Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

Noaani wrote: »

The issue with this is that we are talking about all of this happening at the level cap - everyone has all of their abilities before any of this even gets started.

As such, you have to assume that players will have access to all damage types.

So, if you have your ice protection gear at tier four, people will be using ice damage on everyone below their 4, knowing that they don't have particularly good protection against it.

This makes things worse for casual players, as it means literally everyone knows their weakness - ice damage (or any other protection that is only available at higher tiers).

I meaaan, I'd hope top lvl bois don't go nuking newbie casuals left and right. And in a big fight you'll have a wide variety of gear across tiers and resistances, so there's a fairly high chance that some lower lvl dude might have a skill that's strong against a higher lvl dude exactly because higher lvl dude has t2 gear on because it's his favorite and it matches his party's composition perfectly. And now you have a situation where the weaker player has a higher chance at defeating a stronger player. Wider RPS working as intended.

NishUK

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Good gear can be just good gear. Im not certain gear balance is a singularly discussed option. Ashes is aiming to balance based of off an 8 vs 8 party, not balance individual classes. I think this philosophy goes straight into we're going to balance gear teirs, not individual pieces of gear. Its okay for some outliers to exist. If everything is perfectly balanced to where skill is yhe only factor then casuals literally never have even the slightest chance.

If you want gear+skill casuals or average players will never win big in PvP.

You want gear so how hard you wallop mobs or how little damage they do to you is exciting right + the look of it? Why can't that improve additionally from other avenues, why is gear cheapened to the point of where each piece of legendary gear is a guarenteed grind/yellow brick road phase and someone this alone impresses the user?

The heavy leaning on gear is puzzling...

NiKr wrote: »

I meaaan, I'd hope top lvl bois don't go nuking newbie casuals left and right.

So do I. I also don't see any reason why we would.

And in a big fight you'll have a wide variety of gear across tiers and resistances, so there's a fairly high chance that some lower lvl dude might have a skill that's strong against a higher lvl dude exactly because higher lvl dude has t2 gear on because it's his favorite and it matches his party's composition perfectly. And now you have a situation where the weaker player has a higher chance at defeating a stronger player. Wider RPS working as intended.

The issue here is that the better geared player isn't just going to go in to the fight with a single tier of gear, if that gear will only protect him against one type of damage.

Basically what this would amount to is people at lower tiers having no protection, and as you move up tiers, you gain protection to more and more damage types that you can chose to use when and how you like.

The other thing this will do is force players in to specific gear. When I talk about item tiers, I am not saying you are this class, you are tier 2, therefore you must use this item. In Ashes, gear is player made for the most part (including top end gear). Players have some agency over the stats, and we would have to assume that includes defensive stats.

Implementing a system with gear like this would mean players lose that agency.

Id perfer a game with increadible and questioningly broken gear at the unique stage. And that means that non uniqe top teir needs to be close enough to complete with numbers advantage. It doesnt need to be balanced perfectly. Everyone likes an underdog story.

Ferryman wrote: »

[. So you have the knowledge that the gear will be balanced around 8v8 PvP?

I have knowledge about many things, yes.

Noaani wrote: »

The issue here is that the better geared player isn't just going to go in to the fight with a single tier of gear, if that gear will only protect him against one type of damage.

Forbid gear changing while in combat and you got yourself a locked in boi. And unless both sides of the conflict perfectly know each other's gear/augments/abilities - you won't be able to perfectly fit your gear to their attacks.

Noaani wrote: »

Basically what this would amount to is people at lower tiers having no protection, and as you move up tiers, you gain protection to more and more damage types that you can chose to use when and how you like.

Make sets have better benefits than randomly thrown on shit, which would lead to the party itself mixing and matching their gear sets in order to have resistances to more stuff, so that they all don't get nuked by some lucky aoe crit.

Noaani wrote: »

The other thing this will do is force players in to specific gear. When I talk about item tiers, I am not saying you are this class, you are tier 2, therefore you must use this item.

People will be forced into different gear either way. Be it just purely through tiers of power lvls or through horizontal stats. But if some of your horizontal gear is low on the vertical power lvl, you might get bonked because of that.

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, gear is player made for the most part (including top end gear). Players have some agency over the stats, and we would have to assume that includes defensive stats.

Implementing a system with gear like this would mean players lose that agency.

You just have the base gear give you particular stats/benefits and you then use dials to shift those stats a bit or maybe add some additional stuff on top.

I mean on some stage your're right. People with higher level gear could beat up people with lower level gear.... ill point out that you level up in the game too. If gear cant bloat your power because its unfair to those with weaker gear than leveling needs to be pointless too so people cant outlevel each other....

I think this has stopped being a rational discussion.

NishUK

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Id perfer a game with increadible and questioningly broken gear at the unique stage. And that means that non uniqe top teir needs to be close enough to complete with numbers advantage. It doesnt need to be balanced perfectly. Everyone likes an underdog story.

Expand on this please.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The issue here is that the better geared player isn't just going to go in to the fight with a single tier of gear, if that gear will only protect him against one type of damage.

Forbid gear changing while in combat and you got yourself a locked in boi. And unless both sides of the conflict perfectly know each other's gear/augments/abilities - you won't be able to perfectly fit your gear to their attacks.

In large scale PvP in a game like Archeage, you can go in and out of combat a half dozen times a minute. In small scale you can essentially do it at will.

Even failing that, you need to remember that in Ashes, we will be coming up against largely the same players day after day. The above isn't a way to solve this at all.

And in a big fight you'll have a wide variety of gear across tiers and resistances, so there's a fairly high chance that some lower lvl dude might have a skill that's strong against a higher lvl dude exactly because higher lvl dude has t2 gear on because it's his favorite and it matches his party's composition perfectly. And now you have a situation where the weaker player has a higher chance at defeating a stronger player. Wider RPS working as intended.

Gear having set bonuses is lame. It ties players in to having to use specific items, which is not what an MMORPG should be.

Players should be able to mix and match from all gear available to them, and receive the full benefit of what ever gear they decide to use.

Basically, all of your answers here seem to be the same - remove player choice because things get harder to balance when players have choice. This is why MOBA's and FPS games don't offer players much choice, and the fact that MMORPG's do is why they are considered the most complex entertainment software so far created.

Personally, any time a suggestion can be summed up by saying "limit players to these things", it gets a hard no from me.

NishUK wrote: »

Expand on this please.

Since you said please....

Ashes is going to have uniqe items. True uniqe items. 1 of 1. If a 1 of 1 exists, it needs to be mind blowing good. No point otherwise. Top teir non uniqe items, need to be worse enough that this uniqe item is still amazing, but through numbers, and the over enchantment mechanics they can still manage to compete with the true uniqe items.

Im saying as gear progresses, a true uniqe needs to be at least 10% better than the very best, and probably have a few amazing untility effects on it over all. I think with over enchanting alot of the distance between lower gear and top level gear can be closed anyway. Im not risking my top level sword for a 5%damage buff. But my teir 2 sword i have 70 of, yeah over enchant it a handfull of times sure, i dont care if it blows up, and if it survives its on par with gear from higher tiers

Noaani wrote: »

In large scale PvP in a game like Archeage, you can go in and out of combat a half dozen times a minute. In small scale you can essentially do it at will.

Those are some damn quick combat resets and no target control from the opposing side, but whatever, we don't know whether Intrepid would even want to limit us that way.

Noaani wrote: »

Even failing that, you need to remember that in Ashes, we will be coming up against largely the same players day after day. The above isn't a way to solve this at all.

Yeah, and both sides will have to adapt to each other's setups. As you like to say, in mmorpgs the winner is the one who plays the overall game better. Wanna win? Adapt to your daily enemies, if you have any.

Noaani wrote: »

Gear having set bonuses is lame. It ties players in to having to use specific items, which is not what an MMORPG should be.

Players should be able to mix and match from all gear available to them, and receive the full benefit of what ever gear they decide to use.

That's where we'll have to just disagree because we obviously come from different school of thought so it's pointless discussing this.

Noaani wrote: »

Personally, any time a suggestion can be summed up by saying "limit players to these things", it gets a hard no from me.

Having separate gear for pve and pvp would be limiting to the player, because one will be the obviously better choice than the other.

Having big gaps between gear will limit the player because the one is obviously better and stronger than the other.

Having pve/pvp-specific dials/enchantments for gear would limit pvers and pvpers to only use those for their preferred playstyle.

Having mismatched gear allows for a much more meta'y gameplay because people will just look at what's the most optimal combination of shit and just go with that, while having sets have higher benefits while having downsides would make you take a risk for an encounter. And parties will have to adapt their gear builds to each other, instead of just going with the literal best combination of different parts.

So imo it's your suggestions that are limiting to a player. But obviously you don't see it that way and I ain't budging on my points, so this avenue of discussion is also growing pretty pointless. Good talk though

NiKr wrote: »

So imo it's your suggestions that are limiting to a player. But obviously you don't see it that way and I ain't budging on my points, so this avenue of discussion is also growing pretty pointless. Good talk though

Just to be clear here, you are saying you want to see top end gear all have set bonuses applied to it, which will either force or encourage (depending on how% good the bonuses are) players to use the same gear sets.

I want players to be able to mix and match from the items they have, in order to come up with the setup they want.

Yet you are saying that I am suggesting something that will limit player choice?

Instead of having sets with great benefits and also downsides, you have individual items that have this. This means I can take my robe that has a mana proc so I won't run out of mana, or I can take my robe with a damage proc. Neither one of these is an obvious best choice, it depends on the situation. If one of them also has high fire resistance, and the other has high ice resistance, then all of a sudden I have a multi-dimensional decision to make.

Or, add in items like one specific one from EQ2 (Bloodthirsty Choker). It increases your damage by 25% - a flat increase that applies before all other modifier. But it also deals an unmodifiable 10% of your total HP pool in damage every time you use an ability or spell.

Or, you know, just slap on all the gear from X set because that is what the developers decided I should wear.

Noaani wrote: »

Just to be clear here, you are saying you want to see top end gear all have set bonuses applied to it, which will either force or encourage (depending on how% good the bonuses are) players to use the same gear sets.

The set will give some particular stats, which can be then dialed through crafting said set. The bonuses from having the set will also give some horizontal stats, which could be changed through crafting (though we'll have to see if crafting works like that). The only "top end" feature about the set would be that it has higher base stats - that is m/p def/mitigation.

Noaani wrote: »

I want players to be able to mix and match from the items they have, in order to come up with the setup they want.

Except we all know that predominant majority will just look up a guide for "ThE bEsT aNd MoSt OpTiMaL gear combo" and go for that, because you simply cannot balance that kind of meta out.

Noaani wrote: »

Instead of having sets with great benefits and also downsides, you have individual items that have this. This means I can take my robe that has a mana proc so I won't run out of mana, or I can take my robe with a damage proc. Neither one of these is an obvious best choice, it depends on the situation. If one of them also has high fire resistance, and the other has high ice resistance, then all of a sudden I have a multi-dimensional decision to make.

Or, you know, just slap on all the gear from X set because that is what the developers decided I should wear.

I'm thinking more about how your character and gear would fit with the rest of the party. If the whole party is just wearing their best and optimal combo (with maybe a few backups for different situations) - your party is fully optimized and barely has any weak points.

But if each party member has to sacrifice some stat "for the greater good" of the party, which then might lead to complications in pvp/pve - that's not only "risk vs reward", but a meaningful choice on the part of each member of the group instead of a selfish "I'm in my best gear so it doesn't matter what yalls are wearing". For me, the player choice comes at the stage of choosing my party. If I prefer one set benefits over the other - I'll pick it and find a party that I suit best.

And as I see it, it's way easier to balance pros and cons of a full set of gear, rather than have pros and cons on each and every piece of gear and hope that there isn't some omega OP combination out there in the millions of possibilities.

Also, I don't remember your stance on transmogs, but I hate them so I wanna wear well-designed cool-looking full sets of armor instead of having some random rags that give me the best stats and cover them up by some cheating mechanic. That's a yet another L2 echo in my preferences.

NiKr wrote: »

But if each party member has to sacrifice some stat "for the greater good" of the party, which then might lead to complications in pvp/pve - that's not only "risk vs reward", but a meaningful choice on the part of each member of the group instead of a selfish "I'm in my best gear so it doesn't matter what yalls are wearing".

What I don't get is why you think gear sets would prevent this, but individual item choice wouldn't.

That makes literally no sense.

Noaani wrote: »

What I don't get is why you think gear sets would prevent this, but individual item choice wouldn't.

That makes literally no sense.

I might be wrong in this assumption, but I think it'll be harder to find the best and most optimal party+gear set composition than class+gear combo setup. And I can't even make a fact-based assumption on which side Ashes is leaning on, because we have 0 info about classes or gear or augments or anything else really.

To interject into nikr and noaani's individual gear vs gear set bonus discussion.

I understand the want of a set bonus as like just a bit of a cherry on top idea, and i also see, then everyone would just use the same set anti meta argument.

Maybe there is a best of both worlds.

What if there was lore based peices that got a bonus from one or two other peices but never a full set. A full set with an over power bonus would "build itself" take away all the thought involved and kind of make metas form, where pieces that went together, you lose the variability if your gloves and pants have to be together, so you lose out on other potential stuff

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

What if there was lore based peices that got a bonus from one or two other peices but never a full set. A full set with an over power bonus would "build itself" take away all the thought involved and kind of make metas form, where pieces that went together, you lose the variability if your gloves and pants have to be together, so you lose out on other potential stuff

Metas form when there's a ton of positive variety to choose from. And with gear being easily changeable, the meta will definitely set in sooner or later.

But considering how long it takes to lvl classes, if you have sets with pros and cons, across the whole tier spectrum, the meta would be way harder to properly figure out. Or at least that's how it seems to me.

If Intrepid decides to go for +- singular gear pieces and let us completely mismatch everything and all - I'll live with it.

I would rather see individual peices without set bonuses. Mostly because with their cosmetics system, anything can be made to look as a set anyway. Why limit players to simply what goes together

mcstackerson

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

I mean on some stage your're right. People with higher level gear could beat up people with lower level gear.... ill point out that you level up in the game too. If gear cant bloat your power because its unfair to those with weaker gear than leveling needs to be pointless too so people cant outlevel each other....

I think this has stopped being a rational discussion.

I don't think you are making leveling pointless my removing the free stats it usually rewards since it would still be rewarding skills. As you level, you are still augmenting your playstyle with the new skills you get as well as getting access to more utility.

I think it more irrational to promote a system that limits who people can play with. Yes, there should be rewards, even some vertical rewards, but i think some restraint should be used to limit how much they divide the playerbase and where possible, other types of rewards should be used.