Dygz wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you. I dunno. Being afraid to fight in an MMO sounds kinda strange to me. Lots of times I don't want to fight. Lots of times I don't want to deal with the consequences of dying, but... That's not really what I would call fear. Fear is when I'm so immersed in the game, trying to stay alive, that I'm physically ducking and bobbing my body in real life as if it's going to help me maneuver y avatar in the game. That never happens in PvP. Generally only happens in game when I'm running from something like a Dragon that cons skull.
Mag7spy wrote: » So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you.
Azherae wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Can't really look at players the same way I look at mobs because mobs don't have true feelings. I don't care too much if I grief a mob. I don't care if a mob is not in the mood to fight. You too? Sure, fine... This isn't the point either, but if that's the perspective you're capable of, so be it, I'll hope for better from the Dev team.
Dygz wrote: » Can't really look at players the same way I look at mobs because mobs don't have true feelings. I don't care too much if I grief a mob. I don't care if a mob is not in the mood to fight.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you. To have a mmo like what you want where people are more keen on fighting each other imo would be more similar to some battle royale games where you don't have fear of losing anything. When i played shadowbane Id hunt players or be hunted it was fun but was also a lot to deal with to lose your farm. Bdo is closest to that mind set but that is because also how it is designed. Even on a more hardcore pvp servers that isn't something that is going to happen, i think what you are thinking of is a bit of an exaggeration and definitely not a PvX type game. There would never be honor or fair fights, power and numbers and a lot of running to not lose your year. On top of large guilds camping people so they can never leave. PvX is the best way with limits it makes the experiences more memorable then just having everyone trying to murder each other 24/7 I wish you were capable of having conversations without projecting so much/making assumptions about what other people want or how. I don't feel like trying to explain this to you though, maybe you're right and I don't want a PvX game and therefore won't like Ashes. That's a better simpler conclusion. When you say you want other players looking like mobs that means to fight them, to get loot, etc. Any player that sees a mob would attack, that isn't projecting that is normal in any kind of mmo. Im simply saying what would happen in a game like that. I also have experience with tons of old mmorpg and i know how full loot PvP is without limits. I gave an example of the closest one which was Bdo and people in that game aren't that quick to attack everything in it. My only main assumption is you either want more hardcore pvp servers or pve players so they can make the PvX server more hardcore. I ask and try to figure it out based on the information you give me, long story short there is no mmorpg out there that people play that are like that, or they were not successful enough to come to the light. Again if you want a mmo where you look at players like mobs you are looking at more of s shooter type game its different in a PvX type game... If I'm getting the wrong understanding just explain it to me better, that was the example you gave me.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you. To have a mmo like what you want where people are more keen on fighting each other imo would be more similar to some battle royale games where you don't have fear of losing anything. When i played shadowbane Id hunt players or be hunted it was fun but was also a lot to deal with to lose your farm. Bdo is closest to that mind set but that is because also how it is designed. Even on a more hardcore pvp servers that isn't something that is going to happen, i think what you are thinking of is a bit of an exaggeration and definitely not a PvX type game. There would never be honor or fair fights, power and numbers and a lot of running to not lose your year. On top of large guilds camping people so they can never leave. PvX is the best way with limits it makes the experiences more memorable then just having everyone trying to murder each other 24/7 I wish you were capable of having conversations without projecting so much/making assumptions about what other people want or how. I don't feel like trying to explain this to you though, maybe you're right and I don't want a PvX game and therefore won't like Ashes. That's a better simpler conclusion.
Mag7spy wrote: » So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you. To have a mmo like what you want where people are more keen on fighting each other imo would be more similar to some battle royale games where you don't have fear of losing anything. When i played shadowbane Id hunt players or be hunted it was fun but was also a lot to deal with to lose your farm. Bdo is closest to that mind set but that is because also how it is designed. Even on a more hardcore pvp servers that isn't something that is going to happen, i think what you are thinking of is a bit of an exaggeration and definitely not a PvX type game. There would never be honor or fair fights, power and numbers and a lot of running to not lose your year. On top of large guilds camping people so they can never leave. PvX is the best way with limits it makes the experiences more memorable then just having everyone trying to murder each other 24/7
Azherae wrote: » Yes, there is probably no such MMO. I just don't know why that is. Why it is so important that owPvP rely on 'being so different from MOBAs and games where people can gain something, however small, from losses', that the response is 'no you don't want an MMO go play a MOBA'. As I said, maybe I do. I will have a new MOBA to play soon enough. Perhaps I'll be happier there.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Yes, there is probably no such MMO. I just don't know why that is. Why it is so important that owPvP rely on 'being so different from MOBAs and games where people can gain something, however small, from losses', that the response is 'no you don't want an MMO go play a MOBA'. As I said, maybe I do. I will have a new MOBA to play soon enough. Perhaps I'll be happier there. I don't think you answered this part of the comment back then, but what would you think about my suggested moba-like system from this comment?https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/340228#Comment_340228
Mag7spy wrote: » We can go if they killed a green or the person fought back, yes they won't gain anything if they lose and as it should be the person attacking would gain more in a sense. But that is the point of the Corruption system, if they are corrupted then they are at risk of losing what they had gained. Any player would see them and be like If i kill that person free of risk for myself I might get some good loot off them. Or the person that was killed by them might come with their friends to kill that person. It causes there to be a push and pull, that yes he won the fight but you aren't a winner till you are back in town and have placed the items in your storage. One thing i hope is spawn points and towns are decent locations away where you can store such items else I feel issues might come up if its two feet away. Back to the Pve player, the corrupt system is designed so its not a frequent event that happens every second the moment you step out of town. The game is a PvX game at the end of the day so it should be balanced between PvP and Pve. Also ive played dota for 20 years and I've never felt i gained something from losing, only that a hour of time my was spent losing lmao. In a battle royale i don't feel the lose as much because you are like i loss but i killed a bunch of people atleast. Your view point on it isn't losing its how close can you get tot hat number one spot.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » We can go if they killed a green or the person fought back, yes they won't gain anything if they lose and as it should be the person attacking would gain more in a sense. But that is the point of the Corruption system, if they are corrupted then they are at risk of losing what they had gained. Any player would see them and be like If i kill that person free of risk for myself I might get some good loot off them. Or the person that was killed by them might come with their friends to kill that person. It causes there to be a push and pull, that yes he won the fight but you aren't a winner till you are back in town and have placed the items in your storage. One thing i hope is spawn points and towns are decent locations away where you can store such items else I feel issues might come up if its two feet away. Back to the Pve player, the corrupt system is designed so its not a frequent event that happens every second the moment you step out of town. The game is a PvX game at the end of the day so it should be balanced between PvP and Pve. Also ive played dota for 20 years and I've never felt i gained something from losing, only that a hour of time my was spent losing lmao. In a battle royale i don't feel the lose as much because you are like i loss but i killed a bunch of people atleast. Your view point on it isn't losing its how close can you get tot hat number one spot. Ok, I'll count that as a tangent. We're just different types of people. I play games where I usually learn something from losing. I'm not going into matches thinking about how many people I kill, I'm thinking about 'did I get better at this game, can I see where I don't make X error anymore'. That's just what I look for in games, if Ashes isn't going to provide that, so be it.
Mag7spy wrote: » I think a battleground mode being moba inspired would be a great idea for games to do. Pretty sure ashes plans to have battlegrounds, the mode new world had was pretty cool to jump into for some pvp.
NiKr wrote: » A few months back (or maybe weeks? what is time?) I suggested an addition to the BH system where the PK's victim's resources would have a higher chance of dropping and would be marked with the owner's name, and the BH system itself would reward the bounty hunters for returning those resources back to the owner. I feel like this could alleviate the "loser never gets anything" problem. I also bundled up that suggestion with another addition to the system, but that one will only become relevant after we see what Intrepid has designed on their own first.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you. To have a mmo like what you want where people are more keen on fighting each other imo would be more similar to some battle royale games where you don't have fear of losing anything. When i played shadowbane Id hunt players or be hunted it was fun but was also a lot to deal with to lose your farm. Bdo is closest to that mind set but that is because also how it is designed. Even on a more hardcore pvp servers that isn't something that is going to happen, i think what you are thinking of is a bit of an exaggeration and definitely not a PvX type game. There would never be honor or fair fights, power and numbers and a lot of running to not lose your year. On top of large guilds camping people so they can never leave. PvX is the best way with limits it makes the experiences more memorable then just having everyone trying to murder each other 24/7 I wish you were capable of having conversations without projecting so much/making assumptions about what other people want or how. I don't feel like trying to explain this to you though, maybe you're right and I don't want a PvX game and therefore won't like Ashes. That's a better simpler conclusion. When you say you want other players looking like mobs that means to fight them, to get loot, etc. Any player that sees a mob would attack, that isn't projecting that is normal in any kind of mmo. Im simply saying what would happen in a game like that. I also have experience with tons of old mmorpg and i know how full loot PvP is without limits. I gave an example of the closest one which was Bdo and people in that game aren't that quick to attack everything in it. My only main assumption is you either want more hardcore pvp servers or pve players so they can make the PvX server more hardcore. I ask and try to figure it out based on the information you give me, long story short there is no mmorpg out there that people play that are like that, or they were not successful enough to come to the light. Again if you want a mmo where you look at players like mobs you are looking at more of s shooter type game its different in a PvX type game... If I'm getting the wrong understanding just explain it to me better, that was the example you gave me. Ok I'm giving this one try, I'm not even gonna require you to 'not project', but I'm gonna stop if you go off on any weird TANGENTS. Here's the problem with owPvP in almost every game and imo why it fails. The attacker has mitigated their main risks before they begin. Can we agree on this? In 90% of situations, if the attacker was carrying a lot of good materials of their own, they don't want to attack a random. So what do they do? They attack people they know they can beat. They attack with advantage. They attack with low risk. That's a skill, it's a valid skill and maybe that's what owPvP games are all about. I just also think that's why those games are niche or fail. The player who has something to lose doesn't usually want to initiate the fight. Whether that's mats, the time it took to get wherever they are and don't want to respawn. The attacker is therefore 'a person with low risk, whose gain is the fight itself even if they lose', the defender is 'a person with high risk, something to lose, often less skill, and with little to gain if they win'. I don't want to see this again. The main thing where this doesn't matter is Objective based PvP and farming spots, but even in the case of the farming spot, it's usually the same. Because the one who wants the spot and actually thinks to ATTACK for it, is probably still taking the lesser risk. It can be satisfying to be the defender and defeat that type of person, but 'PvE' players normally don't want to do this. They expect to lose without benefit. This whole 'there will be winners and losers' thing is not, in my mind, an excuse for the loser gaining NOTHING. But because MMOs are no-matchmaking, usually poorly balanced games, the loser DOES usually gain NOTHING, not even 'an increase in personal skill or knowledge'. Yes, there is probably no such MMO. I just don't know why that is. Why it is so important that owPvP rely on 'being so different from MOBAs and games where people can gain something, however small, from losses', that the response is 'no you don't want an MMO go play a MOBA'. As I said, maybe I do. I will have a new MOBA to play soon enough. Perhaps I'll be happier there.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » We can go if they killed a green or the person fought back, yes they won't gain anything if they lose and as it should be the person attacking would gain more in a sense. But that is the point of the Corruption system, if they are corrupted then they are at risk of losing what they had gained. Any player would see them and be like If i kill that person free of risk for myself I might get some good loot off them. Or the person that was killed by them might come with their friends to kill that person. It causes there to be a push and pull, that yes he won the fight but you aren't a winner till you are back in town and have placed the items in your storage. One thing i hope is spawn points and towns are decent locations away where you can store such items else I feel issues might come up if its two feet away. Back to the Pve player, the corrupt system is designed so its not a frequent event that happens every second the moment you step out of town. The game is a PvX game at the end of the day so it should be balanced between PvP and Pve. Also ive played dota for 20 years and I've never felt i gained something from losing, only that a hour of time my was spent losing lmao. In a battle royale i don't feel the lose as much because you are like i loss but i killed a bunch of people atleast. Your view point on it isn't losing its how close can you get tot hat number one spot. Ok, I'll count that as a tangent. We're just different types of people. I play games where I usually learn something from losing. I'm not going into matches thinking about how many people I kill, I'm thinking about 'did I get better at this game, can I see where I don't make X error anymore'. That's just what I look for in games, if Ashes isn't going to provide that, so be it. If you are a hardcore pvper and they have enough action combat in the game you will get that. But that isn't the average player mind set. For you though im sure it be fine and great and you can learn to be a better pvper losing or winning. Part of the reason i advocate for action combat, skill should be able to influence mmos in this age we don't have the same limitations as 20 years ago.
Dolyem wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you. To have a mmo like what you want where people are more keen on fighting each other imo would be more similar to some battle royale games where you don't have fear of losing anything. When i played shadowbane Id hunt players or be hunted it was fun but was also a lot to deal with to lose your farm. Bdo is closest to that mind set but that is because also how it is designed. Even on a more hardcore pvp servers that isn't something that is going to happen, i think what you are thinking of is a bit of an exaggeration and definitely not a PvX type game. There would never be honor or fair fights, power and numbers and a lot of running to not lose your year. On top of large guilds camping people so they can never leave. PvX is the best way with limits it makes the experiences more memorable then just having everyone trying to murder each other 24/7 I wish you were capable of having conversations without projecting so much/making assumptions about what other people want or how. I don't feel like trying to explain this to you though, maybe you're right and I don't want a PvX game and therefore won't like Ashes. That's a better simpler conclusion. When you say you want other players looking like mobs that means to fight them, to get loot, etc. Any player that sees a mob would attack, that isn't projecting that is normal in any kind of mmo. Im simply saying what would happen in a game like that. I also have experience with tons of old mmorpg and i know how full loot PvP is without limits. I gave an example of the closest one which was Bdo and people in that game aren't that quick to attack everything in it. My only main assumption is you either want more hardcore pvp servers or pve players so they can make the PvX server more hardcore. I ask and try to figure it out based on the information you give me, long story short there is no mmorpg out there that people play that are like that, or they were not successful enough to come to the light. Again if you want a mmo where you look at players like mobs you are looking at more of s shooter type game its different in a PvX type game... If I'm getting the wrong understanding just explain it to me better, that was the example you gave me. Ok I'm giving this one try, I'm not even gonna require you to 'not project', but I'm gonna stop if you go off on any weird TANGENTS. Here's the problem with owPvP in almost every game and imo why it fails. The attacker has mitigated their main risks before they begin. Can we agree on this? In 90% of situations, if the attacker was carrying a lot of good materials of their own, they don't want to attack a random. So what do they do? They attack people they know they can beat. They attack with advantage. They attack with low risk. That's a skill, it's a valid skill and maybe that's what owPvP games are all about. I just also think that's why those games are niche or fail. The player who has something to lose doesn't usually want to initiate the fight. Whether that's mats, the time it took to get wherever they are and don't want to respawn. The attacker is therefore 'a person with low risk, whose gain is the fight itself even if they lose', the defender is 'a person with high risk, something to lose, often less skill, and with little to gain if they win'. I don't want to see this again. The main thing where this doesn't matter is Objective based PvP and farming spots, but even in the case of the farming spot, it's usually the same. Because the one who wants the spot and actually thinks to ATTACK for it, is probably still taking the lesser risk. It can be satisfying to be the defender and defeat that type of person, but 'PvE' players normally don't want to do this. They expect to lose without benefit. This whole 'there will be winners and losers' thing is not, in my mind, an excuse for the loser gaining NOTHING. But because MMOs are no-matchmaking, usually poorly balanced games, the loser DOES usually gain NOTHING, not even 'an increase in personal skill or knowledge'. Yes, there is probably no such MMO. I just don't know why that is. Why it is so important that owPvP rely on 'being so different from MOBAs and games where people can gain something, however small, from losses', that the response is 'no you don't want an MMO go play a MOBA'. As I said, maybe I do. I will have a new MOBA to play soon enough. Perhaps I'll be happier there. I promise I am not jabbing at you but what I gathered from this is basically that you don't want players to have to lose to other players. I feel most PvE players naively go into PVP MMOs thinking they can avoid the conflict but act shocked and disappointed when they can't. Maybe if they go into a PVP or PVX game fully expecting conflict and being mentally prepared for it as an inevitability and requirement to play, they would be less upset about it when they get killed or "lose"? Or even excited when they fight back and win?
Mag7spy wrote: » In shadowbane it was full loot, so when you die you dropped everything except for equipped gear. So you could end up losing a hour or hours of farm as you are so far away from town at grinding spots and such. People had a very rare rune (i did as well) that allowed you to track anyone on the map to. So people might scout out your group and then come gank you to try to take all your farm and any rare items you have on you.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So you want a mmo where people attack first and ask questions later and are never afraid to fight? Even in older mmos that wasn't the case looking at another player was a red flag, either you are fighting, if you are lucky they are leaving or they might try to backstab you. To have a mmo like what you want where people are more keen on fighting each other imo would be more similar to some battle royale games where you don't have fear of losing anything. When i played shadowbane Id hunt players or be hunted it was fun but was also a lot to deal with to lose your farm. Bdo is closest to that mind set but that is because also how it is designed. Even on a more hardcore pvp servers that isn't something that is going to happen, i think what you are thinking of is a bit of an exaggeration and definitely not a PvX type game. There would never be honor or fair fights, power and numbers and a lot of running to not lose your year. On top of large guilds camping people so they can never leave. PvX is the best way with limits it makes the experiences more memorable then just having everyone trying to murder each other 24/7 I wish you were capable of having conversations without projecting so much/making assumptions about what other people want or how. I don't feel like trying to explain this to you though, maybe you're right and I don't want a PvX game and therefore won't like Ashes. That's a better simpler conclusion. When you say you want other players looking like mobs that means to fight them, to get loot, etc. Any player that sees a mob would attack, that isn't projecting that is normal in any kind of mmo. Im simply saying what would happen in a game like that. I also have experience with tons of old mmorpg and i know how full loot PvP is without limits. I gave an example of the closest one which was Bdo and people in that game aren't that quick to attack everything in it. My only main assumption is you either want more hardcore pvp servers or pve players so they can make the PvX server more hardcore. I ask and try to figure it out based on the information you give me, long story short there is no mmorpg out there that people play that are like that, or they were not successful enough to come to the light. Again if you want a mmo where you look at players like mobs you are looking at more of s shooter type game its different in a PvX type game... If I'm getting the wrong understanding just explain it to me better, that was the example you gave me. Here's the problem with owPvP in almost every game and imo why it fails. The attacker has mitigated their main risks before they begin. Can we agree on this? In 90% of situations, if the attacker was carrying a lot of good materials of their own, they don't want to attack a random. So what do they do? They attack people they know they can beat. They attack with advantage. They attack with low risk. That's a skill, it's a valid skill and maybe that's what owPvP games are all about. I just also think that's why those games are niche or fail. The player who has something to lose doesn't usually want to initiate the fight. Whether that's mats, the time it took to get wherever they are and don't want to respawn. The attacker is therefore 'a person with low risk, whose gain is the fight itself even if they lose', the defender is 'a person with high risk, something to lose, often less skill, and with little to gain if they win'. I don't want to see this again. The main thing where this doesn't matter is Objective based PvP and farming spots, but even in the case of the farming spot, it's usually the same. Because the one who wants the spot and actually thinks to ATTACK for it, is probably still taking the lesser risk. It can be satisfying to be the defender and defeat that type of person, but 'PvE' players normally don't want to do this. They expect to lose without benefit.
Azherae wrote: » Here's the problem with owPvP in almost every game and imo why it fails. The attacker has mitigated their main risks before they begin. Can we agree on this? In 90% of situations, if the attacker was carrying a lot of good materials of their own, they don't want to attack a random. So what do they do? They attack people they know they can beat. They attack with advantage. They attack with low risk. That's a skill, it's a valid skill and maybe that's what owPvP games are all about. I just also think that's why those games are niche or fail.
No. The reason that owPvP fails in MMORPGs is because it's trying to mix playstyles that don't mix well together. In the original version of RPGs, PvP was exceedingly rare. There's a whole slew of activities and experiences that drew people to RPGs that had absolutely nothing to do with attacking other players. RPGs were primarily cooperative endeavors against NPC adversaries. Gamers - especially gamers fond of competition and combat - were attracted to the open world possibilities of copeting against the ultimate opponents - each other.
