Discussion; secondary class doesn't matter.

As far as I can tell, secondary classes do two things. They provide a list of adornments to spells and abilities of the primary class, and they are used to determine stats gained with each new level.

So, if our primary archetype will be where all of our base spells and abilities come from, and our secondary will provide those base spells and abilities with adornments we can select to apply, we can assume that the difference between a tank/tank and a tank/ranger will be almost entirely contained within the adornments each of these two classes have access to.

The thing is, we will gain access to more adornments as we adventure out in Verra.

In my experience playing MMO's, the best things are always the things that take the most time to get. If you apply this basic principle to these adornments, which group are likely to be better - the group of adornments you get as you level your character, or the group of adornments you actually spend time to gain access to?

Now, I admit I am making a few assumptions here - adornments found in the world will be based on primary archetype, not actual class is one assumption I am making.

What this says to me is that once players have spent time in Verra, once a large number of players have access to the ariety of adornments on offer outside of the class system, the bulk of players - those wanting to be the most effective at what they do at least - will likely all start using adornments on their spells and abilities that came from sources other than their secondary archetype.

If this is the case, if a tank/tank and a tank/ranger have the same spells and/or abilities selected, and the same adornments attached to them because they are the 'best' adornments, will there be any difference between a Guardian and a Warden?

Discuss!

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Warlocks do not Summon weapons.
Songcallers do not Summon weapons.
Falconers do not Summon weapons.

These are all fairly bold statements, with absolutely no basis or foundation.

Warlocks may indeed summon weapons, but they also may not. We do not know. What we do know is that classes with a summoner secondary may grant augmented skills that summon weapons.

There are indeed IP's out there in which a Warlock is able to summon weapons. D&D comes to mind.

It would be 100% within the scope of the class system for a warlock - which is a mage (elemental based magic) and a summoner secondary - to summon elemental wands, or perhaps a staff.

Even though we have no reason to assume this will be the case, we also literally have no reason at all to assume that this would not be the case.

As such, comments like the above are incredibly out of line.

I was also thinking that's quite the assumption. They have talked about summoning weapons but not being able to equip said summoned weapons. So I've been thinking that maybe this is how summoner direct damage abilities will work. By "summoning" a big axe or bow for a sweeping slash or ranged shot.
Probably more temporary than the summoned pets, but could still stuck around for a while. For example the bow is good for three shots before the ability goes on cooldown or something like that.

Dygz

SirChancelot wrote: »

They have said that different augment "schools" from a secondary archetype can have different effects for different primaries. So the summoning school of augments from a summoner could have a different effect on mage spells than it does for tank abilities.

They have also stated before that some augments could completely change an activated ability, but we haven't seen this yet.

If you're up for a read, I compiled a ton of augment/secondary info here

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51718/archetype-roles-i-swear-im-not-crazy/p1

I haven't re-visited your link, but...
What you wrote above is an excellent summary of the design.

Songcaller

Okay, I understand the scope and the fact it is theory with no actual footage, skills or pets to examine.

However,

In my mind, the Shaman Lifesteal Pets would offer no more than the equivalent of a health pot per tick. If you must know the concept comes from my BDO Fairy.

Songcaller

I also must state that Shaman lifestealers don't stack together and don't stack with health pots. Players under lifesteal Shaman pet regeneration can't use health pots either.

Reference for the healing parameters: Age of Conan.

Edit: interestingly, my mate posted a Conan gameplay video and when I searched for it both age of Conan came up and ashes of creation - it was the first time I discovered Ashes of Creation

Dygz

I doubt there will be a health pot restriction associated with Active Skills and augments.

Dygz

SirChancelot wrote: »

I was also thinking that's quite the assumption. They have talked about summoning weapons but not being able to equip said summoned weapons. So I've been thinking that maybe this is how summoner direct damage abilities will work. By "summoning" a big axe or bow for a sweeping slash or ranged shot.
Probably more temporary than the summoned pets, but could still stuck around for a while. For example the bow is good for three shots before the ability goes on cooldown or something like that.

Bladecallers will Summon blades.
Rangers already summon arrows.
Clerics already summon whips.

Songcaller

So far, the only constant stance you've maintained since my return is doubt. Yet you seem so certain of your shifting stances, so certain you always shift lol.

Dygz

It's not a shifting stance. It depends on the details.
The Cleric's Castigate whip is not a Summons.
But, when a Cleric casts Castigate, a whip appears.
Of course, we have to see if Castigate retains the appearance of a whip when Summoner augments are applied.
Most likely it will change to match the theme of a Shaman.

What I continue to doubt is what you mean by:
"Furthermore, even a summoner with all pets active will have summoned weapons available with the summoner augment."

Songcaller

You keep making statements about the cleric which is not a summoner. On top of that you keep referencing skills that are under combat upgrade. Neither I nor you know what has been changed since A1. Feedback and input at that time was not met with a constant moat, walls of texts and towers of ignorance by a digger.

Dygz

What you mean is a Cleric Primary Archetype is not a Summoner Primary Archetype.
When a Cleric casts Castigate, a whip appears.
When a Cleric casts Divine Censure, a spear appears.
So, if that's what you mean by "summoning" weapons, yes, Clerics can "summon" weapons. Rangers "summon" arrows.

A Shaman is a Cleric/Summoner.
When a Summoner augment is applied to Castigate, the appearance of Castigate will change - most likely to be a spirit, rather than a weapon.
When a Summoner augment is applied to Divine Censure, the appearance of Divine Censure will change - most likely to be a spirit, rather than a weapon.

When you say Summoner, there is no way to tell whether you are referring to the Summoner Primary Archetype or the Summoner Secondary Archetype.

Certainly, if a Summoner Primary Archetype has all of their non-augmented Summons active, if a Fighter augment is applied to a different Summoner Active Skill, we can expect blades to appear.
We should also expect blades to appear around a Summons if a Fighter augment is applied to a Summons Active Skill.

With Summoner/Summoner, we still have to learn whether Summoner Primary Archetype Summons weapons.
And we still have to learn what a Conjurer Conjures.

So...I'm waiting for you to provide the details of your concept:
"Even a summoner with all pets active will have summoned weapons available with the summoner augment."

Songcaller

I'm not sure why you are determined to waste my time. In fact, I could have written your response. It has been the same response since the debate began.

You have my concepts. I do not do skill rosters. I do not see why I alone must build my personal class, am I the only Shaman?

In all honesty, I want the concept built, tested, balanced and refined by people who either match my experience or have more experience than me.

I also want people who have never seen the unique concept before to give feedback when if it is seen.

Unlike you, I am not scared of change and I don't cling to the past. When Noanni gives me a reference (rare these days) I review the reference. When I give you a reference you ignore my input and decide to waste everyone's else's time.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

I was also thinking that's quite the assumption. They have talked about summoning weapons but not being able to equip said summoned weapons. So I've been thinking that maybe this is how summoner direct damage abilities will work. By "summoning" a big axe or bow for a sweeping slash or ranged shot.
Probably more temporary than the summoned pets, but could still stuck around for a while. For example the bow is good for three shots before the ability goes on cooldown or something like that.

Bladecallers will Summon blades.
Rangers already summon arrows.
Clerics already summon whips.

So what makes you so sure that other */summoner classes won't also summon weapons.

Keep in mind, you didn't say "we don't know if */summoner class will summon weapons or not. That would be a reasonable statement.

Rather, you said;

Dygz wrote: »

Warlocks do not Summon weapons.
Songcallers do not Summon weapons.
Falconers do not Summon weapons.

Which it seems has no actual basis or foundation.

Dygz

A reference to a class from a different game is mostly meaningless when it comes to Ashes classes.
Because Ashes classes are built from the Archetype combos.
Referencing classes from previous games is you clinging to the past rather than adhering to the changes the Ashes design presents.

I'm trying to understand how your concept fits with the Ashes game design.
But, if you don't want to explain how it fits with the Ashes game design, that's fine by me.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

A reference to a class from a different game is mostly meaningless when it comes to Ashes classes.
Because Ashes classes are built from the Archetype combos.
Referencing classes from previous games is you clinging to the past rather than adhering to the changes the Ashes design presents.

I'm trying to understand how your concept fits with the Ashes game design.
But, if you don't want to explain how it fits with the Ashes game design, that's fine by me.

I always find it amusing when people ask others to explain themselves in a thread where the person in question refuses to explain them self.

CROW3

I hope Bard/Summoners can summon up to 3 other instruments to form a band. Liverpool accents would be appreciated.

Songcaller

Dygz, the whole game is based on other games. This is my last entry here because I'm not about to deliver the components which you seem oblivious to. Clearly, you are just trying make issues when there are no issues.

I hope when we can ignore people in game heals and buffs aren't supplied to the ignored so that no more of my time will be wasted by you.

Dygz

I wonder whose intstruments will linger longer - Bard/Summoner or Summoner/Bard?
I think Bard/Summoner is more likely to be instruments and Summoner/Bard is more likely to be sirens/medusas.

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

Summoner/Bard is more likely to be sirens/medusas.

Or the Grateful Dead. 🤯

Dygz

I thought that was Necros?

Songcaller

Just need to place a restriction. It is in the highest interest to prevent both angelic and demonic Shaman Augments being used at the same time.

The two halves would be too potent combined. It would create a monster.

Cheers,
Neu.

Child Item