Best examples of Action Combat? Starting to Feel Like Tab > Action

Yours truly is trying a lot of different MMO's lately, and it's starting to feel pointless to have an Action-style combat system in a real MMORPG.

Now, I've tried Lost Ark - which is probably the end-all of Action-style combat systems. I didn't stick with it (80 hours, according to the tracker) because Lost Ark feels like a single-player game. It's almost akin to a 2D-scroller, except you can move in all of the compass directions. The most useful insight it provided is that Action-style combat really isn't very useful against a single opponent, since the game is capable of not registering that you're trying to hit the enemy; it's true usefulness seems to be in fighting against groups of enemies. However, most MMO's will let you tab-target either yourself or a single enemy, and then fire off an AoE ability, in fighting groups.

Since enemies in MMO's tend to gather directly around you or bunch up together in small, cloistered groups that you can just AoE, is it really necessary to HAVE Action-style combat in an MMO? Isn't it more of a hack-and-slash game feature?

Just started trying Guild Wars 2 - which in previous forums-threads, some people identify as Action-combat, while others identify it as Tab-targeting. I've come to define GW2 as Action-combat, since you don't have to have an enemy targeted to use your combat abilities, and your weapon swings freely - damaging any enemies in your way. I've already tried Lineage 2, since AoC is supposed to take a lot of inspiration from it's systems, and just find it too static/old now to really get into, as a new player.

Are there some really good examples of Action-based systems anyone can recommend? I'm not enjoying the feel/gameplay of GW2, atm.

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NishUK

how can I side with you?

"tab is shit for pvp".

So that's a massive flaw right? "WRONG!"

Just see the other side, I'm not looking to destroy your content, I'm after a game where both sides can live and prosper with one another.

Look at NW, it wasn't even fast pased, you're putting action combat "fast paced" to solidify your arguement, I even said BDO's combat needs toning down to co-incide with group play and the trinity system.

Noaani

NishUK wrote: »

Look at NW, it wasn't even fast pased, you're putting action combat "fast paced" to solidify your arguement, I even said BDO's combat needs toning down to co-incide with group play and the trinity system.

See, this is why I specifically said I was assuming competent developers for both.

Both games started out with just the combat system - tab vs action. As such, that is the core focus of the game.

If you are making a game where action combat is the main focus, you don't make it with a slow pace.

Dygz

I guess I'm not sure what is meant by "a game where both sides can live with one another".
There could be a generic MMO where that is possible. I'm still highly skeptical that's possible for an MMOPRG.
Especially if the paradigm that tab-target is best for PvE and action combat is best for PvP is true.

Steven is hoping that Ashes will be a game where both tab-target and action combat coincide with having no separate PvE/RP/PvP servers. We still have to test all of that to determine how successful that will be.

mcstackerson wrote: »

WoW announced a new race, customizable dragons, crafting, and a new form of flying. None of those are pve or pvp content so by your logic, if one of those got the most "cheers," wow players don't care about pve or pvp.

Point i'm trying to make is people usually get excited for the new shinny thing which isn't always a primary gameplay loop.

Action and tab are both third person methods of controlling your character. WoW has used free aim skills to supplement their tab combat from the beginning. I think we consider them the same genre because they are the same gameplay wise. If you think it should be a new genre's then cool but I'm not sure why that matters.

What got RPG players excited about playing WoW: Dragonflight is that there is an expansion to Warcraft story and lore. There are new roles to play - new races and new classes and new abilities. We can expect new Dungeons and Raids. That's primarily PvE content. Because WoW is primarily a PvE game with some PvP added to it. And, sure, some people might be focused on new shinies.
But, for WoW, most people play on PvE servers rather than servers that have PvP.

People already think that RPing in MMORPGs is niche. But, hack and slash combat completely eradicates any RP - especially if there is PvP in that game - because then all people care about is mowing down enemies as quickly as possible and then moving on to the next combat challenge.

I think WoW using some free aim skills is irrelevant to the discussion.
I don't think anyone has argued that MMORPGs should be 100% tab-target.
I dunno what you think the percentage of action abilities are in WoW, but I think the percentage is low.
And I'm not aware of WoW having roll/dodge/block skill, like NWO.

PenguinPaladin

I think a hybrid system is completly viable. I see it this way. As a front line tank or warrior, my abilities are most useful if i can use them freely on whats in front of my without needing to tab target. While what i do uave tab targeted is just what i want in the back of my mind. Like my back row healer, so his status stays front and center on my screen. Or the enemies target number 1, so when i see they are vulnerable at a glance to my tab target, i can act. While as a back row its somewhat the opposite, i have my main target tab targeted so i can focus on them and let my abilities fly without too much thought, while watching the battlefield for changes. I think a true hybrid system has its methods of making combat something interesting in its own way. And i think having a working hybrid combat system is the only way of having the best of both worlds. Interesting ingaging minor combat, where the action side of things keeps you interested. And the tab side of things so the major 1000 player battles arent so overwhelming that you cant act

And i also want to add, that alot of arguments seem to be, action is better for pvp, while tab is better for pve. And i have to say. Ashes is aiming to try and make both of these things rewarding. They are trying to be "over inclusive" as some people would say. And my opinion on this is, its not that it can not be done. Its that every game to release in the last 10 years has been more focused on the money they can make over the product they are working on. Its more a question of if intrepid is biting off more than it can chew trying to do both. Its not that both can not be done.

Dygz

Hopefully...

NishUK

Noaani wrote: »

Steven is hoping that Ashes will be a game where both tab-target and action combat coincide with having no separate PvE/RP/PvP servers. We still have to test all of that to determine how successful that will be.

If it's good enough the whole playerbase will be happy and we will appreciate each other, not seperate us into groups like we don't belong with one another...

If WoW needed RP servers my goodness....I was on a relic of an mmo called Ultima Online and it is full of just nice players, rarely an RP in sight, there isn't enough of a userbase to even warrant it

Noaani

NishUK wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Steven is hoping that Ashes will be a game where both tab-target and action combat coincide with having no separate PvE/RP/PvP servers. We still have to test all of that to determine how successful that will be.

If it's good enough the whole playerbase will be happy and we will appreciate each other, not seperate us into groups like we don't belong with one another...

If WoW needed RP servers my goodness....I was on a relic of an mmo called Ultima Online and it is full of just nice players, rarely an RP in sight, there isn't enough of a userbase to even warrant it

Yeah, but if it's not good enough, the game will die.

So far, I see no reason to assume it will be good enough., and the more I look at the disparity between the two, the more obvious it becomes that there is no crossover in the Venn diagram of where action players are happy with an action combat game, and where tab players are happy with a tab target game.

At best - the absolute most this specific game can realistically hope for - is to appeal to people that don't really care one way or the other.

Unless, of course, Intrepid realize this in time. They have said before that if they can not get hybrid to work, they will fall back on tab target.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

On the other hand, tab target is shit for PvP, but allows for more variation in PvE. Thus, a game that is tab target based us best served ignoring PvP, and focusing on PvE.

Iirc you yourself said that L2 is one of the best pvp mmos out there. And that shit is so tab that you even have to tabp the ground to move.

The combat was really fast too and knowledge of class matchups led to an advantage in a fight, so it could be argued that skill mattered in pvp, even if it wasn't necessarily mechanical (though considering the "untarget" abilities, you sometimes had to click where you opponent was quickly, otherwise you'd die in 2 hits, so that's soooomewhat mechanical?).

PenguinPaladin

Is this using stevens definition of action combat? The way steven explained at some point, i cant quote. Aoe circles, and cone effects are also considered action combat. And a tab system, with cones and aoes. Aoes centered around the player, and mouse targeted aoes. Seems completly do able, and fits stevens definition of a hybrid system

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

On the other hand, tab target is shit for PvP, but allows for more variation in PvE. Thus, a game that is tab target based us best served ignoring PvP, and focusing on PvE.

Iirc you yourself said that L2 is one of the best pvp mmos out there. And that shit is so tab that you even have to tabp the ground to move.

The combat was really fast too and knowledge of class matchups led to an advantage in a fight, so it could be argued that skill mattered in pvp, even if it wasn't necessarily mechanical (though considering the "untarget" abilities, you sometimes had to click where you opponent was quickly, otherwise you'd die in 2 hits, so that's soooomewhat mechanical?).

I should clarify - my reasons for saying L2 is among the best PvP MMO's that have been made is not due to it's combat. It is due to the game as a whole. It gives players a means to fight, with little in terms of reason not to. Most PvP games that have followed have given players both reason and means to not fight at least some of the time.

Dygz

NishUK wrote: »

If it's good enough the whole playerbase will be happy and we will appreciate each other, not seperate us into groups like we don't belong with one another...

That is a ludicrous statement, but...OK. Sure.

CROW3

Skyrim is entirely action combat pve and epically popular. WoW is tab and pvp is still popular there.

IMO HOW a combat system is implemented is much more important than the category of the combat system.

I love action system for bows when they are done well. Neverwinter was good action bows. ESO sucked.

Noaani

CROW3 wrote: »

Skyrim is entirely action combat pve and epically popular. WoW is tab and pvp is still popular there.

IMO HOW a combat system is implemented is much more important than the category of the combat system.

I love action system for bows when they are done well. Neverwinter was good action bows. ESO sucked.

It isnt the combat in Skyrim that people love.

If anything, that is the aspect of the game that has recieves the most criticism.

CROW3

And yet it’s remained near the top of the replay list 12 years later.

I mean feel free to move the goal posts wherever you want, but there are good pve games with action combat and good pvp games with tab combat.

Combat will succeed in Ashes if it plays well and ‘feels’ solid - whether it’s action, tab, or something in between. My main concern at this point is they just decide and focus on progress.

Okeydoke

CROW3 wrote: »

Skyrim is entirely action combat pve and epically popular. WoW is tab and pvp is still popular there.

IMO HOW a combat system is implemented is much more important than the category of the combat system.

I love action system for bows when they are done well. Neverwinter was good action bows. ESO sucked.

Agree. Sure is a lot of sweeping generalizations and mislabeling in this thread. I don't know the numbers for sure, but I'm sure the argument could be made that WoW was and is the the mmo where the highest numbers of players pvp. Just based on it's player numbers. And it's tab. If true, or even anywhere close to true, it sure would blow completely out of the water a lot of arguments in this thread.

Dygz

CROW3 wrote: »

Skyrim is entirely action combat pve and epically popular. WoW is tab and pvp is still popular there.

IMO HOW a combat system is implemented is much more important than the category of the combat system.

I love action system for bows when they are done well. Neverwinter was good action bows. ESO sucked.

I just now took a look at Skyrim combat. Seems close to what I'd want for action combat. It's not Hack & Slash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyl_Uwwe5A0
I think I might want the equivalent of some of these mods to be default features for Ashes.
Target locking seems like it's a nice hybrid system instead of tab-target.
I especially like the camera rotation mods... probably more than the combat mods.

CROW3

There was a small, kinda crappy game called Dungeons of Edera that almost had the exact combat feel I want for my Ranger. The attacks had enough weight and momentum, I could switch easily between a ranged and melee encounter, and use abilities on the mob I had my reticle over.

Skyrim’s archery was fantastic, but the vanilla UX to switch weapons was dreadful.

NishUK

Dygz wrote: »

That is a ludicrous statement, but...OK. Sure.

You seem to be a very selective person, I call it anti-social.

If you can't find a spec of happiness or some things to peek your interest from people without exact similar interests than you, well... ye I guess you need a game with a PvE only/RP server because I don't think your competitive at all.

Archeage and a game like Ashe's can't go RP or PvE only most likely, PvP and contest is integrated, so you'll probably be stuck with all those damn kids, and "toxic" heads like myself I guess

Noaani

CROW3 wrote: »

And yet it’s remained near the top of the replay list 12 years later.

Indeed it is. I still have it installed on my computer - still play it occasionally.

However, combat is not the draw for the game, the world is. For the last 6 or so years, it's been the mods that have been the draw for the game.

Also, did you ever try the multiplayer mode for Skyrim? Combat falls to pieces real quickly then, even if you double the HP and damage output of everything.

CROW3

Never tried the multiplayer mods, but I’ll take your word for it. For 2011, combat was still pretty solid. Would have been cool to have more melee techniques, but that’s a limitation that can be over come.

Witcher 3 is another example of an action combat pve game. It does have a ‘lock target’ mechanism, but I rarely used this so combat would feel more fluid. There were a broader range of attack techniques as well.

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