Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

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mfckingjoker

NiKr wrote: »

Most definitely. And I think this is why pvp games don't live too long. Cause there's only a limited amount of people with that kind of "skill". And exactly why all the current L2 players still play on older versions of the game, because their "skill" is maxxed out and they can endlessly pvp against others, winning and losing yet always persevering.

And I personally dunno what kind of game design could help players hone that skill w/o just having pvp in it and saying "go git good". I hope Intrepid can figure that out and make the most successful pvp mmorpg out there, but only the time will tell.

Most of l2 players who still play the game usually play older versions just because the more recent an update is the more shit or carebear/pve/autofarm/p2w friendly it is.
pvp focused games just don't appeal to the masses but there are still many people who can keep on playing them w/o the need to change the game. Update yes but not change its focus entirely.

Tragnar

the essence of the pvp mmo experience that players are after is to have a unique character that you "own" and that you can kill other players with - and that requires somewhat balanced state of gear+build that the game gets to

a game with pvp should be looked at from 2 gear points
- entry gear at max lvl that is strong and relatively fast to obtain
- bis gear at max lvl that is just the best you can get
and how big is the power difference between those two

nobody likes to engage in fights where you literally have no chance to win

ashesplayer123

I think the best way to "protect casuals" (gearing wise) is to NOT implement RNG based endgame gearing systems.
If you cannot afford to grind 40 hours a week for your BiS, it feels much better to get crafting materials/currency and to be able to craft/buy the gear you want/need (or let someone else craft it for you in exchange for the mats and some gold/silver whatever currency the game has).

I've been there, and knowing FOR A FACT that there is a light at the end of the tunnel (and I can even predict to some degree how long will it take to get there) is such a good feeling.

The last couple years I've been more on the hardcore side of the way I play, but I still clearly remember the old days, when I was farming battlegrounds in WoW, and I could predict how long will it take to get my next PvP set piece. It gave the grind a sense of purpose, and I was genuinely looking forward to it.

ClintHardwood

Norkore wrote: »

I think the best way to "protect casuals" (gearing wise) is to NOT implement RNG based endgame gearing systems.
If you cannot afford to grind 40 hours a week for your BiS, it feels much better to get crafting materials/currency and to be able to craft/buy the gear you want/need (or let someone else craft it for you in exchange for the mats and some gold/silver whatever currency the game has).

I've been there, and knowing FOR A FACT that there is a light at the end of the tunnel (and I can even predict to some degree how long will it take to get there) is such a good feeling.

The last couple years I've been more on the hardcore side of the way I play, but I still clearly remember the old days, when I was farming battlegrounds in WoW, and I could predict how long will it take to get my next PvP set piece. It gave the grind a sense of purpose, and I was genuinely looking forward to it.

I disagree with this somewhat. While I don't like RNG based gearing systems, I do believe in marginal end-game gains as an item sink. Having that higher peak to aim for gives veterans something to shoot for and noobs something to one day aspire to. They also keep the economies of gatherers and processors afloat.

ashesplayer123

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Norkore wrote: »

I think the best way to "protect casuals" (gearing wise) is to NOT implement RNG based endgame gearing systems.
If you cannot afford to grind 40 hours a week for your BiS, it feels much better to get crafting materials/currency and to be able to craft/buy the gear you want/need (or let someone else craft it for you in exchange for the mats and some gold/silver whatever currency the game has).

I've been there, and knowing FOR A FACT that there is a light at the end of the tunnel (and I can even predict to some degree how long will it take to get there) is such a good feeling.

The last couple years I've been more on the hardcore side of the way I play, but I still clearly remember the old days, when I was farming battlegrounds in WoW, and I could predict how long will it take to get my next PvP set piece. It gave the grind a sense of purpose, and I was genuinely looking forward to it.

I disagree with this somewhat. While I don't like RNG based gearing systems, I do believe in marginal end-game gains as an item sink. Having that higher peak to aim for gives veterans something to shoot for and noobs something to one day aspire to. They also keep the economies of gatherers and processors afloat.

You can still aim for higher peak without having RNG significantly effecting your gearing process. I'm not against random end game gear drops, I just don't think it's beneficial to make BiS gear RNG dependent (let's say for multiple BiS gear pieces you have to farm the same 3 dungeons and raids over and over and over again until you get lucky, when instead you could do multiple different types of content, salvage gear, collect currency and buy/craft what you actually want).

Mag7spy

Norkore wrote: »

I think the best way to "protect casuals" (gearing wise) is to NOT implement RNG based endgame gearing systems.
If you cannot afford to grind 40 hours a week for your BiS, it feels much better to get crafting materials/currency and to be able to craft/buy the gear you want/need (or let someone else craft it for you in exchange for the mats and some gold/silver whatever currency the game has).

I've been there, and knowing FOR A FACT that there is a light at the end of the tunnel (and I can even predict to some degree how long will it take to get there) is such a good feeling.

The last couple years I've been more on the hardcore side of the way I play, but I still clearly remember the old days, when I was farming battlegrounds in WoW, and I could predict how long will it take to get my next PvP set piece. It gave the grind a sense of purpose, and I was genuinely looking forward to it.

There are really only 4 options as far as I see

1. Enhancing
2. Long term grind / time investment
3. Mobile style time gates
4. No enhancing rng and only item drops

Best option imo is doing a fair version of enhancing (on page 10 in enhancing I wrote up a method to do it i believe is the most fair for all types of players)

Option 2 can work though either people get end gave very fast and people complain they beat the game within a month from the point they hit max level. Or it takes so long that it becomes impossible for casual players to ever reach since there is no cap and its simply who has the most time. (proper enhancement system can counter this in a way that it sets back hardcore players, while still giving casual players a boost. Though they won't get the best boost it keeps power more in check. The reason why it keeps it in check as they can be starting from 20-40% rather then having to start at 0 and do a very long grind.)

Option 3 can work as well but honestly i hate this kind of system that limits how much you cna play and the content you can do with your friends. It becoems you log on do you stuff and log off (completely casual mind set). Honestly I think option 3 would break the game by turning it fully casual when it shouldn't be a casual game imo (just because its not a casual game does not mean it isn't fun for a casual to play)

Option 4 Pretty much like 100% enhancement but have everything be extremely rare, it be highly unlikely any casuals will get these drops though.

Tragnar

IMO the best gear should be a reward for the most mechanically and logistically challenging content - ignoring pvp (meaning that pvp could be possible, but the content was designed without pvp happening -> thus unkillable if any pvp happens)

and that content in itself will be in limited supply, because there will be world buildup for opening it with only 1 instance (most likely always in the open world with the current philosophy) of the encounters

NishUK

@Tragnar mechanically and logistically?? Can people stop pretending that an mmorpg is a difficult genre WITHOUT PvP/Human Competition, it's disgusting.

Tragnar

did you even read that? when did I write that the challenging content must be on some external level comparable to games focusing on difficulty?

all I wrote is that the most challenging that will EXIST in ashes should be the most rewarding - the ceiling of that difficulty can be easy compared to games focusing on difficulty, but relatively it would be the most difficult content that can be found inside the game

and I very much doubt that you want encounters that reward best loot to be loot boxes with a health bars

please don't get your panties in a bunch over a wrong assumption that I want ashes to have encounters way harder than what is the industry standard

and btw mechanically means to able to press your buttons in a way that makes your class work best and being able to dodge flying at you - and logistically to be able to organize a raid and make sure they are prepared for it - like duh

NishUK

The "very best" gear and super challenging encounters (which don't need to exist, leave it to 14/WoW) is a LOW priority to what makes an OW mmorpg functions. How MOST gear behaves and what does that mean for PvP and PvE Team encounters is a far better priority, especially when keeping in essence with this thread.

"like duh"

organizing a raid, pressing buttons to play great, what an original idea that isn't currently on the market at all...

The Raid obsession exists, why are you changing an open world world game with this recycled crap when AoC's game direction is inspired from the likes of Lineage 2 and Archeage.

Tragnar

then i'd suggest you would do more research what the game is going to be around

a direct quote from Steven that's on wiki on the "Raids" page

There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content...

please don't insult your own intelligence by focusing on something I never wrote and that what exists only in your head. I never wrote that hard encounters should be a priority now or in the future - I just know that they will exist in some form and I made a comment on the quality of rewards players should get from those

@NishUK
I would heavily advise you to take a deep breath and after reading a post to not create an assumption of the beliefs of the author and criticizing your own assumptions about the author

NishUK

Tragnar wrote: »

then i'd suggest you would do more research what the game is going to be around

a direct quote from Steven that's on wiki on the "Raids" page

There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content...

key word 'some', not a focus. I'm extremely disappointed that Steven mentioned it but there we go...

I didn't create an assumption, I made a real version of you in my head based off of what you said and that's enough, ignoring PvP and challenging PvE. You barely added context to it because you're clearly obsessed with the "industry standard" of what an mmorpg which is hilarious because the mmorpg genre is one of the worst competitively.

Noaani

NishUK wrote: »

Can people stop pretending that an mmorpg is a difficult genre WITHOUT PvP/Human Competition, it's disgusting.

Just because you have never played a game with good enough content to prove this statement blatantly false, doesn't mean the rest of us have not.

Case in point, in early EQ2, the games website used to list the mobs with the most player kills, along with how many kills they had.

There were some individual mobs in the game that were getting hundreds of thousands of kills a week.

It took all players in Archeage several months to reach what one mob in EQ2 got in a week.

Good PvP is great. However, it isn't a even shit stain on good PvE. Good PvE takes more time, more dedication, more focus, more knowledge, more adaptation, and more resilience than PvP ever could.

You just don't know this, because you are too scared of it - you know you'll fail.

Noaani

NishUK wrote: »

organizing a raid, pressing buttons to play great, what an original idea that isn't currently on the market at all...

This is rich coming from someone that just wants Ashes to be Lineage.

What an original idea that isn't currently on the market at all.

What you seem to have continually failed to grasp (despite my best efforts to educate you) is that Ashes is attempting to fall between games like Archeage, L2 et al, and games like EQ2, WoW and all it's friends.

As such, the PvE side of the game is EVERY BIT as important as the PvP side.

Not understanding that is to not understand what Ashes is.

If Ashes PvE is not comparable to WoW or FFXIV, the game will fail. It doesn't have to be quite as good, just in the same ballpark (ie, comparable).

The same can be said of the games PvP. If it is not as good as Archeage (the only game of the last decade I consider to have had somewhat good PvP), then the game will also fail.

You want the game to succeed. I want the game to succeed. As such, we should both want Ashes to have the best PvP and PvE that is possible for it to have.

How do you not understand this by now?

Edit to add; for context, L2 PvE was simply there to service the PvP game. It was not PvE as any other game would call it. If you think it was, all that is doing is reinforcing my point from the above post about how you simply do not know good PvE.

Deliasz

VmanGman wrote: »

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

I'm super casual and I think your cry to the gods is broken and insulting to common sense.
You just want to be protected from people who can afford more time to play this game.

Just play the game (when released) and find your own happy spot.

I want to be the same hardcore Joe but I don't want to put an effort.

Good Luck with that

mfckingjoker

This Noaani guy must be the most casual player ever

Mons

You can't expect to get the same reward or power for putting in a fraction of the effort or time

It might benefit you or people who play less by reducing the power level disparity, but it diminishes the rewards given to people who play the game more, making their time and effort that they invested less rewarding.

Playing the game more and putting in more effort or time into getting better gear SHOULD make you more powerful than someone who doesn't, otherwise what is the point of gear in the first place?

Yes, it shouldn't be TOO much of a difference, but it shouldn't be made redundant. It should be noticeable, it should be rewarding, and it should absolutely make people who put in that time and effort feel rewarded not like they got some gimmick of a new item or power increase. A good middle ground is best

VmanGman

Deliasz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

I'm super casual and I think your cry to the gods is broken and insulting to common sense.
You just want to be protected from people who can afford more time to play this game.

Just play the game (when released) and find your own happy spot.

I want to be the same hardcore Joe but I don't want to put an effort.

Good Luck with that

Mons wrote: »

You can't expect to get the same reward or power for putting in a fraction of the effort or time

It might benefit you or people who play less by reducing the power level disparity, but it diminishes the rewards given to people who play the game more, making their time and effort that they invested less rewarding.

Playing the game more and putting in more effort or time into getting better gear SHOULD make you more powerful than someone who doesn't, otherwise what is the point of gear in the first place?

Yes, it shouldn't be TOO much of a difference, but it shouldn't be made redundant. It should be noticeable, it should be rewarding, and it should absolutely make people who put in that time and effort feel rewarded not like they got some gimmick of a new item or power increase. A good middle ground is best

@Mons @Deliasz I never said that I want casuals to be on equal footing with hardcore players. Please read the post before you comment. I just said that hardcore players shouldn't be able to automatically win against a casual player by stat checking them. Hardcore players will already most likely have the advantage of being better at the game. They don't need to also stat check the opponent into a defeat. In a game like AoC where everything can be contested through PvP it is very important to not make casuals feel like they have no chance simply because the other guy has bigger numbers.

George_Black

Ye. Play tekken.

VmanGman

George_Black wrote: »

Ye. Play tekken.

You ok?

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