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Let’s Talk Enchanting!

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  • @Nerror I see, it seems that we weren't really on the same page and misunderstood each other.
    There is no denying in my part, that some people will definitely quit because of getting rekt by RNG,
    the important part for me is how many especifically because of RNG alone and not other insanely more impactful reason like Monetization models and Terrible company management.

    As for the 3 "Sources" you provided sadly they seem barely relevant, A few Reddit threads with 23-31 comments and 31 to 45% upvotes just doesn't look very reliable....

    I would like to invite you, @Leiloni and whomever would be interested in the death of those games that people claimed were "Killed by RNG as its main Assassin in general" to if possible. watch the decently in-depth videos made by nerdSlayer, which is well known for his fair and reasonable investigations reletated to the reasons that caused the death of many games(mainly MMORPGs).

    Death of a Game: Tera
    Death of a Game: Lineage 2
    Death of a Game: Archeage
    Death of a Game: Aion
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 19
    Well, this one I'll definitely keep short.

    Other than item destruction, and speaking explicitly about items that are difficult to repair in some way, my concepts of 'harsh' are:

    1. Durability losses, which, eventually, will increase the cost of the item. I would tie these to 'the act of unslotting an enhancement' personally. The player's choice of how to deal with this is entirely interesting to me, then. The outcome is that if I get the 'wrong' enchant', I can still use it until I want a new better enchant. Or, I could decide to ditch this and pass off the item to someone else, so while the item is not destroyed, it's still gone from ME.

    2. I would prefer that individual enhancing items(or itemsets) are hard to obtain, and I don't mind as much if the RNG is in the obtaining (and the aforementioned possibility of getting the 'wrong' augment). So the harsh loss is actually 'attempting to use the item instead of just selling it to someone else', and then the augment being 'so far from your goals that you need to reroll it'.

    With regards to the risk vs reward thing, the above is actually an example. If enhancing items are rare, and I am risk-averse, I will always sell them. Players like me may also just always sell them. If Intrepid factors for this, great. If they 'think that the system is interesting or that needing to be second in line' will cause my behaviour to change, they'd be incorrect, so if anything, my point is that unless they're assuming 'risk averse players aren't even our audience so it's fine', they need to factor for all the people in this thread who would behave this way. (EDIT: That wasn't a point 3! Autopilot lol)

    I'll hope that they can come up with something that also accounts for risk-attuned players and rewards them exponentially. Being able to get exactly what you want instead of 'random enchant' through perseverance and luck will hopefully be a real boost to builds with specific goals.

    I wanna see some 'Personal Legendaries' so bad.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • I think the idea is great!
  • Now i better compreend your concept of harshness! Fair and reasonable points, IF the pool of augments is big enough, IF] the durability loss is big enough and IF the repair materials cost is high enough(include original scarcity of materials here), it could definitely straight up substitue the destruction as a RNG resource sinking avenue and be a reasonably harsh punishment at the same time!

    Always good to broaden my horizon of possibilities by talking to well articulated and reasonable people like you @Azherae .
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • I'll be honest think that enchanting in general in most games has been underappreciated. For instance in almost every game universally the whole point of enchanting is to basically just get stat increases, I honestly think that enchanting could be and should be far more interesting because of what it is for instance enchanting is the ability to magically infuse weapons with the arcane or to carve magical runes within an object like rune crafting. So what are you would really like is that enchanting not simply just boil down to stat increases and a shift in damage potential. Like oh I will get the strength and chancement with the fire enchantment and that'll be my new sword it just seems boring. What would be incredibly unique as enchanting giving the ability to give abilities to your armaments like giving a staff a one in every 2 hour ability to do a massively wide area effect of let's say a plague now it doesn't do massive amount of damage but in a boss fight with a bunch of ads this ability could help take care of some of the little minions maybe soften them up with the for the other teammates it's not going to be part of your usual rotation because it takes 2 hours to cool down. Other things would be something that's falling away from MMO enchantment is giving crafting bonuses or professional bonuses enchanting there's a gear that helps give you a 10% bonus will fishing or crafting or ironically enchanting things I would like to see a comeback for in the few games that still use them they are so incredibly underwhelming to the point of uselessness and most games just don't have them at all. Now the last point that I want to make is probably the more important one the ability to use enchantments to gear shift now most people probably don't know what gear shifting is anymore mostly because in a lot of games armor is locked into your class it has been for a long time now. But gear shifting is basically being able to enchant armor to fit your need but not it's standard. Let me explain imagine a warrior they've enchanted some leather armor instead of a plate mail because the plate male weighs them down a bit The warrior sacrificing a bit of defensive ability but they do not sacrifice their attack bonuses because of it and that's it that's the gear shift it's really simple and only vice versa and let's say the extreme version of this is let's take a necromancer now this necromancer has an enchanted a full set of plate armor that may slow them down but that's what the minions are for the armor itself is there to give this necromancer a defensive boost so that they can survive more than a hit attack it's things like that. That can make enchanting incredibly more interesting what are these other classes getting as a benefit by being able to be in like medium or heavy armor at their choosing other than light medium or heavy defensive stats or wait being lighter or heavier honestly not a lot cuz this mean that you can become a tanky wizard of course but it could also mean that you could become a robe wearing paladin who can smite things to dust while your robe flows in The wind. But yeah that's just my opinion I think I've given enough examples to get my idea across honestly I don't know if anyone will actually read all this and I do apologize for anybody who's gone through it and I've made some errors I am having to use speech to text I think I have gotten everything but I may have missed some things or a lot of things anyway take care have fun see you in game in alpha 2
  • oneuproadoneuproad Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited May 19

    Oh, smart move, fled away from the enchanting system being the only executioner of the game to it being its hardcore systems overall...

    All mmorpgs were "the game of nolifers" pal people still have this approach to mmorpgs even till this day and age, but you definitely have a point in people fleeing L2 for easier games, but completely disregarding L2's downfall starting at the same year of the introduction of their cash shop is just disingenuous.

    Appealing to personal experience just doesn't do the trick, if L2's downfall started with the introduction of thei enchant system that could make sense, but as it currently stands, might aswell do a Narc reference with something along the lines of "If you think L2's enchament system was its downfall perpetrator, you're probably just too high on copium." :D

    I am sorry, I often forget that people need to have a perfect coursework put into their mouth to have an idea.

    L2 was a loop of unforgiving problems.

    Endless repetetive grind (was bareable because needed group) → you grind the same item over and over and over and over again (or as you say backups) → You essentially walk the same path forever → Then the RNG will decide if you can take a step further, back a bit or you go back to the beginning (succeed, drop a level, destruction). This was pretty much L2 in a roughened up picture, with some amazing ideas, systems on the side. I cannot imagine why and how would I have kept playing L2 if it was not for it is PvP aspects and how it was made.

    The only reason why the whole system of L2 content was easy to deal with, was because of how the social aspect of the game was interconnected with it. I can guarantee you, Ashes will fail as an appeal to the mass if we get the loop of L2. Just think why WoW exploded and killed every MMO at its finest.

    Now you can add your cashshop on top of this and it will deal the final bow. But cashshop is subjective, while game content is something you will face. At least I have not seen a player in my MMO experience who has not tried progressing their character. (seen a few actual crazy crafters, but even they progressed). Aion had basically no cash shop early on, yet it still started to decline quite rapidly at one point, because of it is unforgiving systems, it was basically a "been here, done that, I rather leave" situation. A good game that appeals to the mass will be played with or without cash shop, but a bad game will die out eventually regardless of cash shop.

    As I have said before, we have an insane accumulated knowledge and experience of the past.

  • oneuproadoneuproad Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited May 19
    NiKr wrote: »

    I have been out because exams, I'll not quote everything just add an accumulated answer.

    To find a middle ground, as long as item destruction (as in complete removal from the game due to failed enhance) is not present at all other than you yourself dismantling it. I personally think RNG is fine, just like crafting has a proc rate to it. The main problem with destruction is that it is just devastating to many of the playerbase, and since we have experienced better this so called "many" would rather avoid it. Now obviously f*ck people who think they should be provided the same to their 2 hours of gameplay compared to someone who puts 8 hours a day at all times. But theoritically if there is an end, the 2 hours person should catch up at one point in time. When this so called "many" caught up, that is when expansion comes into the picture. But the point, what you mentioned also, that those that play 8 hours will always have the upper hand (should have at least...) because of their hours put in, so their expertise at the game is just much more refined. That is what will forever draw the line between casual and hardcore (though there are always exceptions... on both sides sadly)

    I am not sure how Alpha1 crafting was related to L2 crafting, as to me honestly it did not seem like anything. It was just a basic placeholder. Apart from the caravan that basically is AA's tradepack system, which was I think still the BEST feature of any MMORPG. Or you maybe talk about Tier2 crafting needed Tier1 mats, then Tier3 crafting needing Tier2 mats (but I am sure this was not showcased in Alpha1?). That was a thing in ArcheAge as well.

    OE sounds fine, if you add a pity system to it. I just cannot stress enough how devastating it is to be behind the curve because you are simply UNLUCKY (Yes I am pointing at my past gaming experience). I still remember in BDO this guy who was trying to get a certain enhance level of necklace, and he just could not. So he decided to farm the money for it (at this time game was out for year+ already). Then his friend who just joined the game one-clicked the enhancing all the way to this desired necklace, like tell me how is this "good game design". Also this guy who wanted the necklace just quit the game after, just to reinforce my people do quit over failing. Or there was this guild member of mine, who could not get a 35% success rate item in over 100+ tries, I repeat again do you think this is "good game design".

    I again cannot stress enough how important is it to appeal to the mass. I have been to both sides, the one that wakes up, plays, goes to sleep then repeat, and the group with 2-3 hours a day gametime. When you are in the 2nd, you question if your time input is worth in the long run (also this is where cashshop comes into the picture, but we don't discuss that). That is why having a definite end is appealing, then you add all the horizontal, side content and it will result in a happy player.

    What I personally hope for the game is the absolute complete freedom of choice feeling, like I had in AA 1.0. In that game I literally logged in with no necessary plan for the gametime and even with a goal set in mind I could do anything I wanted at moments time, it just did not matter. And on top everything somewhat had hardship to it until you work was paying off and it was becoming progressively easier (as it should be).
  • oneuproad wrote: »
    I am sorry, I often forget that people need to have a perfect coursework put into their mouth to have an idea.

    I know right? Its a sad reality that demonstrates the limits of one's comprehension potential...
    oneuproad wrote: »
    L2 was a loop of unforgiving problems.

    Endless repetetive grind (was bareable because needed group) → you grind the same item over and over and over and over again (or as you say backups) → You essentially walk the same path forever → Then the RNG will decide if you can take a step further, back a bit or you go back to the beginning (succeed, drop a level, destruction). This was pretty much L2 in a roughened up picture, with some amazing ideas, systems on the side. I cannot imagine why and how would I have kept playing L2 if it was not for it is PvP aspects and how it was made.

    "Endless repetetive grind"
    Yep, definitely a term i would associate with not only Lineage 2 but probably the absolute majority of MMORPGs

    "you grind the same item over and over and over and over again (or as you say backups)"
    Only on the very very end game which very few people would reach considering how hard and how long leveling took and how scarce materials/gear were in lineage 2 old days, very few people would over enchant stuff and it became more of a thing in later versions of the game as the game became easier and easier and the cash shop became crazier and crazier as time went by.

    "You essentially walk the same path forever"
    Not really at all, Lack of people to farm a certain grind spot, the pvp aspect of the game would force different "paths" everytime, may it be competition for grindspots, a shift in priority or a shift in the value of items farmed there and many otehr things would change "your path".

    You certainly wasn't joking when you said it was a "roughened up picture" of the game. :D
    And i have to agree with you that Lineage 2's PvP was by far its greatest selling point nnot just for me and you but for the majority of players, as the PvE aspect of the game was pretty limited
    oneuproad wrote: »
    The only reason why the whole system of L2 content was easy to deal with, was because of how the social aspect of the game was interconnected with it. I can guarantee you, Ashes will fail as an appeal to the mass if we get the loop of L2. Just think why WoW exploded and killed every MMO at its finest.

    Now you can add your cashshop on top of this and it will deal the final bow. But cashshop is subjective, while game content is something you will face. At least I have not seen a player in my MMO experience who has not tried progressing their character. (seen a few actual crazy crafters, but even they progressed). Aion had basically no cash shop early on, yet it still started to decline quite rapidly at one point, because of it is unforgiving systems, it was basically a "been here, done that, I rather leave" situation. A good game that appeals to the mass will be played with or without cash shop, but a bad game will die out eventually regardless of cash shop.

    As I have said before, we have an insane accumulated knowledge and experience of the past.

    If the L2 game loop "roughened up picture" you gave, truly was the way you tried to summarize, i have no doubt at all that Ashes would fail. If that was your experience with Lineage 2, i genuinely feel sorry for you.

    Lineage 2 was far from being a perfect game, it had many flaws, but it's enchanting system certainly wasn't one of its dramatic downfall motives.

    I would recommend you to watch both Death of a Game: Lineage 2 and Death of a Game: Aion videos i mentioned in the first post of this page 8 if you are still adamant in the idea that the enchanting system was the main factor that killed those games and not cash shop or even WAY bigger factors.

    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member
    edited May 19
    One thing I want to point out, aside from the feedback I've already given is that how much of a bonus you get per enchant is very important. In games like Aion you got massive bonuses for enchanting so a +10 vs a +0 was insane, and even a +15 vs a +10 was a huge difference. But that's just on the same weapon and not everyone had that top tier weapon because of the grind involved, so the average player would often be using level 40 PvP stuff instead of the level 50 set, so that just added to the imbalance making the power gap even worse.

    If we're talking enchanting in Ashes, let's also talk about the power gained per enchant level and the total number of possible enchants because that's perhaps more important than the methods. I do not want more than a tiny single digit percentage difference in total between 0 enchants and max because then you start to have massive player power differences which exacerbates the already existing gear/skill imbalances in PvP between casual/hardcore.

    Edit: Some references points:

    You get +4 Min and Max damage per level of enchant, up to +15 (+10 being "safe" in the sense that failure doesn't decrease enchant levels, and +11-+15 a failure sends it back to +10).


    So here's the level 40 and level 50 PvP weapon to see those min/max numbers.

    So power increase totals come out to:

    - 21% increase in power from +0 to +10 on a level 40 weapon and 18% on level 50
    - 32% in total to go to +15 on a 40 weapon vs 27% for level 50 weapon
    - 13.5% extra power for a +10 level 50 vs a +10 level 40 weapon. That's 31 extra power which is the equivalent of 8 extra enchant levels. However some of these players got their weapons higher than that.

    Due to the insane amount of effort required either in grind time or gold spent to get a level 50 weapon, only the most hardcore had that while the level cap was 50, so many average players only had a level 40 weapon until the expansion came out. This was also heavily based on your faction's ability to win forts on your server. So many players were running around with a 13.5% or more (if their weapon was +15) power advantage over their fellow players.

    These numbers are absolutely unacceptable and I do not want to see them in Ashes.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Leiloni wrote: »
    One thing I want to point out, aside from the feedback I've already given is that how much of a bonus you get per enchant is very important. In games like Aion you got massive bonuses for enchanting so a +10 vs a +0 was insane, and even a +15 vs a +10 was a huge difference. But that's just on the same weapon and not everyone had that top tier weapon because of the grind involved, so the average player would often be using level 40 PvP stuff instead of the level 50 set, so that just added to the imbalance making the power gap even worse.

    If we're talking enchanting in Ashes, let's also talk about the power gained per enchant level and the total number of possible enchants because that's perhaps more important than the methods. I do not want more than a tiny single digit percentage difference in total between 0 enchants and max because then you start to have massive player power differences which exacerbates the already existing gear/skill imbalances in PvP between casual/hardcore.

    Edit: Some references points:

    You get +4 Min and Max damage per level of enchant, up to +15 (+10 being "safe" in the sense that failure doesn't decrease enchant levels, and +11-+15 a failure sends it back to +10).


    So here's the level 40 and level 50 PvP weapon to see those min/max numbers.

    So power increase totals come out to:

    - 21% increase in power from +0 to +10 on a level 40 weapon and 18% on level 50
    - 32% in total to go to +15 on a 40 weapon vs 27% for level 50 weapon
    - 13.5% extra power for a +10 level 50 vs a +10 level 40 weapon. That's 31 extra power which is the equivalent of 8 extra enchant levels. However some of these players got their weapons higher than that.

    Due to the insane amount of effort required either in grind time or gold spent to get a level 50 weapon, only the most hardcore had that while the level cap was 50, so many average players only had a level 40 weapon until the expansion came out. This was also heavily based on your faction's ability to win forts on your server. So many players were running around with a 13.5% or more (if their weapon was +15) power advantage over their fellow players.

    These numbers are absolutely unacceptable and I do not want to see them in Ashes.

    While I understand that this is very subjective, I have 'run your numbers' against multiple PvE and PvP scenarios (basically all the ones from the combat systems I can extrapolate from the design goals discussed and shown in Alpha-1 and on forums).

    I can't see exactly why this is a concern relative to enchanting. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm actually asking for the preconditions, because it doesn't look like the problem is with the numbers on the gear enchant, it looks like the problems with these numbers are in a different part of the design. Now, those design parts are common, but they're not required.

    So please elaborate for me what your concern is, you were talking about wanting small differences in the enchant power, but the data you gave indicates that the problem was entirely with the leveling curve and the power gap between top level gear. Enchanting/enhancing didn't seem to be the problem at all?

    So I'm just checking if you're still talking about problems that enhancing causes, or giving general feedback on the power gaps and power scaling between levels.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    oneuproad wrote: »
    I am not sure how Alpha1 crafting was related to L2 crafting, as to me honestly it did not seem like anything. It was just a basic placeholder. Apart from the caravan that basically is AA's tradepack system, which was I think still the BEST feature of any MMORPG. Or you maybe talk about Tier2 crafting needed Tier1 mats, then Tier3 crafting needing Tier2 mats (but I am sure this was not showcased in Alpha1?). That was a thing in ArcheAge as well.
    Yeah, it's the usage of low tier stuff in the high tier crafting and this crafting window. That looks exactly like the stuff you'd see when crafting in L2.
    oneuproad wrote: »
    I repeat again do you think this is "good game design".
    Yeah, it's definitely not good, even if I personally like it.
    oneuproad wrote: »
    What I personally hope for the game is the absolute complete freedom of choice feeling, like I had in AA 1.0. In that game I literally logged in with no necessary plan for the gametime and even with a goal set in mind I could do anything I wanted at moments time, it just did not matter. And on top everything somewhat had hardship to it until you work was paying off and it was becoming progressively easier (as it should be).
    Same, hope everyone can do whatever they want in the game and still feel some sense of achievement and contribution to the greater cause.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Please god no enhancing like BDO and Lost ark it is one of the worst things in the world. Reasons i mean

    1. No fun gear chase of finding new weapons and gear as drops. You lose the excitement of a cool legendary sword and its replaced with a gambling system.
    2. Constant gambling every day trying to scavenge whatever resources you can to keep gambling over and over.
    3. One of the reasons why a lot of people and casual (Casual people that play consistently just not hardcore hours) end up quitting and have no reason to come back.
    4. When your gear progression becomes mostly gambling every day you lose that mmorpg feeling.

    *** Not saying enchancing shouldn't be there in some form, maybe its a very rare material you get and had a 5-40% chance to succeed. Its not something you do every day it is a once in awhile thing as a rare drop. With a gear increase of 5-25%.

    *** Please no weapon blowing up, if you really want to make theg ear chase longer just set it so you only have a set amount of chances to enchance on a piece of gear. aka you get 3 attempts then you have to find or create another piece of gear to try again.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Just to further push my point BDO player base is very shallow for a lot of reasons, and it also has enchancing where your GEAR BLOWS up.

    Elyon your gear blows up and goes bye bye. ELYON IS A DEAD MMORPG.

    Lost ark your gear doesn't blow up it has rng and eventually succeeds 100%. People disliked the rng and the bad points, if gear blew up in that game it be a dead game. Another bad point is the staggered enhancing and how they do gameplay makes it hard to play with your friends like you actually can't sometimes. Feels like im playing single player half the time without anything to do after doing the weekly content.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    One thing I want to point out, aside from the feedback I've already given is that how much of a bonus you get per enchant is very important. In games like Aion you got massive bonuses for enchanting so a +10 vs a +0 was insane, and even a +15 vs a +10 was a huge difference. But that's just on the same weapon and not everyone had that top tier weapon because of the grind involved, so the average player would often be using level 40 PvP stuff instead of the level 50 set, so that just added to the imbalance making the power gap even worse.

    If we're talking enchanting in Ashes, let's also talk about the power gained per enchant level and the total number of possible enchants because that's perhaps more important than the methods. I do not want more than a tiny single digit percentage difference in total between 0 enchants and max because then you start to have massive player power differences which exacerbates the already existing gear/skill imbalances in PvP between casual/hardcore.

    Edit: Some references points:

    You get +4 Min and Max damage per level of enchant, up to +15 (+10 being "safe" in the sense that failure doesn't decrease enchant levels, and +11-+15 a failure sends it back to +10).


    So here's the level 40 and level 50 PvP weapon to see those min/max numbers.

    So power increase totals come out to:

    - 21% increase in power from +0 to +10 on a level 40 weapon and 18% on level 50
    - 32% in total to go to +15 on a 40 weapon vs 27% for level 50 weapon
    - 13.5% extra power for a +10 level 50 vs a +10 level 40 weapon. That's 31 extra power which is the equivalent of 8 extra enchant levels. However some of these players got their weapons higher than that.

    Due to the insane amount of effort required either in grind time or gold spent to get a level 50 weapon, only the most hardcore had that while the level cap was 50, so many average players only had a level 40 weapon until the expansion came out. This was also heavily based on your faction's ability to win forts on your server. So many players were running around with a 13.5% or more (if their weapon was +15) power advantage over their fellow players.

    These numbers are absolutely unacceptable and I do not want to see them in Ashes.

    While I understand that this is very subjective, I have 'run your numbers' against multiple PvE and PvP scenarios (basically all the ones from the combat systems I can extrapolate from the design goals discussed and shown in Alpha-1 and on forums).

    I can't see exactly why this is a concern relative to enchanting. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm actually asking for the preconditions, because it doesn't look like the problem is with the numbers on the gear enchant, it looks like the problems with these numbers are in a different part of the design. Now, those design parts are common, but they're not required.

    So please elaborate for me what your concern is, you were talking about wanting small differences in the enchant power, but the data you gave indicates that the problem was entirely with the leveling curve and the power gap between top level gear. Enchanting/enhancing didn't seem to be the problem at all?

    So I'm just checking if you're still talking about problems that enhancing causes, or giving general feedback on the power gaps and power scaling between levels.

    Maybe you missed this part. Including the weapons is important because it gives context to exactly how much +4 power per enchant level really is in that game. It's the overall percentage increases that people look for. So here -

    - 21% increase in power from +0 to +10 on a level 40 weapon and 18% on level 50
    - 32% in total to go to +15 on a 40 weapon vs 27% for level 50 weapon

    Your best case scenario as a casual player with exactly the same gear and a +10 enchant vs a hardcore with the +15 is you're still about 10% less powerful than them. A +0 weapon vs a +15 fully enchanted weapon is a 30% increase. If those numbers don't make your blood boil, then no argument is going to get through to you. This is the sort of enchant system balance that I do not want in Ashes. Enchanting to safe shouldn't give you more than 5% total increase with Overenchanting giving maybe another 1-2%.
  • EldanEldan Member
    First of all there should be absolutely no loss of progression for attempting an enchantment (looking at you BDO). There is absolutely nothing more likely to make a player quit than loss of progression.

    Second, instead of having a system where an enchantment costs almost nothing, but the success chance is very low I think it would be much more enjoyable and less likely to cause burn out to have a system where the success chance is high, but the materials are rare or hard to produce. The higher the enchanting level the rarer /harder to make the materials should be.
    For example, for the highest levels of enchanting the materials should be obtained in highest difficulty raids and/or life skills with very high mastery.
    The enchanting materials should be tradeable to encourage player interraction and give players who don't want to/can't do the content a chance of obtaining those items for a high monetary cost.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    One thing I want to point out, aside from the feedback I've already given is that how much of a bonus you get per enchant is very important. In games like Aion you got massive bonuses for enchanting so a +10 vs a +0 was insane, and even a +15 vs a +10 was a huge difference. But that's just on the same weapon and not everyone had that top tier weapon because of the grind involved, so the average player would often be using level 40 PvP stuff instead of the level 50 set, so that just added to the imbalance making the power gap even worse.

    If we're talking enchanting in Ashes, let's also talk about the power gained per enchant level and the total number of possible enchants because that's perhaps more important than the methods. I do not want more than a tiny single digit percentage difference in total between 0 enchants and max because then you start to have massive player power differences which exacerbates the already existing gear/skill imbalances in PvP between casual/hardcore.

    Edit: Some references points:

    You get +4 Min and Max damage per level of enchant, up to +15 (+10 being "safe" in the sense that failure doesn't decrease enchant levels, and +11-+15 a failure sends it back to +10).


    So here's the level 40 and level 50 PvP weapon to see those min/max numbers.

    So power increase totals come out to:

    - 21% increase in power from +0 to +10 on a level 40 weapon and 18% on level 50
    - 32% in total to go to +15 on a 40 weapon vs 27% for level 50 weapon
    - 13.5% extra power for a +10 level 50 vs a +10 level 40 weapon. That's 31 extra power which is the equivalent of 8 extra enchant levels. However some of these players got their weapons higher than that.

    Due to the insane amount of effort required either in grind time or gold spent to get a level 50 weapon, only the most hardcore had that while the level cap was 50, so many average players only had a level 40 weapon until the expansion came out. This was also heavily based on your faction's ability to win forts on your server. So many players were running around with a 13.5% or more (if their weapon was +15) power advantage over their fellow players.

    These numbers are absolutely unacceptable and I do not want to see them in Ashes.

    While I understand that this is very subjective, I have 'run your numbers' against multiple PvE and PvP scenarios (basically all the ones from the combat systems I can extrapolate from the design goals discussed and shown in Alpha-1 and on forums).

    I can't see exactly why this is a concern relative to enchanting. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm actually asking for the preconditions, because it doesn't look like the problem is with the numbers on the gear enchant, it looks like the problems with these numbers are in a different part of the design. Now, those design parts are common, but they're not required.

    So please elaborate for me what your concern is, you were talking about wanting small differences in the enchant power, but the data you gave indicates that the problem was entirely with the leveling curve and the power gap between top level gear. Enchanting/enhancing didn't seem to be the problem at all?

    So I'm just checking if you're still talking about problems that enhancing causes, or giving general feedback on the power gaps and power scaling between levels.

    Maybe you missed this part. Including the weapons is important because it gives context to exactly how much +4 power per enchant level really is in that game. It's the overall percentage increases that people look for. So here -

    - 21% increase in power from +0 to +10 on a level 40 weapon and 18% on level 50
    - 32% in total to go to +15 on a 40 weapon vs 27% for level 50 weapon

    Your best case scenario as a casual player with exactly the same gear and a +10 enchant vs a hardcore with the +15 is you're still about 10% less powerful than them. A +0 weapon vs a +15 fully enchanted weapon is a 30% increase. If those numbers don't make your blood boil, then no argument is going to get through to you. This is the sort of enchant system balance that I do not want in Ashes. Enchanting to safe shouldn't give you more than 5% total increase with Overenchanting giving maybe another 1-2%.

    I think I might have come off too accusatory somehow?

    I don't disagree with any of your numbers. But your numbers seem to be saying 'enhancing is more effective on Level 40 weapons than on level 50 weapons. That's moreso a catch-up help, to me?

    The casual player isn't in trouble because their level 40 weapon 'isn't pulling its weight' for a level 40 weapon. It actually gets more out of enchanting than the level 50. The 'problem' is that level 50 weapons just outclass them, which is a question of 'should you get big rewards for leveling'.

    If you prefer, we can ignore all that part and address only this part:

    Your best case scenario as a casual player with exactly the same gear and a +10 enchant vs a hardcore with the +15 is you're still about 10% less powerful than them. A +0 weapon vs a +15 fully enchanted weapon is a 30% increase.

    Now it's a question of how hard enhancing is, but if 1-10 is easy and 10-15 is hard, and the increase is 'only' 10% difference, I personally don't have a problem with it, in games with high TTK and forced error options. The same thing would happen, for example, if both players had the exact same gear but one player had 10% more HP than the other (through any source) assuming the game doesn't contain a LOT of healing items on really short cooldowns, or something.

    I'm trying to say that the problems don't exist in the weapon strength gap, but in the combat and item design outside of that, so trying to fix it by limiting the power gap on enchants won't actually fix it, people will find some other way of 'abusing' the same flaws in combat and item design.

    Whereas in an MMO, gear power gaps are part of the play situation, because people like progression, and afaik, many people actually RESPECT progression too, though obviously less so when the player is stabbing you in the face and you have no chance of winning.

    So to 'reflect' a bit... it's bad combat systems that make my blood boil, not 10% power gaps, because 10% power gaps don't mean anything on their own, they're very close to both 'standard' and 'basically required' for most better combat (in an MMO where gear is supposed to determine success to some extent).

    Hope that clarifies, if not, and this post also comes off to you to be the same as the last one, I'll just disengage.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Eldan wrote: »
    First of all there should be absolutely no loss of progression for attempting an enchantment....

    Where's the risk vs reward element, then?

    I wouldn't quit because something down-graded when when taking a chance on getting it up-graded. It might steam me for a couple of days, but I knew the risk, going in. Gearing is fun and all - but it shouldn't be the only reason to play a game.

    Some folks just want 1+1=2 - but players like yours truly have always found it more fun if there's an element of chance or risk.



  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Eldan wrote: »
    First of all there should be absolutely no loss of progression for attempting an enchantment....

    Where's the risk vs reward element, then?

    I wouldn't quit because something down-graded when when taking a chance on getting it up-graded. It might steam me for a couple of days, but I knew the risk, going in. Gearing is fun and all - but it shouldn't be the only reason to play a game.

    Some folks just want 1+1=2 - but players like yours truly have always found it more fun if there's an element of chance or risk.




    In games where the enchanting material is hard to get, the risk is 'losing the materials instead of selling them for guaranteed profit to someone else who will most likely just lose them'.

    This is an effective form of economic PvP as well. If I know someone is the type to try to 'keep going on their Enchant until they get it', but they have low capacity for success, I'll hoard the materials, and sell them to that person when they're in the middle of a fail-flow and will pay me more just to 'try to get that hit'.

    In games where the enchanting material drops randomly from every mob in the game like some sort of shiny candy token, it is completely valid to say that there's no real risk.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member
    Eldan wrote: »
    First of all there should be absolutely no loss of progression for attempting an enchantment....

    Where's the risk vs reward element, then?

    I wouldn't quit because something down-graded when when taking a chance on getting it up-graded. It might steam me for a couple of days, but I knew the risk, going in. Gearing is fun and all - but it shouldn't be the only reason to play a game.

    Some folks just want 1+1=2 - but players like yours truly have always found it more fun if there's an element of chance or risk.




    Can you really call something a risk if you don't have a choice not to do it? Enchanting isn't going to be something anyone can avoid doing simply because they might risk losing an enchant level for failing. Sure doing the Overenchant which risks gear breaking is avoidable, but nothing up until that point. So I'm not sure the risk vs reward design element really has a huge place in a system with no choice. Risk vs reward is only a good design when the player has a true choice to avoid the risk.
  • Leiloni wrote: »
    Can you really call something a risk if you don't have a choice not to do it? Enchanting isn't going to be something anyone can avoid doing simply because they might risk losing an enchant level for failing. Sure doing the Overenchant which risks gear breaking is avoidable, but nothing up until that point. So I'm not sure the risk vs reward design element really has a huge place in a system with no choice. Risk vs reward is only a good design when the player has a true choice to avoid the risk.

    Wouldn't you consider saving/selling resources that could be used to over-enchant, to buy an already over enchanted item a choice?
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • GizmowGizmow Member
    Based on my experience with enchanting systems, people like it to be balanced but rewarding. Lots of games (especially F2P) go the vertical route of i.e. +1-9. Generally the higher tiers have a low chance of success and a chance to destroy the item. The reason F2P games do this, is because there is usually an item in the cash shop that mitigates the risk of the item destroying. With a cash shop being in Ashes (only cosmetic, I know), if this model is followed, people will start to demand that item be sold in the Cash Shop.

    If the "over enchanting" route is taken there is usually a risk of destruction or degradation involved. This can be frustrating when applying to legendary or unique artifact gear.

    One system I have always thought would be cool is a slider based system. This wouldn't matter too much at lower levels, but around like +6, it could start using a slider bar. If you move the bar down, it uses less materials, has a higher chance of success, but also the enchant isn't as good. If you slide the bar up, it uses more materials, has a lower chance of success and the enchant becomes better, perhaps with some powerful bonuses at higher levels, things like (On use mechanics, Bound to Character and can't be looted by other players (except at higher levels of corruption), chances for extra attacks, chance of resurrection on death) powerful but rare enchantment bonuses. This would keep players enchanting to try and get better bonuses on gear. There could also be critical failures that could make the weapon unusable/can't be enchanted/applies a debuff when used, for a period of time.

    As far as failure goes, I think losing the materials is enough, especially if the material cost scales with the attempt. Weapon destruction, or degradation is unnecessary, as players will probably just sell the items that don't end up with the enchants they want. Being able to use rare items or items that are crafted by other professions (based on the type of item being enchanted) could reduce the chance for critical failure, but no item should exist for critical success or bonus enchants, as those should be a complete surprise and feel like a gift from the gods.
  • DezzRevasDezzRevas Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    In that world, Blacksmiths use Runes to Enchant items. That caused me to wonder if Dünir might be more likely to be Blacksmiths, while Niküa are more likely to be Runesmiths.

    Niküa are most likely going to have ship building buffs from the lore and style that we have from them now. However the Empyrean Elves, we are more likely to have enchanting bonuses. We are the more magically inclined race after all.

    Eazle wrote: »
    Basically, these are my thoughts, DO NOT BREAK gear. Just don't and don't let RNG decide everything. However, I understand we need a negative sink. So let me paint the system I have in mind.


    Solution:

    Enchanting should be fun, enjoyable, and part of the world. So minor enchants shouldn't really have any negative downfalls other than failed attempts with a cooldown on the item.

    I totally agree with this 100%. When enchanting, even with over enchanting the items should never break. The materials can be lost and the item on cool down to try again but breaking is way too much. You will make a system that only the richest players will take the risk, making it not worth working toward. A mini game where player skill is needed would be preferable to any rng mechanic.

    Eazle wrote: »
    The questline drags us through the world acquiring special materials, defeating difficult bosses, completing raids, and more. Upon reaching the end of the questline, we go to one of the special alters for our enchant. Each alters has a different set of enchanting stats available, so players can do different sets of builds.

    A good way to make the tiers of crafting meaningful is to have a quest line for each tier to make the accomplishment that much more meaningful. I do not agree with giving everyone access to enchanting alters or you remove the need for the artisan skill. I also don't see someone giving you their item for a week or two while you complete this quest to enchant the item, this would cause countless issues.

    Eazle wrote: »
    Sinks are important for the end game, but disguising them with intent, direction, and possibilities is far more important. Because blatantly breaking the item on failed attempt without a clue to why is just insulting.

    Final Thoughts:
    Having RNG is not inherently bad. But it's how it's been implemented into the game that makes it bad. Nobody wants a slot machine to be the reason they lost a powerful item. But end-game can't be easily obtainable either. Sinks are needed here, but hiding those sinks within lore, story, quests, and player interaction is how you handle the situation. Not smacking the dice roll and hoping. Give the player a better system by implementing ritual classes and enchanters needed to help with the questline. That way it takes a true effort in acquiring. Give failure an opportunity to turn into success next time. Leaving the player empty-handed without a reason other than RNG is just bad design.

    The sentiments here I fully agree with 100%. I can also understand to a point how it might be important to make a system where there are truly unique opportunities to show ones prowess in their chosen artisan skill. Making the system with risk that is meaningful, I suppose a system that makes it that anyone with enough time can achieve the best might not have the impact. It's a hard dilemma to overcome for sure, either way there will be a group unhappy.
    NiKr wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    First, I'd like enchanting to provide additional connection / synergy with my secondary archetype. If a class augment focuses on bleeds, I'd like my weapon enchants to amplify those effects. If my augments provide a certain defensive capability (i.e. v/bleeds) I'd like my armor enchants to help extend that protection. It would also be cool if enchants could also interact with the environment.
    I feel like getting some kind of a rune stone as a reward in all the augment sources, with an ability to combine those stones into one that enhances your gear in the same way your augments do to your character, would be great. And let us move that rune stone with us through the gear tiers.

    So at lvl 25 you'd get your main "class" rune and then with each additional augment from religion/social stuff/other sources you'd add effects onto this rune. So by the end of your character progress, your gear will reflect your lifestyle.

    Alternatively those rune stones could also give us a chance to add another school of augment from those sources, which would broaden our abilities, but I'm not sure if that's really feasible and/or even desirable.

    These are both interesting ideas as long as they don't overshadow the artisan system.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    edited May 20
    -As far as Vertical improvements go Keep them straight forward and simple. Let these be permanent and have a strong effect since they also carry a high risk for them. Also be sure to give them a high cost for materials and make use of materials from all tiers to maintain viability for gathering of those materials and their worth.

    -Horizontal improvements would likely be better as temporary enchants with lower tier material requirements, allowing for a material sink and constant service to be provided. These would be less costly and little to no risk. As far as times for duration, maybe it could depend on the enchantment level, the amount of materials, or just be flat rates ranging from 1 hour to 24 hours. This would also make sense since these would likely be applied for specific raids or events to gain an advantage against specific mobs.

    -Appearances customization would be a plus in 1 major regard. Allows the color to be changed for each enchantments effect while make the effect itself unique to each enchantment. Only say this so people can match their enchants color to whatever look they are going for. To make it more interesting the colors can be made to be learned or found as recipes.

    -Perhaps have class specific enchants? Not only are they limited for use by a specific class but they need to be made by that specific class as well? Just a thought as far as increasing the demand for different enchanters and not having everyone just go to that one guy all of the time.

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  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Where's the risk vs reward element, then?

    I wrote a list of ten or so random risks earlier in the thread. Loss of mats is one. Others include death, item durability loss, getting cursed, spawning a demon, changing the visual of the item, getting a different enchant, and I think I’d add being turned into a sheep for 3 min.

    I was always a fan of the Deck of Many Things.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    DezzRevas wrote: »
    Niküa are most likely going to have ship building buffs from the lore and style that we have from them now. However the Empyrean Elves, we are more likely to have enchanting bonuses. We are the more magically inclined race after all.
    I'm not aware of a "more magically inclined" race.
    Ships were more of a stretch goal, so I think ship-building won't be a Niküa Artisan Profession.
    I would think that Empyrean might be more likely to focus on Enscription for Enchanting, rather than Runesmithing.
    But, we shall see.
  • RelypeRelype Member
    I think people are over reacting when they hear RNG, they can surely make it two ways,

    Have safe enchant to one point, then you have RNG , BUT you can farm different scrolls like in Lineage 2 (blessed enchant scroll) which doesn't break your weapon but returns you to 0, also they can add some very difficult to craft scrolls which if fails doesn't lower your enchantment or decrease your enchant by 1 but increases your chances of success with X amount. I would be nice enchanting system if they have RNG but also a way to some rare materials which allows you to craft safe scrolls of some kind, tbf lineage 2 enchanting system has some great potential. One thing for over enchanting is if we can use these hardly craftable (or drop from boss) scrolls is to not increase chance of success and reduce enchant of item by 3 instead of going to 0. But yeah I dont know anything about their enchant system so i guess thats just a suggestion...
  • RadniaRadnia Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 20
    What aspects of the Enchanting system are important to you?

    Well, the thing about enchanting is that it is integral to a high fantasy world. Everything about it is important from; magical weaponry, to magical furniture, magical armor, magical accessories, and so on. It gives thing that are mundane something to make them unique.

    Are there Enchanting systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, what makes Enchanting in those games good?


    From a narrative perspective and a roleplay perspective, oddly enough Runescape and Warhammer have the best enchanting systems in my opinions. Enchantments run amuck and make everything in these games fantastical.

    Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding the Enchanting system?


    I'd be concerned if the enchanting system in this game is lackluster, because there's so many things you can do with enchanting.
  • So after thinking about Enchanting for a few days I kinda want to see enchants that cover no direct damage buffs, but rather environmental hazard reductions(inclusions?) and elemental damage and resistances to players like increasing oxygen when swimming, making holy swords for +damage to undead(specific rather then direct +all damage), fire resistance armor. That poison gas you showed being a perfect spot were you needed a cleric, but didnt have one at that moment making the area hard to pass through. That could have been a great armor enchant to reduce damage taken over time to poison/corruption.

    Cool glowy effects or fantasy words swirling around a blade or glowing runes added to armor. Give us some flavor and fun cosmetics to work twards. I feel challanging and rewarding a better insentive then tedious and repetative and punishing. If the enchants are mostly cosmetic it gives us reason to re-enchant things if we want to change our looks or see something else that's cool to wear.

    And if its environmental and can be done on the fly then an enchanter in a party could be very helpful not just for raids but in the world traversal. They shouldnt be able to 100% solve a hazard but they can lesson the impact. Proffesions should be fun and feel like they matter otherwise why should they be included? They need to fill a niche and feed off of each other.

    If an enchanter needs a wand to enchant or alter for more powerful enchants they can talk to a logger for wood and a miner for stone. Put uses on the Alter so the tool breaks down after too many uses. The processors can shape the object and Enchanter can enchant the object to the finished piece. Fishing pole only catching trash and low rarity fish? Enchant the pole for better fishing. Did a player upset you? Slip a cursed ring into their pocket. Not all enchants have to be positive. They can be cursed.

    Are you in a diffrent religion then another fellow enchanter? Make the enchants specialized to that religions "ethics".

    It's a bunch of ideas thrown at the wall maybe others can add to it?
  • SteeljawSteeljaw Member
    edited May 20
    Please do not add an RNG element for failure. Some of us older MMO players don't have tons of free time and if I spend the time to collect the materials for an enchantment it should 1) always work 2) never waste the materials (meaning the materials are used but you get something out of the enchantment). The main reason for this is do you as Devs want me as the player to feel good about playing your game? Because if I need to spend 10 hours collecting materials and the enchant fails and I lose all of the materials and get nothing out of it then you are just wasting my time and when I log off I won't think to myself "boy what a great time I had playing for 10 hours and lost it all to RNG". I would probably think twice about giving my time to this game if that is what happens. The mere fact that you spend time, money, materials to enchant is an economic sink in and of itself. There is NO NEED for failure because even if you are successful you take the materials etc out of the game anyways.
  • So, I prefer enchanting to have some kind of skill based mini game. Enchants should be attainable but not easy to get. Having something to work adds a lot of value. Especially if we can collect enchant combos that are rare enough to have a crafting market.

    Weirdly enough the closest I’ve come to a truely complex and complete enchanting system is in the mod for Minecraft call thuamcraft. It basically breaks enchanting into a series of work steps, gathering the knowledge to make enchantments, gathering the components to make the enchantments, setting up the infrastructure to process the materials and support the enchanting, then finally the enchanting itself that is an active process that takes around 30 seconds, but can go horribly wrong if done incorrectly. Of course this is a game mod, that is basically enchanting the game, so it probably more complex than need for ashes, but I think it’s the best model out there for crafting.
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