Not enough map space for 1 freehold per account.

Based on A1 being 10% the size of the map, I'd say there would be enough space for maybe 3000-5000 freeholds total. A1 maybe could hold 200-300 freeholds if you don't include the spaces for nodes, dungeons, npc camps, and the terrain being too steep. So even a generous amount would be 300*10 = 3000 total possible freehold locations, if you don't include the underground. That's with freeholds being back to back and no where to farm. People imagine open areas to farm mobs and recourses where you might see 1 or 2 freeholds every minute or so of travel. If this ideal is to be realized and about 10k players are per server, then the size of A1 being 5% of the map wouldn't even be enough space. If you guys don't want that big of a map and want to keep your promise on 1 account being able to place a freehold, it might be best to start a system where you can have channels, have something like Wildstar, and/or place rental plots in the wilderness for freeholds so that when you go out of a city, all you see aren't just freehold after freehold.

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Goalid

@SongRune you also have to take into consideration that the majority of land area of the map is not going to be space for freeholds, most notably freeholds will have a radius that prevents another freehold from being placed near it. I did similar calculations to you in the past, but I included a chart with assumptions with "% land available for freeholds." I think my best assumption was 2%, and for that I got around 3000 freeholds being available across the entire map.

Dygz

Sheeta wrote: »

I'm not trying to make anything specific happen other than maybe to hope for the map size to increase, as it is even in the title of this very forum post. Of course there may be changes in the future. That is the point of this very post, to help make better informed decisions/changes. I don't get your posts as all I'm really hearing is that you want to shoot me down due to your belief things will be better regardless. Isn't that the definition of copium or is it hopium?

I mean... you don't know what the map size actually is.
There is no way for us to know how much room there is for freeholds - until we test it.
Or unless the devs share their projections/demos in a dev livestream.
The devs should be quite capable of making sure the world is large enough to accomodate the number of freeholds they want and also still have space to appreciate unoccupied environments in the various biomes.

Dygz

Sheeta wrote: »

So, what you guys are saying is that I wasted my time to bring up a problem that might arise in the future because regardless of what I think or the community thinks, Intrepid won't listen? I heard it was the opposite, but I might be wrong on that one. *shrugs* I rest my case, then....since it won't be heard anyways.

Though, one last question before I go....Seriously...? How about we wait until A2 when the map would be completed to know more about it to THEN suggest they make the map bigger? I'm just going to SMH on that one.

We're saying you've made up a problem in your head. You haven't convinced us it's an actual problem. If it's not a problem, IS doesn't have to do anything to rectify the problem because the problem does not exist.
And, we can't determine whether it's an actual problem until we test it in Alpha Two.

Goalid

I think it's fine to have concerns over systems in the game, and see how they play out I Alpha 2. There are also concerns we have now that may be untestable for a large part of Alpha 2, for instance maybe Intrepid doesn't intend to have 10k concurrent players in Alpha 2.

Having also played a ton of Alpha One, I'd say that I hope that the map size is much larger than Alpha Island being just 10% of the map, especially if that estimate is including ocean area. It's large on foot, but on a mount it wasn't hard to get around, which has major implications for the need for caravans, and localized economies. Also, with 10,000 players on a server, I'm worried about overcrowding in cities.

I'm excited for Alpha Two and hope to see them increase the land size by quite a bit.

Taiphee

Increasing the size of the world map is cool, I like that.... But on the premise that there won't be enough space for freeholds is flawed.

Its not a problem to start with mainly because it's not intended for everyone to have them (not just based on whether they want it or not but also because there isn't space for it), like every other luxury in the game (cottages and mansions being examples) they are meant to be highly contested and it is not part of the design for everyone to have them.

As for the concern for cluster, that won't be the case because Steven (and the Intrepid team) clearly wants us to enjoy the view of the world they are creating and that would not be ruined by cluster of freeholds, that's not to say you won't see maybe 3-5 freeholds in an area but that would not be a consistent thing as the terrain is also an important factor in placing freeholds along with POIs and roads etc

I'd also like to play in a bigger world, but whatever works for Intrepid works for me as well.... The world is already big enough.

Also if you want to make use of a freehold, you don't have to own one, you could discuss with friends you make in the game that have one, which also boost one thing Intrepid is highly focused on and that is the interaction between players.... Even solo players would have to interact with others from time to time to get a good foothold in the economics, politics and POI knowledge in his server. Honestly I have to pause myself here so to concclude: I'd like a bigger world yes (my opinion and @Sheeta along with others as well) but the freehold system is not broken or it doesn't have any issues so far, it's not meant to be owned by everyone even if everyone wanted it. So that's that 😊

Noaani

Goalid wrote: »

I think it's fine to have concerns over systems in the game, and see how they play out I Alpha 2.

Indeed it is.

Having a concern that this may be an issue is perfectly valid.

Attempting to use math that is both broken and based on assumptions in some sad attempt to "prove" that it is a problem is, well, a problem.

Suggesting fixes to this "proven" problem based on broken math that is founded on baseless assumptions, however, is one step too far.

Sheeta

Noaani wrote: »

Goalid wrote: »

I think it's fine to have concerns over systems in the game, and see how they play out I Alpha 2.

Indeed it is.

Having a concern that this may be an issue is perfectly valid.

Attempting to use math that is both broken and based on assumptions in some sad attempt to "prove" that it is a problem is, well, a problem.

Suggesting fixes to this "proven" problem based on broken math that is founded on baseless assumptions, however, is one step too far.

So you are telling me you did not read what I said? I never claimed anything was a problem. I said "Probable" and "May arise" as a problem. The only claim, if you want to be so technical, was the statement in the title which would be more or less correct because not only I, but 3 other people in this post have come to the same conclusion. Now instead of lying about me saying that I said I had proved there was a problem, just say that calculations is an opinion and leave it at that.

Noaani

Sheeta wrote: »

not only I, but 3 other people in this post have come to the same conclusion.

They came to the same conclusion using the same basic flawed assumptions.

If I were to make all of the assumptions you made, I would come to that same conclusion. However, I would also be disappointed with myself for making those assumptions.

Sheeta

Noaani wrote: »

Sheeta wrote: »

not only I, but 3 other people in this post have come to the same conclusion.

They came to the same conclusion using the same basic flawed assumptions.

If I were to make all of the assumptions you made, I would come to that same conclusion. However, I would also be disappointed with myself for making those assumptions.

Ah, so since you did not address the fact that you lied, you're misdirecting to a different issue? You'd make a great politician. I think Biden has a job opening as the head of the ministry of truth. Though with you circling back, you might be best to take over Jen Psaki's job. You might just be better at it than her.

I gotta thank you for saying the calculation is an opinion, though. I just hope you leave it at that.

Noaani

Sheeta wrote: »

Ah, so since you did not address the fact that you lied

Sheeta wrote: »

TLDR: YES, I WANT the map size to increase so that my presumptions are thrown out. That's the point.

At best, you said you want to see the fix you have proposed for the issue you think you have found, regardless of whether it is an issue or not.

Seriously. That is worse than any presumed lie you may think I might have told.

How about you just leave it at that?

Sheeta

Noaani wrote: »

Sheeta wrote: »

Ah, so since you did not address the fact that you lied

Sheeta wrote: »

TLDR: YES, I WANT the map size to increase so that my presumptions are thrown out. That's the point.

At best, you said you want to see the fix you have proposed for the issue you think you have found, regardless of whether it is an issue or not.

Seriously. That is worse than any presumed lie you may think I might have told.

How about you just leave it at that?

So wanting a game to have a bigger map is more damning than lying about what others say. That is an interesting view of the world. Good to know there are some people out there like that....so I can avoid them like the plague. =P I'll come back if I see any more lies about me. We'll see if there is a next episode....OF DRAGON BALL Z!!

Noaani

Sheeta wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Sheeta wrote: »

Ah, so since you did not address the fact that you lied

Sheeta wrote: »

TLDR: YES, I WANT the map size to increase so that my presumptions are thrown out. That's the point.

At best, you said you want to see the fix you have proposed for the issue you think you have found, regardless of whether it is an issue or not.

Seriously. That is worse than any presumed lie you may think I might have told.

How about you just leave it at that?

So wanting a game to have a bigger map is more damning than lying about what others say.

Yes.

The game map is the size it is because that is the size Intrepid decided they want it.

Why do YOU think you know better?

That all being said, you have been talking as if your "math" is an absolute and is correct this whole thread. You haven't entertained the notion that you may be wrong - making what I said not an actual lie.

If someone says something about you that you are so offended by that you think it must be a lie, but that thing is actually at least mostly founded in truth, you should probably reassess your own actions.

Sheeta

Noaani wrote: »

Sheeta wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Sheeta wrote: »

Ah, so since you did not address the fact that you lied

Sheeta wrote: »

TLDR: YES, I WANT the map size to increase so that my presumptions are thrown out. That's the point.

At best, you said you want to see the fix you have proposed for the issue you think you have found, regardless of whether it is an issue or not.

Seriously. That is worse than any presumed lie you may think I might have told.

How about you just leave it at that?

So wanting a game to have a bigger map is more damning than lying about what others say.

Yes.

The game map is the size it is because that is the size Intrepid decided they want it.

Why do YOU think you know better?

That all being said, you have been talking as if your "math" is an absolute and is correct this whole thread. You haven't entertained the notion that you may be wrong - making what I said not an actual lie.

If someone says something about you that you are so offended by that you think it must be a lie, but that thing is actually at least mostly founded in truth, you should probably reassess your own actions.

Wow. Still trying to double speak to say I still lied when I did not. Honey, listen. I believe you are an adult, I would hope so. So, learn from this...I beg of you. When someone says "Here are the parameters in which I did these calculations" and it was rough estimate, it is a given that the person may be wrong. Actually when someone shows proof of where and how they got the information from, they usually want others to challenge and dispute their findings so they can grow and learn from it. To automatically assume and deceive others otherwise, is pretty Orwellian especially when that person is telling you in every way they can that what you are assuming is not true.
I guess I'll have to treat you like a baby, a non-critical thinker. Honey, of course when I'm trying to predict what may happen in the future with the evidence I have on hand may be wrong......What do you think I am? God? Though, thanks for bringing to my attention that the Orwellian influence is not only infecting real life, but also gaming communities. It's kinda depressing.

‘How do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable – what then?’ - George Orwell

‘Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.’ - George Orwell

CROW3

Sheeta wrote: »

The only claim, if you want to be so technical, was the statement in the title which would be more or less correct because not only I, but 3 other people in this post have come to the same conclusion.

There’s no conclusion to reach here. That’s the point.

You have a concern, which is worthy of discussion, but you have little to no actual data, no inside knowledge, and a very limited perspective on the current build (as we all do) - therefore have nothing precipitate to base a conclusion on.

I like 1984 as much as the next person, but there’s nothing here that rises to the occasion.

So, chill.

Sheeta

CROW3 wrote: »

Sheeta wrote: »

The only claim, if you want to be so technical, was the statement in the title which would be more or less correct because not only I, but 3 other people in this post have come to the same conclusion.

There’s no conclusion to reach here. That’s the point.

You have a concern, which is worthy of discussion, but you have little to no actual data, no inside knowledge, and a very limited perspective on the current build (as we all do) - therefore have nothing precipitate to base a conclusion on.

I like 1984 as much as the next person, but there’s nothing here that rises to the occasion.

So, chill.

I'm chill with others saying my calculations and conclusions are opinion, as it is indeed a fact that it is. I never argued against this. I just get up in arms about people are using lies to shut down dissenting opinion, lies about myself or others. The main thing I value in the world is honesty and trying to grow to be a better person. To be attack as I have been when I'm being genuine and upfront with others just feels like there's nothing I can do or say to appease. Damned if I do, Damned if I don't. So there will be no dissenting opinion, only what Orwellian people believe. Though, like I said earlier, assuming people will be adults might be too much unfortunately. =/

SongRune

Noaani wrote: »

Sheeta wrote: »

not only I, but 3 other people in this post have come to the same conclusion.

They came to the same conclusion using the same basic flawed assumptions.

If I were to make all of the assumptions you made, I would come to that same conclusion. However, I would also be disappointed with myself for making those assumptions.

That whole discussion aside, can you show me where I went wrong? It would help me at least to understand the context of this discussion if you could show me where specifically we disagree.

I tried to be conservative and state (and cite) all of my assumptions, so I'm hoping it's straightforward to correct. I'm not perfect though, so let me know if anything's unclear and I'll try to resolve it.

My post with my assumptions & citations
My post with the correction to my arithmetic (I figure this is less important than the one with my assumptions.)

@Sheeta, You might have a good subject for a Q&A question, here. "Given the size of the world, is the plan for most players to be able to have their own freehold, or will they be more exclusive?" It could be a quick way to settle your worries, if only by making it clear if Intrepid took a different route.

superhero6785

Just a thought - what if at the time of purchasing the certificate of freehold ownership from the Node, you were presented with a grid-like map of available plots for sale and you select your plot at that time, then you can place your freehold within your already designated area of land, which would include a buffer between freeholds. While this would be more structured, it would prevent a lot of the inefficiency of people placing freeholds randomly and unknowingly to who else is around them. Perhaps land purchases go to the Node's coffers and could even be auctioned to the highest bidders? More desirable land going to those willing to pay for it?

Sheeta

SongRune wrote: »

@Sheeta, You might have a good subject for a Q&A question, here. "Given the size of the world, is the plan for most players to be able to have a freehold, or will they be more exclusive?" It could be a quick way to settle your worries, if only by making it clear if Intrepid took a different route.

Since I have to assume people are babies, here is a disclaimer: I don't not speak for IS and can only base my assumptions on the information that I have knowledge on. What I'm saying can not replace medical advice from a trained professional and...No violence! lol Sorry, I had to. =P

From what I researched, even though it might not be good enough, I do know of what I cited before. Like "The current design allows placement of freeholds anywhere in the ZOI of the node that the certificate was purchased from, including its vassal nodes. This may change as the result of testing." and what Steven has said. It is designed to be exclusive, to encourage wars on nodes. This subject, like I said before, is a side concern of mine. I was worried about casuals wanting to play solely to make their own house/freehold....Those dirty sims players! lol Though, my main concern to the hope that there will be wildness and not just suburbs everywhere. I don't mind if nothing changes from what they said they are planning on, tbh. I just wanted to help IS in suggesting something in hopes that it'll make the game better for both worlds.

Sheeta

superhero6785 wrote: »

Just a thought - what if at the time of purchasing the certificate of freehold ownership from the Node, you were presented with a grid-like map of available plots for sale and you select your plot at that time, then you can place your freehold within your already designated area of land, which would include a buffer between freeholds. While this would be more structured, it would prevent a lot of the inefficiency of people placing freeholds randomly and unknowingly to who else is around them. Perhaps land purchases go to the Node's coffers and could even be auctioned to the highest bidders? More desirable land going to those willing to pay for it?

The grid system might help so some degree, but compared to the amount of effort to make it and that the coding might bug out other things, it most likely won't be best to implement. Though it there was some other systems utilizing the grid, I could see it as more probable to implement.

For now I believe it's first come first serve. Now that you made me think about it, if they could make the different nodes have different requirements to have freeholds there, that would be a lot more interesting in how to make it more competitive. Pvp nodes will only allow high rankers to have freeholds, economic nodes to the highest bidder, diplomacy nodes to those who ranked high enough in votes. That sounds cool.

Craiken

SongRune wrote: »

@Sheeta, You might have a good subject for a Q&A question, here. "Given the size of the world, is the plan for most players to be able to have their own freehold, or will they be more exclusive?" It could be a quick way to settle your worries, if only by making it clear if Intrepid took a different route.

I would be very interested in hearing the answer to this.

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