Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

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Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

I mentioned it in one of the previous posts. To me, it seems easier to balance around predesigned sets that have a variety of pros+cons combos rather than having each and every gear piece have it's own combo that could then be combined with 7 more gear piece combos and you might get some imbalanced boost to whatever stat.

Yeah, but this is the point of an MMORPG. Giving players choices.

It would also be easier to give players specific set class kits with no options- like a MOBA - but that is not what MMO's are about.

NiKr wrote: »

And it also either requires devs to randomize those potential combos or design unique ones for each piece of gear. And then on top of that, you have the crafting dials that could boost said combos even higher.

Well, yeah the developers need to do their job.

Keep in mind, I am speaking from the perspective of a game that adds expansions every year. Each expansion adds hundreds of items, many of which have new stats and/or effects.

The argument that the developers would have to do some work is not a valid reason to remove player choice.

I'm not arguing against negative effects - some gear having negative effects is a fairly well established notion. I am saying there is literally no reason why gear sets should be the meta, rather than individual pieces of gear.

Ferryman

Otr wrote: »

Ferryman wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Ferryman wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Ferryman wrote: »

If devs want to make the game more casual friendly they should look at the open world PvP rules. I am not saying they should, but making gear less valueable does not help because they will be ganked anyway.

Being ganked once in a while is bad?
For that there is the corruption system and bounty hunters.
If I join the game late, I will stick near more experienced players. I'll avoid traveling alone if I have valuable stuff on me.
Veterans will not earn much looting a noob anyway.

The Eve Online advice for everybody is:
Don't fly ships you do not afford to lose.
Even in HighSec you was not really safe but only the very rich had reason to be afraid.

I think very rich AoC players should pay for protection. We should not worry about them

I did not say it is bad, and I am personally fine with the planned system. However, I am just saying that IF the developers want the game to become more casual friendly, then open world PvP is the thing which pushes some casual players away. Some players do not want to PvP at all or they want it to be 100% consensual, and you cannot change that mindset to match with yours by thinking it from your perspective. 😉

I see. You are right. I cannot change some peoples's point of view. Sometime they even understand my pov but they like to debate

I am sure that some people understands and I understand your pov as well. I have Albion Online background and therefore, something similar with your Eve experience. I do not mind if there would be less restrictive open world PvP rules, however, I am also aware that this is not the direction where devs want to take the game. Even the open world PvP will be significantly restricted with the corruption system it will still be enough to turn away some casual players, especially PvE centric people. Those who dislikes to PvP in any form can easily pass even they would otherwise be interested of the game. And that mind set is really hard or even impossible to change.

I wonder if players are really part of an extreme PvE / PvP category.
Could it be that we see on forums the vocal extremes while those who can do both are silent?

Some are but of course there is the middle ground as well. And for PvE centric players the worst kind of PvP is nonconsensual so basically being a target for gankers. This is not ofc AoC special rather the usual case in any MMORPG where open world PvP is involved. Anyway, it is getting enough off topic so better stop here. 😅

DeviLzFury_Gaming

Dygz wrote: »

I mean...
Ashes is balanced for 8-person groups. Seems easy enough for casual-time players to be in a group with hardcore-time players. Also, seems easy enough for them to have helpful friends who are hardcore-time players... even if they aren't all in a formal group.

In Ashes, power will likely be determined by Level, points in Passive Skills, points in Active Skills, points in Weapon Skills, Armor, Weapon(s), Augments and Enchantments.

Casual-time players can still make friends with other citizens who can help them acquire the gear they need.
I don't think we should be worried about gear overpowering the other factors that provide characters with power - until we play/test and determine that the devs need to re-balance their design.

There is alot of good conversation going on around the OP of this, but this right here really highlights my feeling on this topic.

Yes there needs to be a "balance" for the Casual gamer ( such as myself) but also there needs to be a meaningful reason for grinding gear. It should feel like the item you get gives you that boost and you as a player should learn to boost your skill with it. People who have more time in game should not be punished for the casual player and the casual player should not be punished for being casual. How do we fix that?

Well for the people who have time AKA Hardcore player they have the advantage out the gate of having the time to grind and get loot and such. So yes they will be able to crush a casual player 1v1 that just makes sense to me. What also needs to be taken into account is hardcore players will not always be looking at casuals to attack them, they want a challenge to their skills and gear and will seek like minded encounters.

Now Casual players might seem at a disadvantage if you only factor in time, and you would be right. however a casual player has a lot more to help boost them in sever. Know your skills invest time in learning your class, gear yourself as best you can and know how to use to world to your advantage if an when someone "better" than you attacks. More over casuals can find other people of like minds to hang with/ run with. For example the guild i made is based around casual to hardcore players who all work together. This is an option casual should look to. Also we have started alliances with other casual guilds to help boost our "numbers" in sever and chances of having backup as needed. This also helps the casual person get the ability to farm/ grind for better gear.

We need to be more creative in finding solutions to bridging the gap between a hardcore player base and casuals. This has to happen on Dev side and the Community side for a Balance to be found. We can not just say hardcore players need to be "nerfed" because they have more time than casual and therefore will ruin the game for them. Casuals need to invest their time also into more than just grinding or questing. Everyone should experience the full game and what it has to offer. Alliances, corruption flagging, Bounty hunting, talk to people, a casual might be the best crafter in the sever and negotiates peace with the biggest PVP guild for free passage and protection all based on trade with them.

Think outside the box and we will all have our place in Verra.

mcstackerson

DeviLzFury wrote: »

We need to be more creative in finding solutions to bridging the gap between a hardcore player base and casuals. This has to happen on Dev side and the Community side for a Balance to be found. We can not just say hardcore players need to be "nerfed" because they have more time than casual and therefore will ruin the game for them. Casuals need to invest their time also into more than just grinding or questing. Everyone should experience the full game and what it has to offer. Alliances, corruption flagging, Bounty hunting, talk to people, a casual might be the best crafter in the sever and negotiates peace with the biggest PVP guild for free passage and protection all based on trade with them.

Think outside the box and we will all have our place in Verra.

I don't think this should be seen as a nerf. Power is relative and against an opponent of equal power, the amount you scale doesn't matter. All scaling does is reduce the pool of players you can have a competitive fight with. Unless you consider being able to overwhelm other players with numbers as a reward, i don't see how you can see this as a nerf.

I don't see this as trying to prevent hardcore players from ruining the game for casuals, i see it as allowing casual players to play with hardcore players. If you believe casuals should be able to experience the full game then they need to be able to play with everyone.

This isn't thinking outside of the box but the issue is created by the amount players scale so the solution would be to reduce that scaling and give out rewards that don't directly effect power.

Ludullu

mcstackerson wrote: »

I don't think this should be seen as a nerf. Power is relative and against an opponent of equal power, the amount you scale doesn't matter. All scaling does is reduce the pool of players you can have a competitive fight with. Unless you consider being able to overwhelm other players with numbers as a reward, i don't see how you can see this as a nerf.

I don't see this as trying to prevent hardcore players from ruining the game for casuals, i see it as allowing casual players to play with hardcore players. If you believe casuals should be able to experience the full game then they need to be able to play with everyone.

From the pov of L2 vet it looks like this: if I see a dude that's 2 tiers in gear lower than me, but I know that the game's gear scaling is very tight - I'll probably go and fight that dude, because I'd be fighting against his skill rather than just his gear.

If we have the same in Ashes, all the casual players, who don't have the skill for the pvp or don't want to be bothered with pvp most of the time, will complain a lot about being attacked by stronger dudes. Yes, you'll allow a skill-hardcore player to fight on more equal terms with better-geared people (that's what was cool about L2 imo), but all the casuals will suffer more from it.

But if we have at least steps of scaling (say, t1 and 2 are close but t3 is a fair bit more powerful, and then t3-4 a close, while t5 and legend uniques are at the top and stronger still), we might keep the casuals from complaining and give hardcore pvpers who want to test their target's skills a better indicator for their targets.

I myself would prefer the L2 balancing, just because I am a hardcore player who will not only put countless hours into the game right from the start but also try to learn literally everything there is to learn about all the classes and their mechanics/skills - so tight gear scaling is way more beneficial for me. But I would also prefer the game to live for as long as possible and I feel like some proper power lvl spacing would serve that goal well.

PenguinPaladin

mcstackerson wrote: »

[If you believe casuals should be able to experience the full game........

Having the option to do something and having the ability to do something is not the same thing. I believe everyone should be able to try and do great things in ashes. Someone has to lose. Its more a matter to making something to do that is fun, for each type of player. And thats what i believe ashes is trying to do aswell.

Have the pvp there for the pvp players. Have the pve for the pve players. Have the stay at home managment of your freehold for those who want that. Have the animal breeding for those who want that. Have crafting for those who want that.

Hypothetical- Someone with literally no skill and no time to spend on the game, should not be rewarded.... thats life.

Dygz

It's just ridiculous to keep equating casuals with having no skill.
"The casuals have to lose."
(◔_◔)

PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

It's just ridiculous to keep equating casuals with having no skill.
"The casuals have to lose."
:roll_eyes:

Thats actually part of my argument. The strawman "casual" seems to be a brainless, timeless, chap. Who some people feel need to be protected, hand fed, and looked after. Just make a good game. Casuals will be there playing it right next to the hard core players... because its a good game. Opportunity is more important than garenteed

Im not saying the casuals have to lose. Im saying someone does, and if we're going to look at evening the playing field so much that a player cant feel powerful, we've destroyed the very point in playing the game.

Ludullu

I think Josh Strife Haeys' video explained it well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGCFxHUsSGU

It's more about the time you put into the knowledge of the game and application of it. A casual player won't know the precise details of class interactions, so of course they won't be as good in pvp as a dude who knows that stuff. And on top of that, the knowledge dude has spent more time honing his skills in the game while casual player most likely didn't.

And all of that is on top of time invested into gear. So imo yes, casuals will lose in most cases, just by the nature of their existence.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

It's more about the time you put into the knowledge of the game and application of it. A casual player won't know the precise details of class interactions, so of course they won't be as good in pvp as a dude who knows that stuff. And on top of that, the knowledge dude has spent more time honing his skills in the game while casual player most likely didn't.

That's just elitist bullshit.
Especially considering a lot of current casual time players used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge back in the day.

Supposedly this thread is about max level v max level.

PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

It's more about the time you put into the knowledge of the game and application of it. A casual player won't know the precise details of class interactions, so of course they won't be as good in pvp as a dude who knows that stuff. And on top of that, the knowledge dude has spent more time honing his skills in the game while casual player most likely didn't.

That's just elitist bullshit.

Its funny. My definition of a casual, is someone who gets by well enough, that they dont look further into what they need to do to strengthen their character and so on.... like in my head a casual is someone who just playes, and they "float" on their decent skills to the point which they dont go looking into every aspect of the game otherwise.

And with that definition in mind. I see this gear topic as a casual saying, i dont want to have to go out of my way and try to compete with the very best. I want the very best to hardly be better than me without effort. To which i say.... no? If you want to be the best, and compete with the best, you are by definition, not a casual.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

That's just elitist bullshit.
Especially considering a lot of current casual time players used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge back in the day.

And I'm sure that in all those other games where they were hardcore, they'd have way more skills than casuals in that game. But if you come into this game w/o a ton of research on it and then not spend a ton of time learning about it or just playing it, the chances are - you'll lose in pvp against a person who did all of that.

PenguinPaladin

Im nearly proposing there are more than 2 types of players. Crazy i know.

Hard core players- that sweat literally everything
Sweats- that look into how to improve their play in the areas they get mad at.

Casuals- who do what they like and just develop themselves over time without any real effort

And care bears, who complain others are so far ahead that they will never catch up.

And more..... because people are of all kinds......

Dygz

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Its funny. My definition of a casual, is someone who gets by well enough, that they dont look further into what they need to do to strengthen their character and so on.... like in my head a casual is someone who just playes, and they "float" on their decent skills to the point which they dont go looking into every aspect of the game otherwise.

And with that definition in mind. I see this gear topic as a casual saying, i dont want to have to go out of my way and try to compete with the very best. I want the very best to hardly be better than me without effort. To which i say.... no? If you want to be the best, and compete with the best, you are by definition, not a casual.

There are at least two spectrums: time and challenge.
For instance, I am hardcore time/casual challenge.
But, again, lots of people who used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge are now casual time/hardcore challenge. Some of them are now casual time/casual challenge.
But, casual challenge can also mean lack of interest; not lack of skill.

You don't necessrily have to "want to compete with the best" to acquire the best gear and actually be a formidable opponent in PvP - especially objective-based PvP.
Players are going to be seeking to acquire max level gear - especially at max level. They will also be seeking to build their character(s) to fulfill their vision of an ideal character.

But, again, Ashes is balanced around an 8-person group.
It's not like 8-person groups will be either all casual challenge players or all hardcore challenge players.
It's not like it will always be casual challenge players v hardcore challenge players.
It's not like casual time players or casual challenge players cannot acquire BiS gear from hardcore time or hardcore challenge players.
Ashes has a Mentor system - which means casual players (and low level/newbie) players do not have to only rely on themselves to learn combat tactics and strategies.

Also, with regard to gear disparity...
There will also be occasions when the gear disparity is due to a hardcore time/hardcore challenge player playing an alt that has not yet acquired that character(s) BiS gear.

None of which necessarily changes whatever concerns people may have about how gear is designed.
But, it really has nothing to do with casual v hardcore.

And, I mean,
There all kinds of people who complain about anything.
I dunno what being a carebear has to do with "not being able to catch up".

PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

But, it really has nothing to do with casual v hardcore.

I agree, thats why i said "someone has to lose"

Someone, will be losing, no matter what, And i would perfer a game where gear is as cool as it can be, over a game where obtaining something doesnt really matter. Someone is still losing in the end anyway

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

That's just elitist bullshit.
Especially considering a lot of current casual time players used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge back in the day.

And I'm sure that in all those other games where they were hardcore, they'd have way more skills than casuals in that game. But if you come into this game w/o a ton of research on it and then not spend a ton of time learning about it or just playing it, the chances are - you'll lose in pvp against a person who did all of that.

Well, you can be sure all you want, but...
No. That really has nothing to do with casual v hardcore.
Especially in a game that is balanced for objective-based PvP and 8-person groups.

CROW3

Hm.. I'm kind of with @dygz on this - looking at gear contribution to overall power isn't a binary casual v. hardcore conversation.

Ludullu

If gear is scaled in a way that each tier is quite more powerful than the previous one, then player power will be determined by gear tier (excluding the skill, because that takes time on its own). Higher tiers will be locked not only by harder pve, but also pvp. Both of those things take time and skill (which takes time). Any higher tiered gear will be more expensive and will be rarer than the previous tier. So it won't be as easy as "just buy higher tier lol". Because acquiring big amounts of money will either require time or being hardcore in the money-making skill in the game (playing the market, going deep in the artisan skills - both take time).

So all in all, player strength will be related to their time investment. Yes, some time-casual players might have super hardcore friends that will for whatever reason give them BiS gear w/o asking anything in return. But that kind of interaction would mean that the casual player has friends in the top guild on the server, which already gives them a huge advantage over other casual players, but that's just how it be sometimes.

So all I'm trying to say is time-hardcore players will always be ahead and the only thing we can change is how far they are and what the influence of that difference is. Imo tight scaling leads to more pvp, which, I hear, annoys the non-pvpers. Wider scaling leads to bigger difference in power between time-dependent players, but it also allows the non-pvpers to enjoy the game at their own pace w/o worrying that they'll get attacked every day.

And allegedly casual-time/hardcore-challenge peeps might be completely fine with getting pvped every day, but what's the ratio between them and full casual players? I hope Intrepid knows that ratio (at least roughly) and account for it in their design accordingly. Cause we all know that the closer to release we get, the louder the full casuals will become (they always do).

Dygz

Partially determined by gear tier.
I understand what you are trying to say - and you are saying it.
Just, what you are saying is false.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Partially determined by gear tier.

Everything else is skill (both mechanical and build-related), and those things require time or being hardcore about game knowledge (which kinda takes time too).

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