Threat assessment with cosmetics

This discussion was created from comments split from: Sub price, cosmetic shop and alternative rules server..

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Noaani wrote: »

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As I was typing that exact line of thinking plopped into my head too and I now have a new recommendation for the enemy indicators thread that includes an indicator for player character’s primary gear type worn so you’re not flinging fireballs at what you think is a magic weak plate wearer when they are really wearing cloth. Or a limitation on transmogging where you can only transmog cloth gear to cloth gear, plate to plate. (Before even finishing this comment I realized how difficult this would be to put on an indicator due to mix and matching).

As far as weapons I feel the same as my last statement. Axes should transmog to axes, swords to swords.

I don’t think knowing exactly what gear they transmogged from is as important since they could not have any transmog and you still wouldn’t know what stats the crafter put on it the gear. Armor type is definitely an important factor that you would, could, and should be able to know by looking though.

Atama

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

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As I was typing that exact line of thinking plopped into my head too and I now have a new recommendation for the enemy indicators thread that includes an indicator for player character’s primary gear type worn so you’re not flinging fireballs at what you think is a magic weak plate wearer when they are really wearing cloth. Or a limitation on transmogging where you can only transmog cloth gear to cloth gear, plate to plate. (Before even finishing this comment I realized how difficult this would be to put on an indicator due to mix and matching).

This is already the case when you’re using cosmetic armor pieces.

However, we also have full body costumes that will cover any gear.

HumblePuffin

Never mind they already plan for a way to tell by targeting players, was noted in the PvP section of the wiki not the cosmetic section, which is why I missed it:

“Players will have a buff on their nameplate that indicates the gear set they are wearing. Other players will be able to see this buff by targeting that player at a distance.[26][27][28]

This will indicate the type of armor (cloth, leather, plate) that they are predominantly wearing.[29][27]
You can target a player. You're going to see what type of armor they have based on a buff they have available to them because obviously cosmetics can change appearance. You might have different silhouettes as a result of that.[29] – Steven Sharif“

Noaani

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Never mind they already plan for a way to tell by targeting players, was noted in the PvP section of the wiki not the cosmetic section, which is why I missed it:

Yes, this is a thing.

However, if ten enemies are coming at me any my friends, I need to target 10 people individually to find out this information on them.

I should be able to see this information by looking at their character.

Atama

Noaani wrote: »

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Never mind they already plan for a way to tell by targeting players, was noted in the PvP section of the wiki not the cosmetic section, which is why I missed it:

Yes, this is a thing.

However, if ten enemies are coming at me any my friends, I need to target 10 people individually to find out this information on them.

I should be able to see this information by looking at their character.

A buff showing up as an icon designed to be distinct and easily seen would be easier for me to recognize and interpret than looking at someone's gear and trying to remember what kind of armor that was.

HumblePuffin

Yeah just change it from “when targeted” to “always on the name plate” and it would be more precise then visually observing the persons armor.

Visually observing the persons armor would be way more difficult the more I think about it. Person could be wearing a cloth robe with plate boots, legs, and hands. All I see is the robe so at a glance I think I’m looking at someone weak to physical, “I’m gonna go stab that clothie with my rogue daggers, oh wait I do no damage, annnnd I’m dead”.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Never mind they already plan for a way to tell by targeting players, was noted in the PvP section of the wiki not the cosmetic section, which is why I missed it:

Yes, this is a thing.

However, if ten enemies are coming at me any my friends, I need to target 10 people individually to find out this information on them.

I should be able to see this information by looking at their character.

A buff showing up as an icon designed to be distinct and easily seen would be easier for me to recognize and interpret than looking at someone's gear and trying to remember what kind of armor that was.

If you were going for the exact armor piece, yes it would.

However, that isn't what you would be going for. You would be looking for the base type of armor.

I'm sure it wouldn't take you any time or effort to distinguish between plate armor and robes.

The system as Steven described it is literally taken directly out of Archeage - so I have years of experience with it. It would be better if we could see what players were wearing by looking at them.

Atama

Noaani wrote: »

I'm sure it wouldn't take you any time or effort to distinguish between plate armor and robes.

I have struggled in plenty of games to tell the difference between plate armor and cloth/leather armor with pads that is a silvery color. I definitely have trouble telling the difference between a black cloth shirt and a black leather jerkin. Sometimes it's obvious but often it isn't. Heck, I've even done it deliberately, where I want to look like I'm wearing an armor type that I'm not, so I wear leather-looking cloth armor for aesthetics, or leather with a lot of metal decorations. An icon could be better.

Noaani wrote: »

The system as Steven described it is literally taken directly out of Archeage - so I have years of experience with it. It would be better if we could see what players were wearing by looking at them.

Steven doesn't have to rip it off exactly. Did he say that he was copying it from Archeage directly? Or did his description just sound a lot like what Archeage did? Until we see how it works, you're just making an assumption. You have zero years of experience with what Ashes of Creation is doing, same with the rest of us.

HumblePuffin

@Atama there will be an indicator of the predominately worn armor type so people won’t be able to game the gearing system with cosmetics.

Steven said when you select someone, I personally think it should just be on all name plates.

I too much prefer this distinguishing factor compared to trying to check out each piece of gear someone has on to see if it all matches the easily distinguishable pieces. My eyes aren’t what they used to be.

Atama

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Steven said when you select someone, I personally think it should just be on all name plates.

Same. I think this would be ideal.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Steven said when you select someone, I personally think it should just be on all name plates.

Same. I think this would be ideal.

This is one of the solutions I offered up quite a while ago. If implemented, it would obviously need to be a customization option.

It isn't ideal, as it will result in a very messy UI, just to display information we should be able to garner from the game world itself. It also makes threat assessment on bunched up targets just as hard as if it were target only.

Basically, it is half way between target only icons for gear, and being able to identify gear type in game. It is far from ideal, but is better than nothing.

The reason I know the system as Steven described won't be good enough is because it doesn't at all address the actual issue - being able to tell multiple players armor type at the same time. In fact, the system as he described it still leaves you only able to assess one target at a time.

ShadonSol

Friendly reminder to stay on topic. Feel free to open another thread about threat evaluation.

Noaani

ShadonSol wrote: »

Friendly reminder to stay on topic. Feel free to open another thread about threat evaluation.

@ShadonSol

Threat evaluation is directly tied to the cosmetic shop, and peoples reasons for wanting a server without it - not that this will happen.

Talking about thread assessment in specific regards to gear identification is perfectly on topic in a thread where the topic is an alternate ruleset server where there is no cosmetic shop.

ShadonSol

Noaani wrote: »

ShadonSol wrote: »

Friendly reminder to stay on topic. Feel free to open another thread about threat evaluation.

@ShadonSol

Threat evaluation is directly tied to the cosmetic shop, and peoples reasons for wanting a server without it - not that this will happen.

Talking about thread assessment in specific regards to gear identification is perfectly on topic in a thread where the topic is an alternate ruleset server where there is no cosmetic shop.

No, since you can also glamour in-game achievable armor onto your equipped gear. This thread specifically talks about separate servers with a higher sub-fee and no in-game shop, not about threat assessment.

Noaani

ShadonSol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ShadonSol wrote: »

Friendly reminder to stay on topic. Feel free to open another thread about threat evaluation.

@ShadonSol

Threat evaluation is directly tied to the cosmetic shop, and peoples reasons for wanting a server without it - not that this will happen.

Talking about thread assessment in specific regards to gear identification is perfectly on topic in a thread where the topic is an alternate ruleset server where there is no cosmetic shop.

No, since you can also glamour in-game achievable armor onto your equipped gear. This thread specifically talks about separate servers with a higher sub-fee and no in-game shop, not about threat assessment.

So, what you are saying is that the cosmetic shop is simply a means to circumvent the need to obtain these cosmetic items in game?

Since that gives players an advantage, that makes it pay-to-win.

ShadonSol

@Noaani I wasn't stating anything - Just that the thread specifically talked about wanting to have specific servers without a cosmetic shop (thus being able to obtain all skins in-game I assume). The topic of threat assessment is much broader, so in order to discuss it properly, it has its own thread now. Hope that clarifies it

HumblePuffin

@Noaani in regards to your comment regarding “ However, Steven has already outright said no to that.”: I’m struggling to find a comment from Steven that says anything one way or another on what limitations there will be on transmog other than level for non cosmetic transmog.

Obviously cosmetic transmog can’t abide by the idea of cloth to cloth, plate to plate, since we already have a cosmetic where you get to play as an ice cube, but as far as weapons go it seems like a reasonable ask of them to make that transmog 1:1 since the weapons will most likely have for more variance to how they operate compared to armor.

Sounds like something worth asking at the next Q&A to get the wiki updated on that

Noaani

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Sounds like something worth asking at the next Q&A to get the wiki updated on that

Have at it, but the answer has been provided somewhere on these (or the old) forums.

Noaani

ShadonSol wrote: »

Noaani I wasn't stating anything - Just that the thread specifically talked about wanting to have specific servers without a cosmetic shop (thus being able to obtain all skins in-game I assume). The topic of threat assessment is much broader, so in order to discuss it properly, it has its own thread now. Hope that clarifies it

While the topic of threat assessment is much broader, the topic of gear in relation to thread assessment is not.

Since we do not yet know how in game cosmetics will work, but we do know how cash shop cosmetics will work as a single look covering up all armor visuals, it is 100% conceivable that a server with no cash shop will defacto result in players only able to appear in armor corresponding to the armor type being worn.

Such an assumption is about in line with the assumption that a no cash shop server would have all cosmetics earned in game - an assumption I would absolutely never make as it creates ongoing additional work for Intrepid in placing the items as rewards in game only for those specific servers.

Lithion

I'm not super knowledgeable on the topic, but do we know if they have said if we can have a setting to turn off other peoples cosmetics or not? I thought i remember them mentioning it in one of the livestreams. Like enable a setting so you see everyone's actual armor instead of skins... But then with transmog and stuff i feel like that wouldn't work either, and people wouldn't like that haha

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