Gear Enhance/Upgrade Through Expansion

Hey everyone, JJien here.

When I play MMORPGs, I find myself very easily attached to pieces of gears that I worked really hard for and wear/use for a very long time. For me, as a result, whenever a game welcomes a new expansion and tons of new gears come out, it is always a bitter-sweet experience since with arrivals of the new loots I have to kiss my old buddies good bye.

I think it would be really cool if Ashes can consider a gear upgrade system that gets through expansions for gears above a certain rarity, and imo, such system would really fit AOC's loot/craft philosophy due to a couple reasons:

Ashes bosses drop materials instead of actual gears, thus a new expansion boss dropping material that allows upgrading old gear would essentially be the same as dropping material for crafting a new piece of gear.
Older contents, including gears, bosses, and low level harvests will remain relevant even with updates, and there will be more motivation for players to go back to lower level zones as a result, preventing these lower level places from becoming ghost areas - something we often see in current mmos.
With older harvests and boss loots still relevant, more resources will be viable for player driven market, allowing diversity in trade competition, and also easier starts for newcomers to make their first bucket of gold.
Great for the players who become attached to their items, like myself. I would love to wield a sword that will constantly remind me the friends who supported me along the way of obtaining it even many years down the road.

That being said, I would like to know what the community think about this idea. If you don't like it, what are some ways you think this will hurt the game? And if you like it, let's talk about how this can be implemented in a game, and suggestions on how we as a community can polish this idea and persuade our devs to adopt it

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Atama

I don't see a downside as long as there is still a money sink in place to maintain/upgrade it, and crafters need to be involved in the process (gathering/processing materials, and then applying them to the item).

Caww

A "perpetual skin" for your favorite looking piece would be just fine, that way you can enjoy the newer stats/features but still retain the look & memories you want.

JamesSunderland

Ashes bosses drop materials instead of actual gears, thus a new expansion boss dropping material that allows upgrading old gear would essentially be the same as dropping material for crafting a new piece of gear.

Bosses do drop actual gear, just has a lower chance than their gear materials.

Loot tables of world bosses or dungeon bosses have a small RNG chance of dropping gear (completed items). Monsters drop hunting certificates, Items and crafting materials rather than gold.

There is a much higher chance that materials and unique recipes are dropped that can be used to craft items of equitable value.
There is a small RNG chance of looting rare and legendary items or crafting materials from mobs based on the level, status and type of mob. This also applies to harvesting resources with a gathering

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables

Dygz

That's what transmogs are for?

Taleof2Cities

Dygz wrote: »

That's what transmogs are for?

Agree, @Dygz.

There's a whole page on the Wiki committed to gear appearance and skins. You're aware of it I'm sure, but other players might not be.

New DLCs will have a level cap increase and new gear. But, unlike other MMOs, funded through the subscription-base instead of it being paid DLC.

JJien

Dygz wrote: »

That's what transmogs are for?

Not entirely. Transmog is cosmetic - what I am talking about is a constant upgrade of a certain piece of gear, and with new material from later expac, maintain approximately the same stat ratio while increasing in absolute number with the overall level cap increase, while also some tweaks in its looks. Thats not exactly what transmog is for.

JJien

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

That's what transmogs are for?

Agree, @Dygz.

There's a whole page on the Wiki committed to gear appearance and skins. You're aware of it I'm sure, but other players might not be.

New DLCs will have a level cap increase and new gear. But, unlike other MMOs, funded through the subscription-base instead of it being paid DLC.

@Taleof2Cities I am very well aware of the transmog system. But this is an idea different from the transmog and serve a different purpose. Transmogs are dedicated to appearance only, but what I propose here is the capability to carry an equipment and maintain its stats ratio, while increasing the number following the new level cap, and with the new added materials in the upgrade possibly some new elements in its appearance.
I didn't talk about this in my response to Dygz, but I will add it here. With different materials used for upgrade there can be a focused stat, or even an additional stat in the new expansion, allowing branches from the same base gear, which I think would be very interesting.

JJien

Atama wrote: »

I don't see a downside as long as there is still a money sink in place to maintain/upgrade it, and crafters need to be involved in the process (gathering/processing materials, and then applying them to the item).

Yes, I think the idea is to make it a similar commitment compared to crafting an entirely new item - but just through a heritage of some specific older pieces of gears.
And I do think if there is enough need for this upgraded item in the newer expansion, it will help populating some older areas that for whatever reason might get abandoned - although in ashes cases I would believe that is harder to happen due to the node systems.

Dygz

The Ship of Theseus?

In general, I like to keep my recognizable Batman suit.
But, there are times when I might need different versions of the suit and different gadgets for different situations and environments.
When in Rome...

Player characters upgrading gear is a key aspect of RPGs. Expect that to be a thing.
But, sure, you can try upgrading your signature gear via new enchantments and swapping out gems in sockets. But you should also expect to adopt new gear at some point.

JJien

Dygz wrote: »

Player characters upgrading gear is a key aspect of RPGs. Expect that to be a thing.
But, sure, you can try upgrading your signature gear via new enchantments and swapping out gems in sockets. But you should also expect to adopt new gear at some point.

I'm not sure if I explained my idea clear enough.
Gear upgrading is without a doubt a main aspect of RPGs, MMO or not. I am not saying gear swapping throughout different expansions shouldn't be a thing, and in fact I think that should be the norm - in which players should expect majority of their gears would be abandoned through updates and expansion, replaced with better gears.
I am proposing that, some, very special gears, should have the chance to live through expansions, with upgrades through crafting - which involve spending probably equivalent amount of materials that can craft a new piece of gear from the new expansion - that are permanent, different from enchant/jewels that can be swapped out and replaced.
Take WOW as an example. The hand of ragnaros was crafted as an epic gear, then with extra material, it becomes legendary and thus stronger. What I am saying is, take a sword from base game, that is probably a unique item/ end game rare item, and allow it to be upgraded to end game level of base game with the use of materials that are only obtainable in end game of the expansion. It's not really the ship of Theseus - you are not taking anything out and repairing it with new material. You are making it into something new while keeping a part of the heritage of your old sword within, which I think is cool. And even with all this, new gears will still be used by people who want to use new gears, enchants and jewels should still be available - nothing should be taken away, but an opportunity for gears that are worthy to live through expansions.
Kind of like, if you ever played monster hunter, how you carry a weapon you are attached to and familiar with, upgrade it through looted materials, and carry it through base game, into DLCs, and even to the very end.

Noaani

JJien wrote: »

Ashes bosses drop materials instead of actual gears, thus a new expansion boss dropping material that allows upgrading old gear would essentially be the same as dropping material for crafting a new piece of gear.

This is kind of what I expect for Ashes - at least for some gear progression paths.

They have made comments that suggest this in the past, but it is also how itemization in Archeage worked.

Dygz

I understand what your proposal is.
I covered that:
"Sure, you can try upgrading your signature gear via new enchantments and swapping out gems in sockets. But you should also expect to adopt new gear at some point."
Expect that "permanent upgrades" are only "permanent" because you choose not to swap that specific upgrade for something from the expansion.

If you are upgrading the same item...after multiple upgrades...is it still the same item?

Sylvanar

Dygz wrote: »

If you are upgrading the same item...after multiple upgrades...is it still the same item?

I think both of you are correct in your own way.

OP wants to preserve the experience and memories associated with obtaining the gear and then upgrading it so that the gear remains relevant with expansions though it might not be best choice in the new expansion.

You are saying that with expansions what a class/character needs to remain at the top, BiS so to speak, could change which would make that item upgrade less relevant stats-wise and hence the need for newer item would arise.

Ultimately its players choice and gear upgrade would be a nice to have feature imo rather then strict gear replacement policy like it is in WoW. Tbh it would not be that complex to implement something like this. Although some testing would be required wrt to some stats like crit, arp of the top of my head.

One major upside to this that I can think of is that IS wouldn't need to flood the game with 100s of new gears with every expansion. Ex: Lets say in vanilla AoC for a rogue, the best gears prioritizes armor penetration. Then for the expansion they can make it so that the best gear of the expansion prioritizes attack power. Now its up to the player to decide on how to stack stats to get the maximum they want. This is because meta wouldn't be as clear cut in AoC as it is in MMOs with static world.

Rednam

JJien wrote: »

I find myself very easily attached to pieces of gears that I worked really hard for

I got away from this mindset years ago during the haydays of the DayZ mod... and learned to NEVER get attached to anything lol...

but yes, i can empathize with your sentiment. Im looking forward to seeing how the crafting system will work in regards to this.

Dygz

Sylvanar wrote: »

OP wants to preserve the experience and memories associated with obtaining the gear and then upgrading it so that the gear remains relevant with expansions though it might not be best choice in the new expansion.

You are saying that with expansions what a class/character needs to remain at the top, BiS so to speak, could change which would make that item upgrade less relevant stats-wise and hence the need for newer item would arise.

Yep. But, I'm not talking about Best In Slot.
I'm just saying - over the course of multiple expansions with increasing level cap - expect to have to adopt new items at some point.
Part of that will be because the old item(s) will mostly become effectively worthless and they won't have been designed to accomodate the new forms of upgrades. Even if that's because the base materials are effectively worthless.
Like trying to bring a steel sword to a fight that requires mithril. At some point, that steel sword is going to need to be replaced with a mithril weapon that is strong enough to handle the high-grade enchantments and gems to be effective at all - let alone Best In Slot. And there will likely be other forms of upgrades -runes or whatever- that can't be applied to the outdated items.

I don't even believe in META, so I am never contemplating ways for people to pursue a META.

superhero6785

JJien wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

That's what transmogs are for?

Not entirely. Transmog is cosmetic - what I am talking about is a constant upgrade of a certain piece of gear, and with new material from later expac, maintain approximately the same stat ratio while increasing in absolute number with the overall level cap increase, while also some tweaks in its looks. Thats not exactly what transmog is for.

Not sure if I would like that sort of a system. That cheapens new gear drops. The grind to find a higher tier piece of gear with the stats you want, or going through the effort of crafting a piece, is all part of the process. Having some repetitive process of upgrade mats to continuously push one piece of gear through the tiers seems kinda lame. If you like the look, I'm 100% on board with transmog unlocks every time you find a new piece of gear and can apply that skin to similar pieces. I'm not on board with finding one piece of gear with just the right ratio of stats and then forever upgrading it.

Sylvanar

Dygz wrote: »

Like trying to bring a steel sword to a fight that requires mithril. At some point, that steel sword is going to need to be replaced with a mithril weapon that is strong enough to handle the high-grade enchantments and gems to be effective at all - let alone Best In Slot. And there will likely be other forms of upgrades -runes or whatever- that can't be applied to the outdated items.

True. I hadn't considered this cuz the upgrade will only increase the stats and not introduce new possibilities to the gear.
Although one of the major things which makes me apprehensive about this is that the passive/active of the gear will become irrelevant because the numbers associated with them won't change.

superhero6785 wrote: »

That cheapens new gear drops. The grind to find a higher tier piece of gear with the stats you want, or going through the effort of crafting a piece, is all part of the process.

Not true. The upgrade would require same material and in similar amount as the ones needed to craft the same tier items of that expansion. So the grind and everything would still be needed to be done by the player.

Dygz

Yes. I think we will be able to do some of this - but eventually there will be times when we need to use gear that's crafted from the expansion resources because the Tier of recipes the Master Crafters wield will require that. And lower Tier gear won't hae sufficient effect against the higher Tier challenges.

I don't think of it as an all or nothing dichotomy.

Child Item