away' (<50%) vs 'you're halfway there!' (~50%) vs 'you are close' (~25%) vs 'just a bit more' (<10%).

I wonder what other people think, would this enhance gameplay with AoC's goals in mind? Would it be annoying?

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neuroguy

Shoelid wrote: »

The biggest downside to removing the XP bar is that watching it go up feels good. Seeing the big jump in progress after a difficult quest has always been the most satisfying part for me.

Basically, the core of the RPG genre is that "number goes up" feels good, and the XP bar is one of those numbers.

insomnia wrote: »

I don't like the idea of not having the xp information, about how much i get from x thing. If i grinded something, i would like to know how much i would need to progress. Take crafting f.x. I would like to know how many of x item i would need to level. I don't grind mobs to level. But there are people that does it. You would want to know if it was worth your time and/or how many you would need to kill

Yeah so I under-represented the pro-xp bar side, but at least I said as much in the op. I think these 2 comments hit the nail on the head as to why xp bars are useful. A sense of progress and the ability to plan for it. Even though I said lacking an xp bar would prevent feelings of having to optimize, it also sometimes feels good to plan to optimize haha, I guess it's a bit of a personal preference. I do not think it should be that much of a mystery if your mob grind is efficient or not though ( @georgeblack ) if the mobs are near your level, and you can kill a decent number of them per hour, that's a good grind. Realistically people don't test 10 different grind spots every couple levels anyways, when people have exact xp info though they can pool their knowledge in spreadsheets to come up with youtube video guides on 'best grind spots for lvl 1-50' and that to me sounds bland.

All I'm saying is that I'd not hate it if we either had the UI option to hide it in an alpha/beta or just have one of the alphas/betas start with them turned off to get some feedback on how it feels. I definitely want to avoid this convo going down the same path as the dps meter, erm, discussion (??) though haha. But I do think not having super detailed info on how much xp per mob and how much xp till you lvl will be good, perhaps not remove the xp bar completely but dumb it down to 10 little circles, when you hit 10% progress, 1 circle fills up and you don't know how much xp each mob gives, plus your quests will give xp in increments of 10%, so a big quest may give 30% and a little one gives 10%, or something like that... easy peasy.

neuroguy

pyreal wrote: »

I feel this notion falls into the same category as 'please remove classes', which has led to McClassless crap MMOs where every 'non-class' special snowflake character does everything.
It follows a siren song of 'limitless freedom and personal expression' but falls to shallow gameplay and dumbed down yet polished tropes.
Some think by removing supposed "restrictions" you are guaranteed a better experience, well you're not.
Finding the way forward within limits is what makes one stretch the imagination and allows you to find pleasure in excellence, a job well done, trials be damned.

I know from experience that sometimes your satisfaction from a play session is not playing so much as feeling you've moved forward in the game.

Your character has progressed, grown slightly more powerful, and that slight power boost is going to move you closer to exploring the world more, kicking that mob's ass that wrecked you on the way to the other town, and so forth.
MMOs are like a classic Hero quest story. From weak to strong, with all the trials in between.
The XP bar is a definitive marker of your progression towards Hero.
Leave my XP bar alone!

I appreciate Steven's new ideals, such as nodes. I feel they will foster player ownership of the game and foster longterm players. But the primary reason I am here is because AoC is at heart a CLASSIC MMORPG!

Lets drop classes and be freeflowing and kool
Lets drop mobs because swords aren't constructive
Lets drop xp bar because.... "less likely to be bogged down with optimizing"

What does THAT mean? 'bogged down' by developing my character?! This is an RPG, THAT ITS PURPOSE!

Well that's quite a dramatic take. i actually end up forgetting about xp bars until I hit an obstacle when I'm playing RPGs or when I run out of immersive quests and have to watch my xp bar crawl through grinding. The best RPGs I've ever played have made me forget about the xp bar completely while games that 'really start at the endgame' have me glued to my xp bar so I can finally start raiding or w.e but maybe that's just me. This isn't some slippery slope where 'FIRST THEY CAME FOR OUR XP BAR AND NOW WE ARE PLAYING FORTNITE!'. I'm just throwing out an idea that felt in line with AoC's design philosophies and goals and ultimately would be easy to test in an alpha/beta by giving the option to remove it or just removing it for everyone for a bit just to patch it in.

insomnia

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

I like the idea of no xp bar. I'd extend that to health bars as well. I enjoyed in lost ark having no indication of where the boss was at until we died or the boss did.

I didn't like that.
But people are different. Maybe an option to remove the xp bars. So those that want it, can keep it, and those that don't, can remove it

CROW3

There's a significant difference between hiding the xp bar and fundamentally rethinking why an XP bar (and maybe XP entirely) is necessary at all. I'm assuming the XP bar - and all UI elements - can be moved, resized, and hidden as just baseline UI customization.

It also sounds like rethinking XP in general is a triggering issue for some, so maybe we'll just set that down for now.

superhero6785

I can see an argument being made for no XP bar, but I can see an equal argument for seeing your XP bar go up when turning in quests, or killing a big mob, etc. Some people enjoy the smaller accomplishments, not just the DING of a new level.

Decidendi

neuroguy wrote: »

I think how AoC plans to have good content for all levels and not emphasize 'end game' is great but how counter-intuitive that is for MMOs at this point. I think most players will naturally struggle with this and their daily login goal will be to accrue as much xp as possible before logging out. I think one way to resolve this would be to just remove the xp bar. When you don't know the numerical values of xp gain from mobs, crafting, quests, dungeons etc you are less likely to be bogged down with optimizing and can focus on what you like without FOMO. Quest completion could provide some audio+visual feedback that could scale with the amount of xp you earn to make you feel the weight of a particularly important and rewarding quest. Otherwise, when fighting mobs for a quest or grinding, you gauge based on how difficult or easy it is if this is giving you good or mediocre xp for your level.

On the flip side, I actually was struggling to come up with reasons why removing the xp bar would be bad/detrimental to play. The only real reason I came up with (outside of being annoyed it isn't there if you expected it) is if you had to plan your level up with visiting some NPC for gaining your new skills (I don't even know if this is the case). Without fast travel, I'd be annoyed if I was a hair away from leveling without knowing it just to travel super far from the NPC I was right beside that would give me my new skills/augments. This can have easy solutions though, like if you visit your class trainer NPC (if there is such a thing) and talking to them would give you some idea 'you are still quite a ways away' (<50%) vs 'you're halfway there!' (~50%) vs 'you are close' (~25%) vs 'just a bit more' (<10%).

I wonder what other people think, would this enhance gameplay with AoC's goals in mind? Would it be annoying?

Uh, for someone who likes to track progress, it would be a nightmare for me not to see how much xp I'm getting per mob killed.

RevengeRoman

It seems to me the removal of the XP bar in its entirety would directly change how core features of AoC work. For example, if you engage in PvP and accrue negative XP as a result dying a few times, you have no way to tell how much negative XP you have accrued.

This would require a fundamental change to how dying affects systems such as the corruption system.

I think a way both the removing XP from being a factor for those who don't want it on their screen crowd, and the crowd that wants to be efficient with grinding could be satisfied with my suggestion.

What if XP was showcased as a Journal? Let's say the XP bar doesn't need to be present 100% of the time on your screen but if you press let's say the "J" key, it pulls up a journal that tells you what actions earned you what XP recently in a format similar to your character writing about their experiences but also provides some data on what you encountered, a time-line so that efficiency oriented players can readily deduce how much XP per hour they are earning, and a means to hide the journal or have a static condensed version present on your screen thats togglable for those who want to see where they are live.

This provided lots of flexibility, keeps with the theme of immersion, and provides players who aren't worried about efficiency the ability to opt out and clean up their UI.

Undead Canuck

I have always wanted to have the system just show the percentages, never numerical amounts.
I don't need to see that I got 123 XP for taking out mob A and 219 XP for mob B. Why not 1% (rounded for display) for mob A and 2% (rounded for display) for mob B? That way the XP bar works just like it looks.

This way, changes to the back end would not affect players as they are just used to seeing percentages. Plus it might help prevent min/maxing since you cannot see the values.

George_Black

Undead Canuck wrote: »

I have always wanted to have the system just show the percentages, never numerical amounts.
I don't need to see that I got 123 XP for taking out mob A and 219 XP for mob B. Why not 1% (rounded for display) for mob A and 2% (rounded for display) for mob B? That way the XP bar works just like it looks.

This way, changes to the back end would not affect players as they are just used to seeing percentages. Plus it might help prevent min/maxing since you cannot see the values.

At high lvs you will be looking at 0.0%. It would take a few mobs to see the bar progress by 0.1%. I never cared for the numbers until I reached 76+ in L2. And then, when you had 9 fully buffed people with the best gear in the game, spent 10s to kill a mob I started caring about the very best numbers in the system log.

fabula

This just seems like a major inconvenience and it will not have the effect of making people suddenly not care about getting to max level asap.

Having no xp bar is a big problem when you consider that there is xp loss in game or is "just don't die" the solution here?. This would have a major chilling effect on the way players interact with the world.

RevengeRoman

@fabula That's exactly my point in my post above, at this stage I don't think it's reasonable to remove the XP bar completely. The best way to address this is to either innovate on it or leave it the way it is.

I personally prefer a minimalist UI or at least a clean UI that shows info in a way that doesn't clutter my screen. Customizability is a big deal, but games like BDO just feel like there is too much useless information.

tautau

Many people find motivation to play by advancing their level, right? So having an XP bar motivates many people to log in and keep playing, making the game world better. Frustrating as it can be, I think that the game needs XP bars.

George_Black

It has nothing to do with motivation. It's a simple tool that shows how much this or that mob brings you closer to a lv.
It's a simple tool that shows you how much xp debt you currently have due to pvp.

Why is it all of a sudden "frustrating"?
Why do you need to re-invent the wheel of the most unimportant things?

RevengeRoman

@George_Black I agree this isn't something that should be reinvented. That said I do understand not necessarily wanting the XP bar to be present 100% of the time especially when it's no always needed. Some system should be discussed to make it readily accessible when needed, and the option to remove it or condense it when not needed or wanted.

Every extra piece that is present on the UI adds to the amount of information that may not be wanted or desired, BDO is one of the worst offenders even with their UI editing system.

This discussion should be less of the extreme "Let's completely remove this." And more of "Let's make sure ideas are present for the devs that allow for flexibility in the UI with regards to the XP bar."

I agree with you on this, the way this could be implemented could be as simple as the XP bar disappearing when not earning or losing XP after a certain amount of time. Or it could be more complex like my suggestion about the Journal. Either way it creates options.

But thats just my take.

Noaani

RevengeRoman wrote: »

This discussion should be less of the extreme "Let's completely remove this." And more of "Let's make sure ideas are present for the devs that allow for flexibility in the UI with regards to the XP bar."

Yeah, this is why I don't get conversations like this.

The XP bar is a UI element.

Literally all UI elements should be able to do all of the following at an absolute minimum;
be moved
be resized
have their background color changed
have their base background transparency changed
have their base foreground transparency changed
have their mouseover background transparency changed
have their mouseover foreground transparency changed
have contextual triggers to switch between base and mouseover transparencies.

If there is a single UI element in the game that can not have one of the above performed on it, the UI is not as complete as the UI of MMO's that are 20 years old (or, will be by the time Ashes releases).

If the experience bar can do all of the above, then any player can decide if they want to see it, when they want to see it, how big it should be when they see it, what color background it has (if any) when they see it - and this is just the stuff that should apply to all UI elements, there should also be element specific adjustments (experience being shown as a number, fraction or bar, for example).

These forums amaze me sometimes with how often people try to push the way they want to play the game on to others, without realizing that all they are talking about is UI customization.

Dygz

Plenty to do with motivation.
There are days when I monitor the xp bar progress to determine the length of my play session.
That's especially true when I have xp debt.
If I'm not seeing sufficient progress on the xp bar, I may choose not to play until I see that the progression is moving faster...

Some people may consider the xp bar to be needless UI clutter and therefore frustrating.

RevengeRoman

@Noaani Yeah really what intrigues me is how we can innovate on it or if it's even possible. Purely as a matter of discussion and without removing the XP bar as a function from a game.

I noticed @Vaknar was looking for innovative ideas, hence the journal idea. It doesn't remove the XP bar in its core functionality or cause a fundamental rework of core features, but might add some interesting depth to it that other MMO's I've played haven't had.

But that said I will not consider anything that fundamentally changes the game from what Intrepid have already talked about.

The best inventions are those that take PROVEN concepts from many places and put them into one place. This is true in everything from airplanes and rockets, to video games and computers.

Dygz

Yep. We'll have to see what their vision of the UI is.
Then it will be easier to give meaingful feedback about adjustments.

Noaani

RevengeRoman wrote: »

hence the journal idea.

I'm not at all against that idea - though I wouldn't want it to be the only way players can access experience information.

That said, to me, that whole functionality could be achieved if Intrepid added in a combat tracker function to the game. Since most games have a line of chat text with the name of the mob you killed and the experience you gained from it, a combat tracker (built in or third party) would be able to track that just fine.

Again, while I am not at all against your suggestion, I am absolutely a fan of getting multiple uses out of a single tool. To me, it makes more sense to have a tracker UI that tracks combat, experience, crafting, loot, market sales - literally anything at all in game that has a number applied to it. Put that in a UI element labeled "play session statistics" or some such, and that is all the info on basically everything that a player could want.

RevengeRoman

@Noaani I agree, I think the main concern should be UI clutter and giving options. @Dygz Yes, it is hard to do anything but speculate until actual footage of the release UI comes out, I'm excited to see what they come up with!

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