Removing the xp bar

I think how AoC plans to have good content for all levels and not emphasize 'end game' is great but how counter-intuitive that is for MMOs at this point. I think most players will naturally struggle with this and their daily login goal will be to accrue as much xp as possible before logging out. I think one way to resolve this would be to just remove the xp bar. When you don't know the numerical values of xp gain from mobs, crafting, quests, dungeons etc you are less likely to be bogged down with optimizing and can focus on what you like without FOMO. Quest completion could provide some audio+visual feedback that could scale with the amount of xp you earn to make you feel the weight of a particularly important and rewarding quest. Otherwise, when fighting mobs for a quest or grinding, you gauge based on how difficult or easy it is if this is giving you good or mediocre xp for your level.

On the flip side, I actually was struggling to come up with reasons why removing the xp bar would be bad/detrimental to play. The only real reason I came up with (outside of being annoyed it isn't there if you expected it) is if you had to plan your level up with visiting some NPC for gaining your new skills (I don't even know if this is the case). Without fast travel, I'd be annoyed if I was a hair away from leveling without knowing it just to travel super far from the NPC I was right beside that would give me my new skills/augments. This can have easy solutions though, like if you visit your class trainer NPC (if there is such a thing) and talking to them would give you some idea 'you are still quite a ways away' (<50%) vs 'you're halfway there!' (~50%) vs 'you are close' (~25%) vs 'just a bit more' (<10%).

I wonder what other people think, would this enhance gameplay with AoC's goals in mind? Would it be annoying?

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Tragnar

If the game makes experience and thus levels the most important and most powerful character power then it would be ridiculous to hide progression information from the player about it

I personally dislike the overwhelming power that levels in wow have - not only that you get extra base stats, talent points, but most importantly the game damage calculations are changing in your favor the higher level you are

If levels in Ashes dont have such overwhelming power and augments can have significant non-utility power (for example to be more than +5 base damage) then the importance of levels becomes really small, because the player is not gate-kept from power and content because of the amount of experience gathered

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

If the game makes experience and thus levels the most important and most powerful character power then it would be ridiculous to hide progression information from the player about it

I personally dislike the overwhelming power that levels in wow have - not only that you get extra base stats, talent points, but most importantly the game damage calculations are changing in your favor the higher level you are

If levels in Ashes dont have such overwhelming power and augments can have significant non-utility power (for example to be more than +5 base damage) then the importance of levels becomes really small, because the player is not gate-kept from power and content because of the amount of experience gathered

I fully expect players in Ashes to gain access to abilities based on level.

Players will always want any given class marque ability to be given to them at the level cap - it is seen as a reward for leveling.

I do not see Ashes doing away with players gaining access to abilities based on level, nor do I see them making the ability at the level cap anything other than a marque ability.

As such, since you are not getting access to your actual class marque ability until you have finished leveling, level progression will have that importance to it.

If you are not at the level cap, you do not have the marque ability for your class. If you do not have that marque ability for your class, are you even that class at all?

Tragnar

Well skills in games boil down to these 3 types
1 - spam of single ability/spell without cooldown on it
2 - build - spend skills where you empower ability through the use of another one (using X after Y has bonus effect) or generally generate a resource that is used by the other skills (generate X, consume X)
3 - several strong cd skill attacks that are used whenever they are ready through a priority list

It is a matter how playable your character is prior to the max lvl. If the most used skill is gained only at max level then in my opinion it is a design failure, because you've spent a lot of time playing a class that doesnt exist at max lvl - that is why usually at highest lvls you get impactful cooldowns or powerful abilities with a long cooldown, because those abilities are not core ones, but are just a flavor through which skill is usually expressed (like damage boost skill before you unload your whole spellbar)

Levels grant skill or talent points (depending on the game) that are used to cap or reach big power boosts. And I have yet to see a game where the most powerful power boost isnt reachable prior to max lvl, because mostly max lvl means you can have several of those at the same

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

\If the most used skill is gained only at max level then in my opinion it is a design failure

I didn't say anything at all about most used.

I have yet to level a character in a game where the spell you gain at level 30 (as an example) is more powerful than the spell you gain at level 50. This would be bad game design.

Tragnar

In my experience the lvl 50 spell is either direct replacement - meaning the same function but better in every way (visuals, dmg) or a special attack that you can use once in some time, so it doesnt replace your previous skills, but widens the skillset

I see leveling class like learning drumming - you start from simple principles until you learn advanced stuff that is basically layering the starting principles together to create the music you want

That would be like giving in ffxiv ninja the ninjutsu skills at max lvl - instead you get the first one even before halfway point

or in wow tbc you have final talent for assassination rogue a new builder ability that is practically the same as the previous one, but better. The class gameplay isnt changed by replacing your primary skill with it

What I want to say is that if the whole gameplay loop is to spam 1 button then yes every new spell that does the job better than the lower lvl one is basically new spell, but in reality it is still the same 1button class and the class doesnt change with the max lvl skill

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

I see leveling class like learning drumming - you start from simple principles until you learn advanced stuff that is basically layering the starting principles together to create the music you want

So, I think we have found the disconnect.

You seem to think Ashes will have essentially class kits akin to FFXIV or WoW, where the class gives you a mechanic that you need to learn and master for that class. In such a game, sure - having the marque ability given at the level cap may not be ideal.

However, that isn't going to be (can't be) how Ashes classes are designed.

We know players are able to spend points in just a few abilities to have access to just those few, but they will be stronger - or players can spend points to gain access to many abilities, but each ability will be less strong.

We also know players will need to be able to create a build using only 25% action, or using only 25% tab combat abilities.

Players having the above freedom simply precludes there being class specific mechanics as there are in FFXIV- there simply isn't room for them to exist with the above.

Any additional mechanic (where it is a builder/spender a counter, what ever) will have to be limited to 3 abilities - maybe 4 at a push.

You're speaking from a position of your previous experience - obviously. However, rather than looking at FFXIV and WoW (two games that have not been cited as influences for Ashes), perhaps look to Archeage class builds for an idea on what may happen - a game where you just so happen to get access to the best abilities for your class at the level cap.

The idea of anything other than the best ability of your class being the level cap ability in a game like Archeage is just... weird.

Tragnar

Not necessarily, because the skills available are not going to be cross-archetype - afaik that is

you can have class specific mechanics built in the classes - like the mage archetype (main archetype) can have some kind of magical charge resource and every mage skill can in some way interact with that resource

When I glanced over at archeage online builder site it is pretty clear that the system is based on strong standalone skills that use crossclass mechanics - like stuns/bleeds etc - to build synergies and thus rotations - as limited as they can be

What I understand about Ashes is that the skill budget is main archetype exclusive, because you don't choose 2 main archetypes, but 1 main one and one secondary. Where you basically have 8 different perspectives of the base skill that fundamentally doesnt change. Ashes is more like 8 archetypes with 8 ways to customize that archetype than - you have 8 archetypes and you combine base skills across archetypes

This allows you a lot of freedom to create class specific mechanics (like in ffxiv or wow) even though those might not go to the same extent as in those games

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

you can have class specific mechanics built in the classes - like the mage archetype (main archetype) can have some kind of magical charge resource and every mage skill can in some way interact with that resource

As I said - you *can*, it is just limited to 3 or 4 abilities. It will not be a class defining thing.

The class defining thing in Ashes will be the level 50 ability each primary archetype gets.

Tragnar

That kinda doesn't make sense why these abilities need to be tied to the max lvl. The only precedent for it is that Archeage does that and funnily enough it is actually a thing that goes against the OP message - which is to incentivize players to not care about rushing to max lvl.

Gatekeeping skills that transform the way you play the game until you hit max lvl creates a big pressure to rush to max level, because people just don't want to play incomplete class.

I am all for having strong augments be a reward only for a max lvl player, but the player should never wait that long for a base core skill.

Thing is that people way back were not rushing max lvl out of ignorance and not because they chose to take their time leveling up. Today's culture shouts at you from every angle what awaits you at max lvl, what things are the most efficient and many other guides like that. So given the same game people will play it in different way, so you can't apply the same philosophy about gatekeeping the best things the class has to offer to the highest lvl and not expect for players to speedrun the leveling process.

It is definitely not good for the health of the game for players to invest hundreds of hours into a character before you can actually try out what the class can actually do.

Saintphoenix

Im sorry but i just cant get on board with the idea of removing xp bar, coz then why not just remove xp, then remove levels, lets just remove progression, levels predate video game rpgs, look at things like DnD they have xp and levels in that, its a core aspect of RPGs along with spells/skills and such, to me removing xp/levels is like removing skills, they are all core aspects

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

Thing is that people way back were not rushing max lvl out of ignorance and not because they chose to take their time leveling up. Today's culture shouts at you from every angle what awaits you at max lvl, what things are the most efficient and many other guides like that. So given the same game people will play it in different way, so you can't apply the same philosophy about gatekeeping the best things the class has to offer to the highest lvl and not expect for players to speedrun the leveling process.

No. Leveling is intended to be the journey. Way back, we did choose to take our time leveling.
But, gamers can race through content way faster than devs can create content, so we fairly quickly reached a norm where it takes maybe a month to reach max level and then we wait years for an expansion.
After several years of that, new MMORPG players came to believe that max level is "the real game" and leveling is merely an annoying grind intended to slow down access to the real fun.

Tragnar

That is partially true, because I admit mmo leveling was designed and intended to be a journey, but that whole notion was completely undermined when devs started to create exclusive content for max lvl and the cycle of speeding leveling up and focusing more and more on endgame began

This caused a narrative shift from "leveling being the journey" to "leveling as an introduction to the game" and thus people started more and more speed through the introduction because there was content at the end of it that the "big boys" were clearing and it was widely accepted as the final stretch goal of the whole mmo experience, because once you killed the latest content you could say that you've beaten the game

What I want to point out is that the mmo genre started with a progression plan that worked in single player games and their only addition to it was to cap the levels and create max lvl only content that was mostly gatekept from players until they've gathered strong enough gear.

I definitely agree with OP that Ashes should disincentivize reaching max lvl as a first priority - let them make many augments and many side power progression systems - like putting significant portion of obtainable skill points into the world instead of skill points being obtainable only from leveling up.

Dygz

It didn't start like that, though.
By 2005, devs started realizing that there was not much hope for providing new content every year - especialy not with a new max cap.
And then they started creating content that anticipated players being stuck at max level for 18 months to 2 years.
But, 2005 was not the start of MMORPGs.

In Ashes, reaching max Adventurer Level is not designed as a priority. There are several adventure paths.
The priority is keeping your own Node at the Metro Level, hopefully with your own Race as the dominant race of that Metro.
In addition to Adventurer progression, there's also Artisan, Racial, Relgion and Social Org progression.
Plenty to focus on besides just reaching max Adventurer level.

DocRohi

I was hoping that AoC was going to be something new to MMORPG, doing away with the concept of traditional levelling and thus the XP bar. Something along the lines of skills and attributes increasing depending on what you actually do in the game...Eg you use sword skills to kill mobs you get a Good contribution to next point in sword skills, a mild contribution towards Strength and a mild contribution towards dexterity. You use mace giant axe skills to kill mobs you get a good contribution to next point in sword skills and a good contribution towards the next point in strength. You use Fire spell to kill mobs and you get a good contribution towards the next point in fire spells, a moderate contribution towards Intelligence stat and a mild contribution towards mana recovery/pool. You run for x amount of miles you get moderate increase towards stamina. You run for x amount of miles with a fully laden backpack you get a good contribution towards stamina etc.
You end up running multiple XP bars without gaining XP being the sole focus of gameplay. You still get the endorphin reward from ding a level of skill and you can still give a level based on a stats/skills algorithm and thus restrict or access content that would be rewarding for having "levelled up". This gives the freedom from the XP bar, allows those that need progress markers their goalposts and allows the optimizing that makes party role specialisation a worthwhile and rewarding venture.
Yes it means that you could get a level 50 who only has strength stamina and agriculture entering a dungeon and getting spanked, but then really who spends all that time farming and suddenly thinks they can run into a dungeon without consequences?

only my thoughts for something beyond the linear without losing the grind for those that still want to max quickly

Dygz

Ashes will be adding new features.
But, it's an RPG. You should have been expecting Adventurer levels as well as skill levels.
Similar to D&D and Pathfinder. Especially since Ashes is based on Steven's Pathfinder homebrew game.
EQ had a skill leveling system similar to what you describe. That's not new.

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

That kinda doesn't make sense why these abilities need to be tied to the max lvl. The only precedent for it is that Archeage does that

Not at all, it was standard throughout the EQ franchise as well.

In fact, it is the standard in most non WoW-clone games.

The thing I think you are missing is that getting such an ability does not alter too much of how you play the class. An example of this is EQ2's Wizard class (one I played for more than a decade).

You level up learning to play the class as you go. You start off learning spell rotations when you only have a few spells, then when you have more spells than you can fit in to a rotation you transition over to learning spell priority.

Then at level 50 you gain Ice Comet - the biggest nuke in the game for any class. Since you have only just learned how spell priority works, you now simply slot Ice Comet in to your priority and you are away.

Every class got such an ability at the level cap in that game. Warlocks got Apocalypses, Assassins got Assassinate, Rangers got Storm of Arrows.

This was not a problem as you seem to think it should be - but only because the games classes were not supposed to be played in some static means like WoW always has been (I can't speak to FFXIV).

The fact that you are so adamant that it can't work simply says you have never played a game in which it would work, or does work - as I said earlier you are speaking from your own experience.

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The idea that players will not rush to max level in Ashes is just false. if you want to progress your node, max level is where it is at. As with literally every game ever, the higher level you are, the more experience you are able to earn. The more experience you earn, the more experience you contribute towards leveling your node. As such, the most useful thing you can do to level your node, is to level your character.

Ashes actually gives players MORE of a reason to rush to the level cap than a game like WoW does.

Balrog21

@crowe it seems, most everyone wants to stay in the familiar yard, and not venture forth to discovery. Which is sad in itself. I want more, new things, new ideas, the node system is such a thing and look how much attention it's garnered. The chains of familiarity and comfort stifle and bind the mind.

Tragnar

Noaani wrote: »

Then at level 50 you gain Ice Comet - the biggest nuke in the game for any class. Since you have only just learned how spell priority works, you now simply slot Ice Comet in to your priority and you are away.

I agree, because in that case you are not introducing nothing new, you just give the player something that he already had, but it is looking better and does more damage

The fact that you are so adamant that it can't work simply says you have never played a game in which it would work, or does work - as I said earlier you are speaking from your own experience.

I wasnt meaning that it doesnt work, but that it creates a pressure on hitting max lvl and that it is bad design for a class to play totally differently than during leveling so players need to invest way too much time to finally tryout how the class plays

The idea that players will not rush to max level in Ashes is just false. if you want to progress your node, max level is where it is at. As with literally every game ever, the higher level you are, the more experience you are able to earn. The more experience you earn, the more experience you contribute towards leveling your node. As such, the most useful thing you can do to level your node, is to level your character.

Ashes actually gives players MORE of a reason to rush to the level cap than a game like WoW does.

I agree that this is the case, but I think it heavily collides with the messaging for taking your time for leveling - basically devs say to players to not care about rushing the leveling, but the game tells the complete opposite simply because levels seem to be the most impactful thing in the game so far

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

I agree, because in that case you are not introducing nothing new, you just give the player something that he already had, but it is looking better and does more damage

As I have been trying to explain to you, I never once said it was an ability that alters how the class is played. It is a signature ability of the class, not a paradigm altering ability.

If you have a game where skill priority is the method used (as opposed to a rotation or facilitating some cheesy class based resource or mechanic), then you can always add new abilities to the class without it actually altering how the class is played - all players need to do is to work out where that new ability fits in the priority system.

Tragnar wrote: »

I agree that this is the case, but I think it heavily collides with the messaging for taking your time for leveling - basically devs say to players to not care about rushing the leveling, but the game tells the complete opposite simply because levels seem to be the most impactful thing in the game so far

I don't recall that ever being a message from Intrepid.

They have said that you can't just rush the level cap in a week - the node system prevents it.

However, they have not said they don't expect players to rush that level cap as quickly as they are able to.

The comments about players taking their time to level comes from a small subset of players, not the developers.

NetherAngel

Hard no from me, seeing how much I have left and pushing towards it dictates how I play at times. People will grind hard no matter what, not having an xp bar just makes those who cant feel better about not seeing it. People enjoy the game in different ways. If you dont want an xp bar, remove it with countless addons I'm sure the game will have.

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