Azherae wrote: » To be fair, I feel like 'the Feedback and Discussion forum of a game in Active Development' is one of the places where this is SORT OF not true. Because people who dislike something normally advocate against it. And then usually you must advocate FOR it in order to be considered or it may be overlooked. Sure you could just go 'well let's just all say one thing we like and let the devs figure it out', but idk... seems like a poor approach to me.
NishUK wrote: » I need a definition of difficult PvE though!
NiKr wrote: » NishUK wrote: » L2 did have real PvE, it had really hard PvE you could never solo and you pretty much always needed the trinity group to tackle and for the legendary bosses around the world you needed 6+ 9 man trinity parties. The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then?? Noaani wants EVERQUEST!
NishUK wrote: » L2 did have real PvE, it had really hard PvE you could never solo and you pretty much always needed the trinity group to tackle and for the legendary bosses around the world you needed 6+ 9 man trinity parties. The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then??
Azherae wrote: » Well, I really don't know what the distinction is, in your mind...
Azherae wrote: » I personally don't play Power Fantasy games, so I wouldn't really understand. If Ashes turns out to be one, then I won't play. And to expand on that, since it might help you understand what 'RP' means too... If a group of players has to adapt, together, to an encounter, they experience 'role playing' subconsciously even if they don't talk about it, because the human brain must simulate what the other party members are going to do, in order to be successful. If they simulate incorrectly, usually one of two things happens. A. They argue about it and the group breaks up. B. They discuss it (roleplaying, whether in character or not) and update their subconscious understanding of each other. This is why you'll never find ME on the side of things like 'MOBAs are not MMOs'. I personally consider MOBAs to be PvP RPGs. The lack of persistence is what separates them from what Ashes is, not the Roleplaying part. So yeah, for future reference, if I talk about 'speed of a game' vs 'RP' it's 'the ability to simulate the actions of others and the time to discuss it if your simulations are wrong'. Some people don't 'RP' by that definition even in MOBAs and that's fine. I just don't see the point of making a game for them.
Dygz wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Well, I really don't know what the distinction is, in your mind... For one thing combat tactics are just one component of RP. L2 combat is as different from LoL combat as L is from R. Maybe some people can't tell the difference? Yes. MMORPG combat needs to be slow enough that groups can discuss and synergize tactics. That could also be true of a MOBA. But, the tactics of a MOBA are like a cross between an RTS and the classes of an RPG. Elite Dangerous seems closer to an MMOFPS than an MMORPG. But, first and foremost, Elite Dangerous is a Space Simulator.
NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » There is literally no proximity or orientation mechanic involved at all, among other things that games of the time were doing. Here at the timestamp, is that not an orientation mechanic? Or do you mean smth else? Classes have those kinds of abilities too. And is proximity smth like "you get hit for 100 if you're 5 meters away from the attacker, but you get hit for 50 if you're 10m away?" They added a reverse of that for archers in a later update, but yeah, outside of that there's not really any proximity play.
Noaani wrote: » There is literally no proximity or orientation mechanic involved at all, among other things that games of the time were doing.
Azherae wrote: » Ah, so it's the tactics of the combat you refer to normally in these situations when talking explicitly about 'types of Combat that do not belong in an MMO'?
Azherae wrote: » 1. Get the attention of the enemy with a close range shot from a weapon that disrupts their targeting, close enough that it could be the equivalent of melee, for example, they're too big to miss so I don't have to aim much. 2. Get them to target me so that I can use the superior mobility of my ship to take their attention off teammates. 3. Use a healing laser to replenish the shield health or Repair Limpets to repair the Hull Damage of those teammates while doing #2 and coordinating to protect allied NPCs while they defeat the enemy that I'm distracting. Just ONE question. Is this CLOSER to MMOFPS Gameplay or MOBA gameplay, to you, tactically? I don't even need a comparison to MMORPG gameplay of any kind.
Azherae wrote: » I'm not 'aiming', really, I'm playing a healing and evasion tanking role, with some disruption/'CC' on the Tanking side. This is a specific build I've made for this purpose and practice with. In my (abstractor) mind, I do not view this as different from other things I do in other games. So... question above. I will disengage and leave you be whether or not you even answer it, and I will not ask for any further clarification of your answer.
Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » NishUK wrote: » L2 did have real PvE, it had really hard PvE you could never solo and you pretty much always needed the trinity group to tackle and for the legendary bosses around the world you needed 6+ 9 man trinity parties. The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then?? Noaani wants EVERQUEST! Nah, what I want is a game where there will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish.
Merek wrote: » Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » NishUK wrote: » L2 did have real PvE, it had really hard PvE you could never solo and you pretty much always needed the trinity group to tackle and for the legendary bosses around the world you needed 6+ 9 man trinity parties. The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then?? Noaani wants EVERQUEST! Nah, what I want is a game where there will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. I agree with wanting raiding to be difficult, even though your idea of difficulty leans more towards completion rates rather than content or game systems. I'd still like to have an example of a raid in any MMO you consider to be "endgame" content, you clearly have a specific few in mind.
Nepoke wrote: » This whole thread is a fever dream. Azherae wrote: » I personally don't play Power Fantasy games, so I wouldn't really understand. If Ashes turns out to be one, then I won't play. And to expand on that, since it might help you understand what 'RP' means too... If a group of players has to adapt, together, to an encounter, they experience 'role playing' subconsciously even if they don't talk about it, because the human brain must simulate what the other party members are going to do, in order to be successful. If they simulate incorrectly, usually one of two things happens. A. They argue about it and the group breaks up. B. They discuss it (roleplaying, whether in character or not) and update their subconscious understanding of each other. This is why you'll never find ME on the side of things like 'MOBAs are not MMOs'. I personally consider MOBAs to be PvP RPGs. The lack of persistence is what separates them from what Ashes is, not the Roleplaying part. So yeah, for future reference, if I talk about 'speed of a game' vs 'RP' it's 'the ability to simulate the actions of others and the time to discuss it if your simulations are wrong'. Some people don't 'RP' by that definition even in MOBAs and that's fine. I just don't see the point of making a game for them. With this definition, isn't pretty much anything multiplayer an RPG? In CSGO people need to make calls about their movements and their enemies (and very commonly argue about it and break up.) Is CSGO an MMO RPG? Also your definition of role playing seems very subjective to you and I think 99% of the people who RP would disagree with the definition. I think what you're describing is cooperation. In any case about the actual topic: I don't see Ashes action combat making "top tier" pve much harder to develop compared to strictly tab targetting. The main differences are that without tab targetting you can expect less dps from the players and with player collision players can't stack up in tiny areas to avoid mechanics. Additionally, since Intrepid is planning on not allowing add-ons, the fights don't need overly complex dances while juggling multiple raid wiping mechanics to provide a challenge. Here's a general recipe you can theorycraft with: Take a medium difficulty WoW raid boss. Lower the boss hp to compensate for less dps. Decrease the aoe sizes slightly. If some mechanic needs stacking, give players more space. Nerf some of the mechanics that 100% require an add-on. Boom you have an encounter that works with action combat. The difficulty comes from there being no add-on to give you exact information about everything constantly and having to coordinate group movement while considering collision. Open world bosses should be much simpler due to most of the difficulty coming from PvP while also trying to not die to the boss. The alpha 1 ice dragon is a good example with the attacks being wide but relatively simple. Anyway the territory is pretty uncharted with few good examples. One thing to study would be the 20 man raid in TERA, which is one option how Ashes action combat could look:https://youtube.com/watch?v=r-sDcIQMFdI Similar design could be easily scaled to 50+ players.
Otr wrote: » NishUK wrote: » NiKr wrote: » But outside of that L2 really didn't have much of PvE. You just stood in one place and unloaded onto the boss/mob. There weren't any complex mechanics or intricate combat designs for mobs. Pretty much all bosses were just thiccque dmg piñatas. ....... It still needed trinity parties, you didn't need to shout about how lame enemies were god damn dude! You know as well as I do their are people with monocles in this forum sipping on their cups of tea, stroking their moustaches and defining what a true intellectual PvE experience is. There are indeed some jerk people on this forum.
NishUK wrote: » NiKr wrote: » But outside of that L2 really didn't have much of PvE. You just stood in one place and unloaded onto the boss/mob. There weren't any complex mechanics or intricate combat designs for mobs. Pretty much all bosses were just thiccque dmg piñatas. ....... It still needed trinity parties, you didn't need to shout about how lame enemies were god damn dude! You know as well as I do their are people with monocles in this forum sipping on their cups of tea, stroking their moustaches and defining what a true intellectual PvE experience is.
NiKr wrote: » But outside of that L2 really didn't have much of PvE. You just stood in one place and unloaded onto the boss/mob. There weren't any complex mechanics or intricate combat designs for mobs. Pretty much all bosses were just thiccque dmg piñatas.
234Graph wrote: » Lately I've been seeing this sentiment that action combat doesn't suit PVE and I heavily disagree. Neverwinter and especially "Dragons Dogma online" xombat worked extremely well with pve. This isn't a post saying Ashes should lean for Action combat only, I'm just making the statement that Action combat can work well in PVE.
Dygz wrote: » Um. Who said that action combat "can't work" in an MMORPG. ANd what does "can't work" mean?
Mag7spy wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Um. Who said that action combat "can't work" in an MMORPG. ANd what does "can't work" mean? Meaning can't work as effective and better than Tab target.
Ferryman wrote: » About the action-moba-MMORPG debate.. I have a few examples of MMORPG games where combat works well. Albion Online has MOBA style combat and can handle massive zergs as well. TERA has (or had) a good action combat system but that was the only thing they did right imo. Lost Ark has this some kind action system which includes some MOBA elements.. I guess. MOBAs are typically isometric games so I am not sure how much from there can be taken for Ashes, but perhaps some skillshot ideas.
