Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Had you read even just the title of the conversation you would understand that the conversation is about gear. Skill points and ability scores do not seem to be designed to offer quite as much power increase as gear in AoC and they also do not seem to be as exclusive.

🤦‍♂️

I agree.

VmanGman wrote: »

By your logic AoC needs to be a PvE game to satisfy the endless progression that PvE players ask for.

It does need to have a near endless progression path, but that does not mean it needs to be a PvE game.

Of all the things you listed that you claim can keep people in Ashes once they are at the level cap, the only one that isn't standard among all MMO's is sieges. Everything else combined together doesn't keep people in games

This isn't a great selling point - you are basically saying that once people reach the progression ceiling, they should stay in the game purely because they now have to fight to maintain what they have.

This will see most people stay in the game for a few months, may be up to 6, but no longer.

Most people want to play an MMO to progress.

If we are talking about people playing Ashes for a half decade or more (which is how long an MMO should be attempting to keep players), then progression is simply fundamental.

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

By your logic AoC needs to be a PvE game to satisfy the endless progression that PvE players ask for.

It does need to have a near endless progression path, but that does not mean it needs to be a PvE game.

Of all the things you listed that you claim can keep people in Ashes once they are at the level cap, the only one that isn't standard among all MMO's is sieges. Everything else combined together doesn't keep people in games

This isn't a great selling point - you are basically saying that once people reach the progression ceiling, they should stay in the game purely because they now have to fight to maintain what they have.

This will see most people stay in the game for a few months, may be up to 6, but no longer.

Most people want to play an MMO to progress.

If we are talking about people playing Ashes for a half decade or more (which is how long an MMO should be attempting to keep players), then progression is simply fundamental.

Guild Wars 2 has entered the chat. Come on man… are you even trying with these arguments?

AoC has more than enough content to keep players engaged beyond endless gear grinds.

VmanGman wrote: »

Guild Wars 2 has entered the chat.

How many times have you heard - even just on these forums - of people just getting bored with GW2 and leaving? Are you really trying to say that people do not leave GW2 due to there being no more progression to be had? Because that was the question...

Sure, there are a subset of players that find the progression paths offered in GW2 to be enough, and find enjoyment in other aspects of the game - but those players are not the type of player that would put up with open PvP, or with losing progression to a siege.

Ashes is targeting a specific type of MMO player. It is not a PvP only player (which seems to be what you think the game is about), and it is not a PvE only player. It is someone that is in between, that wants to play, and succeed, and do well in the game, and is willing to fight to hold on to what they have worked for.

In my experience, such players need a constant progression stream to maintain interest, and you are suggesting that be taken away.

This absolutely would leave Ashes as a PvP only game with no character progression. It literally may as well be a lobby based game at that point - a MOBA by a different name.

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Guild Wars 2 has entered the chat.

How many times have you heard - even just on these forums - of people just getting bored with GW2 and leaving? Are you really trying to say that people do not leave GW2 due to there being no more progression to be had? Because that was the question...

Sure, there are a subset of players that find the progression paths offered in GW2 to be enough, and find enjoyment in other aspects of the game - but those players are not the type of player that would put up with open PvP, or with losing progression to a siege.

Ashes is targeting a specific type of MMO player. It is not a PvP only player (which seems to be what you think the game is about), and it is not a PvE only player. It is someone that is in between, that wants to play, and succeed, and do well in the game, and is willing to fight to hold on to what they have worked for.

In my experience, such players need a constant progression stream to maintain interest, and you are suggesting that be taken away.

This absolutely would leave Ashes as a PvP only game with no character progression. It literally may as well be a lobby based game at that point - a MOBA by a different name.

My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there. Now add to that the fact that AoC has way more progression then GW2 AND the fact that it is a sandpark and you soon realize that there are plenty of people who will play even after they reach “BiS” (which in AoC won’t be easy at all and will not even be the focus of the game). You don’t understand what AoC is trying to be if you think that it’s designed for people who need to always be given a bigger carrot to chase (gear).

I absolutely do not think that AoC is targeting PvP or PvE only players. All I’m saying is that gear progression will not work the way you think it will and will not be as big of a focus as you seem to think it will be. This isn’t a game where everyone can just easily hunt down all their BiS pieces and be done. Not only will that be incredibly hard, but also there is way more that the game focuses on than just gear.

JamesSunderland

How impessive, what a immortal thread!

It amazes me to see that people are still trying to argue with someone as hard-headed and who lacks the minimum faith in the Ashes Team to properly balance gear power as our dear friend VmanGman.

Is mister VmanGman already able to escape the subjective Casual vs Hardcore Dichotomy idea or at the very least provide his own definitions?
Is he able to comprehend the concept of Time-efficient casuals and Time-inefficient hardcore players?
Has he coped with Steven's 40-50% character power influenced by gear or is he still stunlocked with his 20-30%?
Can he graps the concept of "meaningful gear progression in an MMORPG"?
Has him already acquired the "Saviour of the Casuals" Title?

VmanGman wrote: »

My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.

So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?

I think we also have to factor in gear acquisition from participating in Events plus Crafting, rather than assume that competive gear will only be acquired from tons of time repeating Dungeons and Raids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQ1Cve-bXE&t=885s
Mark 14:45

Steven: "I believe that Crafting will be up there with the epitome of world boss drops. But, I think the best Crafted items are going to involve some major accomplishments in theenvironment such as killing tose bosses and Gathering the materials necessary to create certain types of items."

Jeffrey: "Creafters will probably be creating a lot of Best in Slot items. The rarity of them will be comensurate with the effort to create them and also how good they actually are. We want Crafters to be the rock stars of items. That's what they're there for - that's what their intention is supposed to be."

Steven: "And they should be because our Crafting system is in-depth. I mean, it is a serious Crafting system."

Jeffrey: "I always get frustrated when I play a game and there's almost no point to Crafting. I mean, it's a fun ittle side project to do and you spend some money to do it and you make some weapons, but then you never use them? It's frustrating."

Steven: "Because I got some bound item from the dungeon so why should I ever need a Crafted item. It's like a worthless part of the game. So in our game, we wanted to bring Crafting, and the Economy in general, into the forefront of what a player experiences. And it brings a necessity for those types of players as well. We want a healthy blend of populations so we need to offerwhat Economy means to people who want to excel in it."

Also:
Steven: "Highest Tier items in game will be a combo of both crafted and boss dropped."

Dygz wrote: »

I think we also have to factor in gear acquisition from participating in Events plus Crafting, rather than assume that competive gear will only be acquired from tons of time repeating Dungeons and Raids.

While true - unless the plan is to hand out gear during such events at random, the better gear from such events is unlikely to go to casual players.

bloodprophet

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

By your logic AoC needs to be a PvE game to satisfy the endless progression that PvE players ask for.

It does need to have a near endless progression path, but that does not mean it needs to be a PvE game.

Of all the things you listed that you claim can keep people in Ashes once they are at the level cap, the only one that isn't standard among all MMO's is sieges. Everything else combined together doesn't keep people in games

This isn't a great selling point - you are basically saying that once people reach the progression ceiling, they should stay in the game purely because they now have to fight to maintain what they have.

This will see most people stay in the game for a few months, may be up to 6, but no longer.

Most people want to play an MMO to progress.

If we are talking about people playing Ashes for a half decade or more (which is how long an MMO should be attempting to keep players), then progression is simply fundamental.

Guild Wars 2 has entered the chat. Come on man… are you even trying with these arguments?

AoC has more than enough content to keep players engaged beyond endless gear grinds.

Garbage wars 2 was such a trash game I could not even get passed playing for 2 weeks before realizing what a shithole of a mess it is. I really really really hope they stay as far away from the lack of gear progression as GW2 has.

Page one paragraph one you wrote:

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

Since you won't give any kind of a hint as to what you think the difference between casual and hard core could in anyway possibly mean. Lets change the terms to average and top tier. If the average player 6 months in has average gear they would have gear power roughly 20-35% and a top tier player would have 40-45% and a few will eventually reach the 40-50% Intrepid are looking for. So the biggest difference is 20% roughly. Or are you expecting the "casuals" to cease any kind of gear progression and remain at the very bottom?

Like many here when I can no longer progress I will stop showing up. I don't RP. Fashion has very little meaning. Don't give a rats ass about in game politics(unless we are gonna go burn s town to the ground). If there is no combat challenge I will find someplace else to be. Many people are this way. A lot of people will go play Fashion Wars 2 and I say good for them. Ashes was never slated to be for the everyone get a trophy crowd and I hope it stays that way.

Out of morbid curiosity they have said they are balancing on a group of 8v8 with each archetype having a hard counter to a different archetype. Should this also be changed? What happens when someone gets beat by their hard counter? Maybe the gear difference will allow the less in this exchange to win where they normally would not.

Happymeal2415

Caww

Casuals will have to learn when not to fight and just let the other player take a corruption hit.

wait... have I seen that before...?

As will hardcores at the low end of gear disparity.

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.

So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?

Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression. I also stated that AoC has way more progression planned than GW2. So AoC would be just fine even without the endless progression that you claim it needs to have to be a PvX game.

Caww wrote: »

Casuals will have to learn when not to fight and just let the other player take a corruption hit.

wait... have I seen that before...?

The epitome of game design comes up again. Dygz and you are masterminds. This sounds like an incredibly good time and exactly the reason people log in to play. Can’t wait to see how much fun casuals will have to just sit there and take a beating because they know they can’t win.

Only in your mind.

bloodprophet

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.

So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?

Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression. I also stated that AoC has way more progression planned than GW2. So AoC would be just fine even without the endless progression that you claim it needs to have to be a PvX game.

I feel left out as you failed to answer my questions but ok.

GW2 is a success ONLY for casuals. Steven is working to build a game like the old school MMO's with challenge and everything. Hopefully Intrepid will stay the course and only give trophies to those that want them go out and earn them. Hopefully they leave the casuals in GW2.