Balancing guilds with solo play

I have seen a lot about the exciting guild incentives and mechanics planned for AOC which I am all for. My only concern is that this may require an environment whereby you HAVE to align yourself with a guild to be relevant in the game. Personally as a solo player I'm of the opinion that joining a guild should always be out of choice, not necessity. In which ways do you think solo play can be balanced so that solo players/small teams of friends can still choose this path?

One idea I propose is that solo players could carry out as questline to become a mercenary. Mercenaries would be neutral alignment but could be hired by guilds to assist in seiges and bosses etc. This way solo players are not gated away from content but likewise are still able to enjoy soloplay when they choose to.

Just as guilds can acquire reputation, so could mercenaries. At higher reputation levels your price as a mercanary would automatically increase. Reputation would be based on successful "missions"(hires) and feedback from guild seniors (e.g. a simple rating system).

Just as there will be a leaderboard for guilds, there could be s leaderboard for mercenaries. Perhaps this system would be tied to military nodes.

What are your thoughts?

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Craiken

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

And once these small temp guilds arise, you'll have a whole fleet of random, not at cap solo guilds with the buffs you may want as a solo player

That works mechanically, but it feels awkward. I'd prefer guild benefits to be guild-oriented. For example, it would make sense if incoming heals from fellow guild members were more effective. That would symbolize the benefits of familiarity. There are lots of design options.

Simply improving the stats of people who belong to guilds is lame. It also invites gaming of the system by forming several small guilds for maximum stat benefits and organizing their activities using third party apps.

PenguinPaladin

Craiken wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

And once these small temp guilds arise, you'll have a whole fleet of random, not at cap solo guilds with the buffs you may want as a solo player

That works mechanically, but it feels awkward. I'd prefer guild benefits to be guild-oriented. For example, it would make sense if incoming heals from fellow guild members were more effective. That would symbolize the benefits of familiarity. There are lots of design options.

Unfortunately thats what making a game is... its designing mechanics, and those mechanics are always at the will of the players to be abused.

However.

Crafting guilds getting buffs towards crafting, will be selective on who they let in because they want to keep their profit to themselves.

Combat focused guilds are only as profitable as the valubles they are after or protecting.

Gathering guilds, will need protection.

When we talk about how something feels, for you to say heals comming from a guild member makes since.... what if that healer joined the guild 5 minutes ago? Why does he get the bonus healing.......?

We are discussing mechanics. Now should they feel appropriate, yes. Should guildpoints have a place to go to accomplish feeling like you have a since of community among your guild, yes. But this feeling cones from everywhere....

Buffs for protecting caravans, gives you a sense that your team is damn good at what they do.

Buffs for crafting helps you feel like your crafts are something special. And your community helps you make a final product.

And buffs for gathering makes you feel like you're valued on the front line, even if you arent the best fighter out there, because your the one who can get what we need.

Buffs that only help if you're doing only guild affiliated team stuff might feel like, wooo, we're doing so well because we're a team. But it seperates you into groups who wont play together unless forced, because my team only works best together

Also i imagine joining and leaving a guild shouldnt be a simple process... to avoid people hoping between guilds for buffs just whenever

PenguinPaladin

Craiken wrote: »

Simply improving the stats of people who belong to guilds is lame. It also invites gaming of the system by forming several small guilds for maximum stat benefits and organizing their activities using third party apps.

And focusing on this, yes. That is the system. Instead of having huge guilds have several small ones. But that in itself is balancing. Several small guilds have to worry about friendly fire, where large guilds cant hit one another. And so on... there is a trade off of being easily cohesive, and being more powerful. That is the whole concept of the guild system, and its choices of specialization or amount of members

As well as guild politics...... people arent robots. If the gathering guild that fuels your crafting guild get unhappy with you, it causes problems. If your combat guild hasnt won for a while and cant afford to buy the gear being made by your crafting guild.... issues. Loyalty changes. And forcing smaller guilds allows for that game to be played.

But its still player choice with this guild system, and thats the major thing. Instead of forcing guilds to be 20-50 members and making them specialize. They are saying, go ahead. Have your thousand man guild. Its fine, even if its not the best way to do things

I also want to mention that this is good for the "meta"

The fastest way to grow out of the gate is going to be more and more members. So people who decide to sacrifice ease of transition of power, are going to be going for world record achievements, and making member count over specialization guilds. And this will help the games launch as after a certain amount of time these massive guilds who already fought over "world firsts" will want to break up, into smaller more specialized guilds. Allowing the more casual players who have already been leveling a specialized guild have a "head start" against the breaking up guilds all going into level one subguilds

PenguinPaladin

Otr wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

tautau wrote: »

I think about five players are needed to form a guild, no solo guilds will exist.

It is possible that larger numbers of players will be needed to level up a guild each time.

The definition here isnt solo guild, as a single player. Its a guild made up of players who play on their own.

I see a potential future where these solo guild people would be the majority and all will ally and share resources peacefully

I will personally start a war if this happens on my server.... just to stir things up.

Dygz

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

I dont see why 15 "solo" players couldnt meet up. Talk about how they want to do their own thing, but also need some of the guild passive buffs. And then come together, make a mutual guild thats only there to level the guild up enough for their wanted buffs, and then go their own way. And once these small temp guilds arise, you'll have a whole fleet of random, not at cap solo guilds with the buffs you may want as a solo player, so just try and make some loose friends and join one that fits your play style....

The OP is not about guild buffs though - as far as I can tell.
The conerns of the OP is about how to determine you even want to group with 14 strangers when you don't know how proficient they are in combat. You all are mercenaries from different places far across the globe.
You like to group temproarily but do not like stick near the same Node and do not like to be pressured to meet guild obligations.

How do you convince strangers that you are worthy to join their group? That's the OP concern.
Ashes has features for that - the OP just didn't know about them.
Again, don't let the term solo trigger you into misunderstanding the actual concern.

Dygz

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

I will personally start a war if this happens on my server.... just to stir things up.

Sounds like you will be spending time on "PvE Servers".
It will be interesting to see how effective your one-person war can be.

ggFable

In 2022 it's hard for guilds to recruit 300 difficult players, so it's become normal practice to recruit packs of solo players who are given minimal tasks, or even left for the masses, and I see no problem for these solo players who whine here about not wanting to join a guild, just join some of these guilds just for the masses, and enjoy all the guild buffs, which by the way are not easy to get, and you(crying solo players) get them for nothing.

How annoying are these threads on the forums, and especially the people who create them. Finally there was a project where the guild is not just a sham just to have one more chat as in WoW, and immediately got out these people who are starting to whine that's why I'm not in the same conditions as the players who play in the guild...

PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

I dont see why 15 "solo" players couldnt meet up. Talk about how they want to do their own thing, but also need some of the guild passive buffs. And then come together, make a mutual guild thats only there to level the guild up enough for their wanted buffs, and then go their own way. And once these small temp guilds arise, you'll have a whole fleet of random, not at cap solo guilds with the buffs you may want as a solo player, so just try and make some loose friends and join one that fits your play style....

The OP is not about guild buffs though - as far as I can tell.
The conerns of the OP is about how to determine you even want to group with 14 strangers when you don't know how proficient they are in combat. You all are mercenaries from different places far across the globe.

How do you do anything without knowing anything? Unfortunately you will have to learn... the op is talking about working as a mercenary. Being hired by clients to do a job. How does he know who to let hire him? How does the helpless babe do anything?

You interact with people, imagine that.... maybe one of the group you worked with as a solo player you.... liked... and were loose friends with..... and so you talked with then and made a guild...

The main problem the OP has stated, not in the original post, is that guild expect you to do tasks for them in return. And im saying that a loose guild of friends would not have that problem to begin with, and you could act on your own in one of those..... ive had a guild like this on every mmo ive played. Ive never joined a "large, or overly competitive guild" for the same reasons of the OP. But now it just seems like the term guild. It being a guild. Makes it bad.

Mag7spy

Why would they make guilds less important? Guilds have 2 factors whatever the buff they are given. Second a group of players that can mesh or have a goal together and play with one another.

If you want to make a group that you have no attachment to join a guild with that same idea, or just use world chat or whatever they have in game that helps you find a group every time you need one which is most cases is more work but not that hard.

Mag7spy

Otr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why would they make guilds less important?

To offer fun also to people who want to play solo. An MMO has to try to accommodate many people with different play styles.

How is a solo player not having fun?

PenguinPaladin

Otr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why would they make guilds less important?

To offer fun also to people who want to play solo. An MMO has to try to accommodate many people with different play styles.

How is a solo player not having fun?

When he cannot level up, get gear, get resources, defend caravan, complete story, defeat bosses in dungeons... without being in a guild.
Some people want to have a loose interaction with others for whatever reasons. Maybe they do not want to give anything in exchange of receiving help. Or they do not want to chat or have agreements to meet online for some events. Maybe they are introverts.

No content is locked out if you are not in a guild............. so there is nothing to debait on that topic. Now will it be more difficult to find people to play with, probably. Will it be more difficult to accomplish specific goals solo? Probably. Are you forced into not being able to try and do that? No. So if its hard, im sorry, but you are the one forcing these rules on yourself.

Mag7spy

Otr wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Are you forced into not being able to try and do that? No. So if its hard, im sorry, but you are the one forcing these rules on yourself.

If Jeff wants Derp into his game...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The more people like the game, the better it is for Jeff. But yes, I prefer guilds over solo. If the game is balanced for solo players, guild members will have less reason to cooperate.

In what way exactly do you mean balanced (solo) in a way guild members have less reason to cooperate?

PenguinPaladin

Otr wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Are you forced into not being able to try and do that? No. So if its hard, im sorry, but you are the one forcing these rules on yourself.

If Jeff wants Derp into his game...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dont think its so much if they want them playing. Ashes has a good chance at being a great game. If the game is good, people will play it. Solo's will still play it even if it takes them longer to accomplish things. Because the game is worth playing. I think speeding things up, so "casuals" or "solos" can progress at a pace of a guild so they dont have to try so hard its a fallacy. And i say this as a more casual, more small group focused player.

The game doesnt need to be easy for me. It needs to have great achievments to be taken. And if i manage to do that on my own its that much more impressive.

PenguinPaladin

Otr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Are you forced into not being able to try and do that? No. So if its hard, im sorry, but you are the one forcing these rules on yourself.

If Jeff wants Derp into his game...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The more people like the game, the better it is for Jeff. But yes, I prefer guilds over solo. If the game is balanced for solo players, guild members will have less reason to cooperate.

In what way exactly do you mean balanced (solo) in a way guild members have less reason to cooperate?

I quoted above from wiki:

There will not be a generalized group finder in Ashes of Creation, instead Bulletin boards are used to encourage localized grouping.[2]

A group finder would reduce need to rely on guild members. The game would be very different from social interaction point of view.

Solo players do not want to read guild chat or becoming familiar with people. But probably they can team up every day with different players.

Maybe Derp can explain better. But players like to frown upon their reasons.
I think solo vs guild as concept is as important as PvE vs PvP.
By adding those buletin boards instead of group finders, Jeff seems to care for both kind of players but favors guilds.

I dont believe guilds are being favored. They simply have the upper hand naturally, as they should. As a group of people should always have the upper hand against a single person.

I think leveling the playing field between a guild vs a single player would be counteractive in the whole of things. Because its natural for them to have the upper hand.

Mag7spy

I'm unsure how the bulletin board would work as I haven't seen the design for it if its added. I feel like it be akin to recruitment chat where people can make a post and you read it and try to get into a group that is doing something.

Honestly if that is what people like to do that is fair though I feel there might be a chance you actually do mroe talking to get into a group on the board or a lot more waiting. It also depends partly on the game but also very strongly on players on what they want to do. If the game is as social as i expect it will lean more towards forming guilds and doing content with each other that way.

My reason for that is unlike games like lost ark, WoW, final fantasy, etc there isn't just a dungeon instances. Things should feel more organic rather then queing you are kind of exploring the world and doing a bunch of things together. So it might be dungeons then some quest, exploring and then another dungeon. Though its imo that it would go like that, and its nto saying a board can't have the same kind of effect. I feel that the board in that aspect is like a guild but less friendly since they are more strangers. Compared to having a more friendly feel to guildies and the ease of jumping on and being included in what guild members are doing.

In that aspect I don't see my guilds would rely on the board unless they were being excluded from guild content do to player number limits (I dont feel that will be the case in this game). For smaller guilds if they didn't have the numbers maybe they would rely on the board, or they would just ask in world chat. Also the reason why I push for guilds cause smaller guilds should have a reason to grow and have the members to dot he content they want to do.

*should also keep in mind they will have a different lead designer so things can change

PenguinPaladin

My understanding of the bulletin board system is just that taverns will have boards that groups lacking members can sign up on, or solo's lacking groups can sign up on, to get in touch with one another.

Dygz

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

How do you do anything without knowing anything? Unfortunately you will have to learn... the op is talking about working as a mercenary. Being hired by clients to do a job. How does he know who to let hire him? How does the helpless babe do anything?

He's not worried about who to let hire him. He wants to make it easier for groups to be willing to hire him.
And he's concerned that guilds will have better word-of-mouth rep than solo mercenaries.

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

You interact with people, imagine that.... maybe one of the group you worked with as a solo player you.... liked... and were loose friends with..... and so you talked with then and made a guild...

In his scenario, he's far across the world, where no one has heard of him before and he's wanting to join groups where no has worked with him before. People with whom he has not met.
He's expecting to have loose friends closer to his home Node.
In Ashes, players will be able to check the record of his wins and losses for Battlegrounds PvP.
In addition, to talking with each other.

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

The main problem the OP has stated, not in the original post, is that guild expect you to do tasks for them in return. And im saying that a loose guild of friends would not have that problem to begin with, and you could act on your own in one of those..... ive had a guild like this on every mmo ive played. Ive never joined a "large, or overly competitive guild" for the same reasons of the OP. But now it just seems like the term guild. It being a guild. Makes it bad.

Um. That is the reason not to join a guild.
Which is fine. It's also possible to find casual guilds. Yes.
I think that was covered on page 1.
But, Ashes also does track Battlegrounds PvP wins and losses. So, what the OP asked for is pretty much already a feature in the game.

So...I'm not sure what your point is...

PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

How do you do anything without knowing anything? Unfortunately you will have to learn... the op is talking about working as a mercenary. Being hired by clients to do a job. How does he know who to let hire him? How does the helpless babe do anything?

He's not worried about who to let hire him. He wants to make it easier for groups to be willing to hire him.
And he's concerned that guilds will have better word-of-mouth rep than solo mercenaries.

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

You interact with people, imagine that.... maybe one of the group you worked with as a solo player you.... liked... and were loose friends with..... and so you talked with then and made a guild...

In his scenario, he's far across the world, where no one has heard of him before and he's wanting to join groups where no has worked with him before. People with whom he has not met.
He's expecting to have loose friends closer to his home Node.
In Ashes, players will be able to check the record of his wins and losses for Battlegrounds PvP.
In addition, to talking with each other.

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

The main problem the OP has stated, not in the original post, is that guild expect you to do tasks for them in return. And im saying that a loose guild of friends would not have that problem to begin with, and you could act on your own in one of those..... ive had a guild like this on every mmo ive played. Ive never joined a "large, or overly competitive guild" for the same reasons of the OP. But now it just seems like the term guild. It being a guild. Makes it bad.

Um. That is the reason not to join a guild.
Which is fine. It's also possible to find casual guilds. Yes.
I think that was covered on page 1.
But, Ashes also does track Battlegrounds PvP wins and losses. So, what the OP asked for is pretty much already a feature in the game.

So...I'm not sure what your point is...

Im not going to go further with this as i cant figure out what you are trying to point out either.

You seem to have more insite on what the OP was wanting than i do.

derp wrote: »

I have seen a lot about the exciting guild incentives and mechanics planned for AOC which I am all for. My only concern is that this may require an environment whereby you HAVE to align yourself with a guild to be relevant in the game. Personally as a solo player I'm of the opinion that joining a guild should always be out of choice, not necessity.

This part of the OP is my main focus. And my whole argument is just because being in a guild is preferable always, doesnt mean you can not solo. But by solo'ing you are deciding to take the more difficult path. Solo'ing being small group or alone.

Dygz

Yep, but he basically just asked for a feature that Ashes already has to help with character reputation.
Yes, a casual guild would not require obligations - and they are probably easy to find.
And, no, it's not necessary to join a guild.
That was all covered on page 1.

TheDarkSorcerer

Karthos wrote: »

"I don't want to be social in a game that at it's central core requires the players to interact with others and be social".

I've never understood what people with this mentality even see when they look at an MMO, what makes them want to play a game that basically all but REQUIRES you to get involved with other people, group up, be social, rely on other players, ect. There's other games that will cater to this style of game play much better, we don't need to water down games to accommodate these confused people.

Maybe you just don't want to play MMORPGs.... This is like going to a Mexican Restaurant and saying "I don't like Mexican food, please make me a hamburger".

I hear Bethesda is releasing Elder Scrolls 6 soon-ish, and I'm sure you can probably play Skyrim on your Apple Watch here soon.

I don't agree with this at all.

I have the option to workout at my empty gym in my luxury highrise i live in, that has everything a gym-rat needs. But i rather choose to workout being around people at a public gym. Not that i talk to anyone there, as i mind my business. But i like being around people. I do the same in ESO PvP, i play solo and don't really play with anyone or talk to anyone, but i like playing in an environment around real people.

You can still enjoy MMO's while being an introvert. Not everyone is a social butterfly or enjoy daily guild drama or politics. So i'm all for smaller casual guilds.

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