PvP In Ashes

Ashes of Creation is going to be a modern day MMO that truly plans on being a PvX game. This is reflected in both the game design and by information provided to us from the development livestreams.

Most proposed PvE systems will have a complementary PvP system in place to enhance it. Node progression will have node sieges, caravans will have the ability for caravan raids, most dungeons/raids will be open world and susceptible to fights over the bosses, etc. Removal of any of these PvP types will undermine both the difficulty, and the enjoyment of a lot of these activities.

I have recently seen posts on the forums about why we should remove open world unflagged PvP, why we should segregate PvP tiers, why gear difference will make PvP unfun for casual players. The game systems need to be tested as the developers envisioned them before we propose ways to fix said systems. We cannot pretend to know what changes we need to these systems prior to testing them. That being said, removing or severely changing to a PvP flagging system, or reducing the effectiveness of gear aren't the solutions, fine tuning the corruption system is. If during testing you believe that ganking is happening too frequently, increasing the penalty from the corruption system will increase the risk of PKing without increasing the reward will further discourage players. PvP is going to be an extremely small portion of your gameplay for those who don't wish to engage in it, so limiting it (prior to testing) for others because you might not enjoy it comes off as selfish.

Steven and the entire development team are working hard to give all MMO players something that they can enjoy. Whether it's PvE, PvP, RPing, or gold making, there is something for everyone. The reason this game is so heavily anticipated is because of the ideas that Steven and the team proposed to us and a vast majority of players believe they are good ideas. Despite that this game isn't going to be for everyone, and that's fine. That being said leaving your usual comfort zone may be a good idea, and you may even find out you do enjoy some of the things you are preemptively trying to stop or limit.

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Shilee

Azherae wrote: »

This. I'm hoping Intrepid figures out something to make people WANT to try PvP, and want to learn it, from an enjoyment perspective, somehow, Or we're just going to keep seeing those same complaints all the time. Now, does that matter? Who knows. Maybe those people will all just not play, but I really hope they do something (my suggested method doesn't fit within Ashes very well so I too, am just waiting for Corruption tuning).

But in the end if you can't help people learn to LIKE actually being involved in PvP, I feel it'd be hard to sustain a game with such a freeform take on it.

Even if people refuse to participate in PvP I'd want them to play the game regardless. More players means more and faster development from the devs, and more people to farm materials for me to take

CROW3

These pvp threads are so thick with angst these days and we’re still pre-A2. Lighten up folks, it’s a game.

Player combat is going to be a blast.

SirChancelot

Deathbreath wrote: »

I have no desire to ask for changes in a system I haven't seen in action yet.

That being said, I have zero faith in the open world pvp feeling good or balanced or even interesting. People don't want fair fights, they want to steamroll for easy loot.

I'm just hoping everything else about the game is good enough to make up for it. And if it isn't? Oh well. Just add it to the list of other games I don't play. Ain't the world of the world.

Hopefully the corruption system makes people pump the breaks on that steamroll for easy loot.
I'd like to see more corruption applied for the more one sided the fight was, not sure how that would be gauged though.

Ludullu

SirChancelot wrote: »

Hopefully the corruption system makes people pump the breaks on that steamroll for easy loot.
I'd like to see more corruption applied for the more one sided the fight was, not sure how that would be gauged though.

Wasn't that an issue in BDO at some point (maybe still)? Where people would punish their attackers by removing gear so that the attacker got more karma. This kind of mechanic is a real slippery slope. You'd probably have to disable gear switching when you're in combat, but that brings some problems too.

Azherae

Shilee wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This. I'm hoping Intrepid figures out something to make people WANT to try PvP, and want to learn it, from an enjoyment perspective, somehow, Or we're just going to keep seeing those same complaints all the time. Now, does that matter? Who knows. Maybe those people will all just not play, but I really hope they do something (my suggested method doesn't fit within Ashes very well so I too, am just waiting for Corruption tuning).

But in the end if you can't help people learn to LIKE actually being involved in PvP, I feel it'd be hard to sustain a game with such a freeform take on it.

Even if people refuse to participate in PvP I'd want them to play the game regardless. More players means more and faster development from the devs, and more people to farm materials for me to take

I'm not sure how serious you are here, but remember that saying things like this is technically 'the problem' for a lot of the people one might be trying to encourage.

Or maybe it's just me actually trying to do that and you really do just want more prey.

Shilee

Azherae wrote: »

Shilee wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This. I'm hoping Intrepid figures out something to make people WANT to try PvP, and want to learn it, from an enjoyment perspective, somehow, Or we're just going to keep seeing those same complaints all the time. Now, does that matter? Who knows. Maybe those people will all just not play, but I really hope they do something (my suggested method doesn't fit within Ashes very well so I too, am just waiting for Corruption tuning).

But in the end if you can't help people learn to LIKE actually being involved in PvP, I feel it'd be hard to sustain a game with such a freeform take on it.

Even if people refuse to participate in PvP I'd want them to play the game regardless. More players means more and faster development from the devs, and more people to farm materials for me to take

I'm not sure how serious you are here, but remember that saying things like this is technically 'the problem' for a lot of the people one might be trying to encourage.

Or maybe it's just me actually trying to do that and you really do just want more prey.

I do plan on participating in PvP and attacking caravans, and more players will fuel the type of content I think I would enjoy the most, but I wasn't being serious in that statement. The bigger the player base is more income for the devs, making their development for future updates faster and more polished.

Azherae

Shilee wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Shilee wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This. I'm hoping Intrepid figures out something to make people WANT to try PvP, and want to learn it, from an enjoyment perspective, somehow, Or we're just going to keep seeing those same complaints all the time. Now, does that matter? Who knows. Maybe those people will all just not play, but I really hope they do something (my suggested method doesn't fit within Ashes very well so I too, am just waiting for Corruption tuning).

But in the end if you can't help people learn to LIKE actually being involved in PvP, I feel it'd be hard to sustain a game with such a freeform take on it.

Even if people refuse to participate in PvP I'd want them to play the game regardless. More players means more and faster development from the devs, and more people to farm materials for me to take

I'm not sure how serious you are here, but remember that saying things like this is technically 'the problem' for a lot of the people one might be trying to encourage.

Or maybe it's just me actually trying to do that and you really do just want more prey.

I do plan on participating in PvP and attacking caravans, and more players will fuel the type of content I think I would enjoy the most, but I wasn't being serious in that statement. The bigger the player base is more income for the devs, making their development for future updates faster and more polished.

Agreed. Just didn't want you losing your credibility over a joke.

It's fairly easy for people to see a thread like this as just 'bait' to get them interested, as I'm sure you probably know. Some people don't care about 'spooking' or 'scaring off' people like that, though, so some people would probably have met the person who isn't 'joking' when they say it.

Bear in mind that for some people, competitive games really are just one GIGANTIC losing streak, so they wouldn't read between the lines to perceive your comment as 'well obviously I might lose, too'.

Shilee

Azherae wrote: »

Shilee wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Shilee wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This. I'm hoping Intrepid figures out something to make people WANT to try PvP, and want to learn it, from an enjoyment perspective, somehow, Or we're just going to keep seeing those same complaints all the time. Now, does that matter? Who knows. Maybe those people will all just not play, but I really hope they do something (my suggested method doesn't fit within Ashes very well so I too, am just waiting for Corruption tuning).

But in the end if you can't help people learn to LIKE actually being involved in PvP, I feel it'd be hard to sustain a game with such a freeform take on it.

Even if people refuse to participate in PvP I'd want them to play the game regardless. More players means more and faster development from the devs, and more people to farm materials for me to take

I'm not sure how serious you are here, but remember that saying things like this is technically 'the problem' for a lot of the people one might be trying to encourage.

Or maybe it's just me actually trying to do that and you really do just want more prey.

I do plan on participating in PvP and attacking caravans, and more players will fuel the type of content I think I would enjoy the most, but I wasn't being serious in that statement. The bigger the player base is more income for the devs, making their development for future updates faster and more polished.

Agreed. Just didn't want you losing your credibility over a joke.

It's fairly easy for people to see a thread like this as just 'bait' to get them interested, as I'm sure you probably know. Some people don't care about 'spooking' or 'scaring off' people like that, though, so some people would probably have met the person who isn't 'joking' when they say it.

Bear in mind that for some people, competitive games really are just one GIGANTIC losing streak, so they wouldn't read between the lines to perceive your comment as 'well obviously I might lose, too'.

Yeah I see how it could come off that way. I generally don't like how territorial some people come off when talking about this game. We can disagree with others without completely trying to get them to leave the community. I think it comes from people being super passionate about this game (myself included), and want to make sure people don't encourage the devs to change the things that made them excited for the game in the first place.

CROW3

Shilee wrote: »

Yeah I see how it could come off that way. I generally don't like how territorial some people come off when talking about this game. We can disagree with others without completely trying to get them to leave the community. I think it comes from people being super passionate about this game (myself included), and want to make sure people don't encourage the devs to change the things that made them excited for the game in the first place.

It ebbs and flows. Conversations tend to get more heated after new content is spotlighted, which is fine. It’s still a pretty good community, prickles and all.

To the topic at hand, people are going to die and lose a % of certificates, but you’ll earn it back. You will get ganked. And you can participate later in hunting down gankers. The folks who lose in a battle will win others. It’s fine. It makes the game world more interesting.

At this stage there is so much more to be tested than overly concerned about. Best thing is to hang out, participate in some threads, and if you can, sign up to test.

Azherae

CROW3 wrote: »

Shilee wrote: »

Yeah I see how it could come off that way. I generally don't like how territorial some people come off when talking about this game. We can disagree with others without completely trying to get them to leave the community. I think it comes from people being super passionate about this game (myself included), and want to make sure people don't encourage the devs to change the things that made them excited for the game in the first place.

It ebbs and flows. Conversations tend to get more heated after new content is spotlighted, which is fine. It’s still a pretty good community, prickles and all.

To the topic at hand, people are going to die and lose a % of certificates, but you’ll earn it back. You will get ganked. And you can participate later in hunting down gankers. The folks who lose in a battle will win others. It’s fine. It makes the game world more interesting.

At this stage there is so much more to be tested than overly concerned about. Best thing is to hang out, participate in some threads, and if you can, sign up to test.

On the one hand, I REALLY REALLY want to call you out on this.

On the other, I am oddly glad that some people in the world can still believe this.

CROW3

Hah! Totally. 🤗 I’ve been much more prickly about one topic or another than I wish at times. That said, there’s only so many concerns we can stress about without more time getting our hands dirty.

You and I both see data as bedrock, and there’s limited sediment beneath our boots right now.

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

This. I'm hoping Intrepid figures out something to make people WANT to try PvP, and want to learn it, from an enjoyment perspective, somehow, Or we're just going to keep seeing those same complaints all the time. Now, does that matter? Who knows. Maybe those people will all just not play, but I really hope they do something (my suggested method doesn't fit within Ashes very well so I too, am just waiting for Corruption tuning).

But in the end if you can't help people learn to LIKE actually being involved in PvP, I feel it'd be hard to sustain a game with such a freeform take on it.

You can't make people who don't enjoy eating fish eyes enjoy eating fish eyes.

Dygz

CROW3 wrote: »

To the topic at hand, people are going to die and lose a % of certificates, but you’ll earn it back. You will get ganked. And you can participate later in hunting down gankers. The folks who lose in a battle will win others. It’s fine. It makes the game world more interesting.

At this stage there is so much more to be tested than overly concerned about. Best thing is to hang out, participate in some threads, and if you can, sign up to test.

People who don't enjoy PvP are not going to want to hunt down gankers... and won't find that type of gameplay to be interesting.

SongRune

Dygz wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This. I'm hoping Intrepid figures out something to make people WANT to try PvP, and want to learn it, from an enjoyment perspective, somehow, Or we're just going to keep seeing those same complaints all the time. Now, does that matter? Who knows. Maybe those people will all just not play, but I really hope they do something (my suggested method doesn't fit within Ashes very well so I too, am just waiting for Corruption tuning).

But in the end if you can't help people learn to LIKE actually being involved in PvP, I feel it'd be hard to sustain a game with such a freeform take on it.

You can't make people who don't enjoy eating fish eyes enjoy eating fish eyes.

Yeah, and you don't really want to. But you might be able to convince people who've had terribly cooked fish eyes try a well cooked version. And when you do, the ones that hate them will still hate them, and that's fine. But all the ones that only hate bad fish eyes will appreciate the second chance. Even if they didn't realize that a bad cook was their problem. As someone who thought they hated a lot of different (literal) foods, I really appreciate having been served those better versions.

Different people have different tastes, and that's fine. The important thing is to make sure people don't accidentally get tricked into ignoring things they like due to an unlucky bad first impression with a different chef. Whether that's other games, or other literal food.

Dygz

The vast majority will have experienced non-consensual PvP enough times to know they don't like it.
Has nothing to do with the bad design.

The devs are presenting their PvP design. People who play Ashes will have to try it. But, it will really be a matter of whether Corruption is successful in deterring non-consensual to a degree that is acceptable for players who hate non-consensual PvP.
There's a difference between tolerating rare encounters and enjoying it.

I expect to enjoy the objective-based PvP content, like Sieges and Caravans.
But, it's not possible to make direct PvP combat encounters interesting in any way for me to want to hunt down someone who ganked me.

Merek

SirChancelot wrote: »

Deathbreath wrote: »

I have no desire to ask for changes in a system I haven't seen in action yet.

That being said, I have zero faith in the open world pvp feeling good or balanced or even interesting. People don't want fair fights, they want to steamroll for easy loot.

I'm just hoping everything else about the game is good enough to make up for it. And if it isn't? Oh well. Just add it to the list of other games I don't play. Ain't the world of the world.

Hopefully the corruption system makes people pump the breaks on that steamroll for easy loot.
I'd like to see more corruption applied for the more one sided the fight was, not sure how that would be gauged though.

As someone who enjoys being a vulture in games, the way PVP works in this game completely disinterests me. I'd only kill people to make them hemorrhage resources if I don't like them or their organization, outside of that, resources are honestly not enough of an incentive for me to dance with the corruption system.

Shilee

Dygz wrote: »

The vast majority will have experienced non-consensual PvP enough times to know they don't like it.
Has nothing to do with the bad design.

The devs are presenting their PvP design. People who play Ashes will have to try it. But, it will really be a matter of whether Corruption is successful in deterring non-consensual to a degree that is acceptable for players who hate non-consensual PvP.
There's a difference between tolerating rare encounters and enjoying it.

I expect to enjoy the objective-based PvP content, like Sieges and Caravans.
But, it's not possible to make direct PvP combat encounters interesting in any way for me to want to hunt down someone who ganked me.

Do you mind letting me know how caravans seem fun to you but open world pvp won't? Cause in my mind then only thing that happens is you have MORE to lose during a caravan attack, it's still nonconsensual, and the attackers won't gain corruption. It is literally just open world pvp with lower risk and higher reward

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

You can't make people who don't enjoy eating fish eyes enjoy eating fish eyes.

Sure you can.

In my days working with food, I turned a LOT of people on to foods they thought they didn't enjoy at all. Brussel sprouts and mushrooms being the most common, but I convinced people to try chickens feet, and indeed fish eyes.

It just so happens that fish eyes are a delicacy in Sri Lanka, among other places, and are actually incredibly good if prepared well. People that do not like them (or say they do not like them) generally fall in to three categories - they have never tried them at all, or don't like either the look, or the texture (not liking the texture applies to about 90% of food that people dislike).

Fish eyes happen to have an overly strong umami flavor, prepare them in a way to minimize the things they don't like about them, but maximize the things others do like about them, and you will have people absolutely loving your fish eyes.

I do find it a little odd that you happened to stumble on to a thing that I have literally done as your example of a thing that you can't do.

Dygz

Caravans are objective-based PvP -and- I actively choose to participate in that or not:

Steven 😇: The caravan has a proximity zone around it that prompts players with an interface asking if they wish to, attack, defend or ignore the caravan. There is no flagging involved. It is a temporary faction based battleground. Factions being the caravans defenders and attackers

I can choose to ignore the participation prompt. So... that is consensual PvP, if I choose to participate.

Mag7spy

Merek wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Deathbreath wrote: »

I have no desire to ask for changes in a system I haven't seen in action yet.

That being said, I have zero faith in the open world pvp feeling good or balanced or even interesting. People don't want fair fights, they want to steamroll for easy loot.

I'm just hoping everything else about the game is good enough to make up for it. And if it isn't? Oh well. Just add it to the list of other games I don't play. Ain't the world of the world.

Hopefully the corruption system makes people pump the breaks on that steamroll for easy loot.
I'd like to see more corruption applied for the more one sided the fight was, not sure how that would be gauged though.

As someone who enjoys being a vulture in games, the way PVP works in this game completely disinterests me. I'd only kill people to make them hemorrhage resources if I don't like them or their organization, outside of that, resources are honestly not enough of an incentive for me to dance with the corruption system.

That is how it was designed, its not meant to gank tons of people it has to be a conscious decision. I'd like to have a buffer so i can attack whoever I want, but will just have to dec a guild and settle it like that.

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