I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

You saying action combat can't handle 40 people is not true, what matters is how its designed.

Have you not been paying attention?

I said action combat can't handle the variety needed.

I have given examples of a few encounters with action combat and many people (in one case, I took it on with 250 or so people). The thing is, these encounters are all essentially the same - because action combat doesn't allow for that much varity - the more people you add, the fewer design options you have in combat.

Look at BDO, it has exactly three encounters of note (that is being generous). The game is 8 years old.

All three of those encounters essentially play the same. There are differences between them, but they are subtle differences rather than material differences.

Then you look at a game like EQ2. In that same 8 year period after launch (where BDO had 3 encounters of note) EQ2 had about 400. Each of those 400 or so encounters in EQ2 were more different from any other of those 400 encounters than any of the 3 encounters in BDO were different from the other two.

Again, this is where action combat fails.

You can always just throw a big stick in the ground and have people jumping over it, dodging around it, all that stuff. However, you can not get the variety in an action combat game that you can get in a tab target game - and variety of encounter IS what makes a tab target game.

Perhaps another way to out it for you. An action combat game is about the combat system - a tab target game is about the content.

As an aside, since you are ALWAYS using the same combat system in an action combat game, they tend to get boring fast. Since you are taking on many different encounters in the same day in a tab target game, they do not get boring as fast.

The only way to keep an action combat game even remotely interesting is to make it a PvP game - the game as a whole simply won't stand up without it - where as tab target games without PvP absolutely can and do stand up.

Shilee

Dygz wrote: »

Shilee wrote: »

Action combat is how others and I see the direction of the genre evolving. Not only does action combat feel more engaging because of it's difficulty to learn, it makes the gameplay feel far more dynamic. In WoW pvp the only thing I need to worry about is my rotation, some positioning, and managing my cds according to my opponents. In action combat, you need to do all of those things to a higher degree. Worrying about my rotation now includes that I'm actually aiming and hitting my abilities on target instead of hitting a button and knowing it will hit. Utilizing my positioning relative to my opponents so that I can optimize hitting my abilities on them while also avoiding theirs. Using my environment to my advantage, if I'm playing a ranged class such as a ranger or a mage, how can I use the difference in elevation to make it so my opponent can't hit me; should I mantle that ledge and attack from above? All of this enhances combat and adds depth to an otherwise stale genre.

Ashes has Hybrid combat. People who don't like Action Combat should be able to create Tab Target builds they like, so...
No need to be bickering about which playstyle is better.

Shilee wrote: »

The game will allow players to be up to 75% action combat or tab target, but you cannot be 100% of either. After trying the game, if you still don't enjoy action combat for 25% of the time, there will always be games that cater to your wants and needs, this one just won't be it.

I already addressed the tab target build capabilities that someone is able to create. From the looks of the dev update, it looks like they strongly believe they are going to be able to create the hybrid combat that they envisioned otherwise they wouldn't have shown action combat basic attacks and abilities.

Leiloni

Dygz wrote: »

Hmmmn. I guess, I could call standard reticle aiming free aim.
Soft lock in NWO is sticky aim.
Sixth Sense is a different kind of aim assist, but seems great for an RPG.
Target Lock would also be good, of course.

I mean - I think I would expect to be using bow shots as an opener and then switching to a different weapon.
I have a feeling Assassin's Creed is not a high magic setting.

I keep seeing people mention NWO. What game is that? Neverwinter Online?

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You saying action combat can't handle 40 people is not true, what matters is how its designed.

Have you not been paying attention?

I said action combat can't handle the variety needed.

I have given examples of a few encounters with action combat and many people (in one case, I took it on with 250 or so people). The thing is, these encounters are all essentially the same - because action combat doesn't allow for that much varity - the more people you add, the fewer design options you have in combat.

Look at BDO, it has exactly three encounters of note (that is being generous). The game is 8 years old.

All three of those encounters essentially play the same. There are differences between them, but they are subtle differences rather than material differences.

Then you look at a game like EQ2. In that same 8 year period after launch (where BDO had 3 encounters of note) EQ2 had about 400. Each of those 400 or so encounters in EQ2 were more different from any other of those 400 encounters than any of the 3 encounters in BDO were different from the other two.

Again, this is where action combat fails.

You can always just throw a big stick in the ground and have people jumping over it, dodging around it, all that stuff. However, you can not get the variety in an action combat game that you can get in a tab target game - and variety of encounter IS what makes a tab target game.

Perhaps another way to out it for you. An action combat game is about the combat system - a tab target game is about the content.

As an aside, since you are ALWAYS using the same combat system in an action combat game, they tend to get boring fast. Since you are taking on many different encounters in the same day in a tab target game, they do not get boring as fast.

The only way to keep an action combat game even remotely interesting is to make it a PvP game - the game as a whole simply won't stand up without it - where as tab target games without PvP absolutely can and do stand up.

There is nothing action can't do compared to tab that is false you can design things to be however you want in a game. BDO devs are lazy and just want money so that is a bad example. Lost ark would be a much better example of content between all their different content when it comes to raids and such.

I don't see you give any examples that don't work for action combat....I see you talking about reposition which I already gave a answer to. Action combat can do every single thing tab can do and better from a mech stand point included. You couldn't give me a scenarios where I couldn't make it work for action combat, in fact i challenge you to do so.

Whatever you give, ill give a detailed response to every part of it why action combat can work in the same way, and also improve on it with action combat flare.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You saying action combat can't handle 40 people is not true, what matters is how its designed.

Have you not been paying attention?

I said action combat can't handle the variety needed.

I have given examples of a few encounters with action combat and many people (in one case, I took it on with 250 or so people). The thing is, these encounters are all essentially the same - because action combat doesn't allow for that much varity - the more people you add, the fewer design options you have in combat.

Look at BDO, it has exactly three encounters of note (that is being generous). The game is 8 years old.

All three of those encounters essentially play the same. There are differences between them, but they are subtle differences rather than material differences.

Then you look at a game like EQ2. In that same 8 year period after launch (where BDO had 3 encounters of note) EQ2 had about 400. Each of those 400 or so encounters in EQ2 were more different from any other of those 400 encounters than any of the 3 encounters in BDO were different from the other two.

Again, this is where action combat fails.

You can always just throw a big stick in the ground and have people jumping over it, dodging around it, all that stuff. However, you can not get the variety in an action combat game that you can get in a tab target game - and variety of encounter IS what makes a tab target game.

Perhaps another way to out it for you. An action combat game is about the combat system - a tab target game is about the content.

As an aside, since you are ALWAYS using the same combat system in an action combat game, they tend to get boring fast. Since you are taking on many different encounters in the same day in a tab target game, they do not get boring as fast.

The only way to keep an action combat game even remotely interesting is to make it a PvP game - the game as a whole simply won't stand up without it - where as tab target games without PvP absolutely can and do stand up.

There is nothing in a tab target game that can't be implemented in an action combat one.

Just because game developers took their games in different directions and developed different content for their games doesn't mean developers who develop games with similarities doesn't have to follow their path.

Tab combat is mechanically more repetitive than action combat since it's always the same thing, you press a target, press a button, and a skill goes to the target. Action combat has more variety in ability delivery mechanics such as hit scan, projectiles, proximity aoe, and those can be further modified with things like projectile speed and size.

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

Azherae

mcstackerson wrote: »

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

Both these games have a 'tab target' option similar to how it works in Legend of Zelda games. People may not always use it, but it is not quite fair to say they 'use aiming' without clarifying more detail on what that 'aiming' is.

https://www.polygon.com/monster-hunter-rise-guide/22388040/lock-on-target-monster-camera-style

mcstackerson

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

Both these games have a 'tab target' option similar to how it works in Legend of Zelda games. People may not always use it, but it is not quite fair to say they 'use aiming' without clarifying more detail on what that 'aiming' is.

https://www.polygon.com/monster-hunter-rise-guide/22388040/lock-on-target-monster-camera-style

That is not tab. Yes, they have assist aiming and camera direction but the retain their core action elements. If tab was the key, they wouldn't need those.

Azherae

mcstackerson wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

Both these games have a 'tab target' option similar to how it works in Legend of Zelda games. People may not always use it, but it is not quite fair to say they 'use aiming' without clarifying more detail on what that 'aiming' is.

https://www.polygon.com/monster-hunter-rise-guide/22388040/lock-on-target-monster-camera-style

That is not tab. Yes, they have assist aiming but the retain their core action elements. If tab was the key, they wouldn't need those.

I can only say that if you perceive that using a Ranged Weapon in Monster Hunter games with lock-on to not be the equivalent of Tab Target in the context of this conversation, then whether or not you are correct about it has nothing to do with the conversation happening.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Thing is you can have all of those features and be able to dodge abilities together. In fact BDO actually has that to an extent with some abilities. Stat changing abilities are not limited to tab target. PvP view point can be different but when you are fighting a mob that you know what it does its easy to predict when you need to do things.

At which point then would you have too many things to physically do in the game? From what I remember of BDO, it's a combo system where you gotta press keys in a proper order or in a proper combination at the same time. And iirc a lot of abilities take directionality into account, so you're using up your movement presses to use a skill (correct me if I'm wrong here).

So how exactly would you have a deeper variety of skills, on top of dodgy fast movement, w/o overwhelming the player with a piano-like gameplay. Hell, I played a piano build in L2 and even that was right at the edge of what I'd consider a breaking point of "too much shit to do". I can't even imagine having 20 abilities on top of constant fast-paced movement and proper targeting.

Dralay

Selo wrote: »

Mortal Online
Guild Wars 2 (big part action combat, not dead but only a fraction of players at start)
TERA
New World
Lost Ark
Skyforge
Black Desert Online
Elder Scrolls Online (not dead but not big either)
Archeage
Wildstar

Wether its action combat or not only, the fact that people go back to traditional tab target games are true.
Pretty much all games that survives for more than 6 months with a larger playerbase are tab target.

I dont think neither you or me hang out with the "average" player.
Most are casual players with family that dont hang on discord or forums.
Those players are generally more traditional and dont like changes.

This is a really dumb take, BDO and Lost ark, for example, have generally some of the best combat out there do you think the combat is the reason those games may lose player base? NO, it's because games like those have become major p2w shitholes the only thing that actually kept them alive this long is the fact that they have good combat. But take a game like WOW it's also been dying really hard for the last several years "biggest mmo in history" and why it has the glorious Tabbed combat. The point is it's not action or tab that causes a game to not have longevity it's content and systems that change over time.

Ludullu

mcstackerson wrote: »

That is not tab. Yes, they have assist aiming and camera direction but the retain their core action elements. If tab was the key, they wouldn't need those.

Now I'm nowhere near proper Souls nerds and have never played MH, but even from the 50h of Elden Ring that I played - that shit is so fucking tab target that I don't even know what to say. You can literally target an enemy and strafe around it. If that's not tab, I don't know what is. Yes, you can hit air when you want to, but that's probably the actioniest part of that combat, which isn't saying much.

mcstackerson

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

Both these games have a 'tab target' option similar to how it works in Legend of Zelda games. People may not always use it, but it is not quite fair to say they 'use aiming' without clarifying more detail on what that 'aiming' is.

https://www.polygon.com/monster-hunter-rise-guide/22388040/lock-on-target-monster-camera-style

That is not tab. Yes, they have assist aiming but the retain their core action elements. If tab was the key, they wouldn't need those.

I can only say that if you perceive that using a Ranged Weapon in Monster Hunter games with lock-on to not be the equivalent of Tab Target in the context of this conversation, then whether or not you are correct about it has nothing to do with the conversation happening.

I think i'm saying that the game is still action combat. They don't abandon any of the other action elements. If tab was truely what people enjoyed then why waste time on those other elements? Lastly, a major use of that feature is to help with camera control, not necessarily aiming which is not a component of tab mechanics.

My conversation was directed at Noanni's comment so not sure how you can say it's not relevant.

Azherae

mcstackerson wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

Both these games have a 'tab target' option similar to how it works in Legend of Zelda games. People may not always use it, but it is not quite fair to say they 'use aiming' without clarifying more detail on what that 'aiming' is.

https://www.polygon.com/monster-hunter-rise-guide/22388040/lock-on-target-monster-camera-style

That is not tab. Yes, they have assist aiming but the retain their core action elements. If tab was the key, they wouldn't need those.

I can only say that if you perceive that using a Ranged Weapon in Monster Hunter games with lock-on to not be the equivalent of Tab Target in the context of this conversation, then whether or not you are correct about it has nothing to do with the conversation happening.

I think i'm saying that the game is still action combat. They don't abandon any of the other action elements. If tab was truely what people enjoyed then why waste time on those other elements?

My conversation was directed at Noanni's comment so not sure how you can say it's not relevant.

I will leave it to Noaani to clarify whether or not your comment is relevant given the clarification. I saw you ask 'why don't popular games use Tab Target', and clarified that they have something that I perceived to be equivalent to what Noaani has tried to explain is 'Tab Target'.

But it is true that all gauging of relevance is up to the target of your point so I apologize for speaking on behalf of Noaani in this case and will disengage.

mcstackerson

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

Both these games have a 'tab target' option similar to how it works in Legend of Zelda games. People may not always use it, but it is not quite fair to say they 'use aiming' without clarifying more detail on what that 'aiming' is.

https://www.polygon.com/monster-hunter-rise-guide/22388040/lock-on-target-monster-camera-style

That is not tab. Yes, they have assist aiming but the retain their core action elements. If tab was the key, they wouldn't need those.

I can only say that if you perceive that using a Ranged Weapon in Monster Hunter games with lock-on to not be the equivalent of Tab Target in the context of this conversation, then whether or not you are correct about it has nothing to do with the conversation happening.

I think i'm saying that the game is still action combat. They don't abandon any of the other action elements. If tab was truely what people enjoyed then why waste time on those other elements?

My conversation was directed at Noanni's comment so not sure how you can say it's not relevant.

I will leave it to Noaani to clarify whether or not your comment is relevant given the clarification. I saw you ask 'why don't popular games use Tab Target', and clarified that they have something that I perceived to be equivalent to what Noaani has tried to explain is 'Tab Target'.

But it is true that all gauging of relevance is up to the target of your point so I apologize for speaking on behalf of Noaani in this case and will disengage.

Ok, i'll direct this at you. How does that make those games a tab game?

It doesn't, you could maybe claim hybrid but you still are lacking the guaranteed hit of a tab system. Do tab players really consider that tab targetting?

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Thing is you can have all of those features and be able to dodge abilities together. In fact BDO actually has that to an extent with some abilities. Stat changing abilities are not limited to tab target. PvP view point can be different but when you are fighting a mob that you know what it does its easy to predict when you need to do things.

At which point then would you have too many things to physically do in the game? From what I remember of BDO, it's a combo system where you gotta press keys in a proper order or in a proper combination at the same time. And iirc a lot of abilities take directionality into account, so you're using up your movement presses to use a skill (correct me if I'm wrong here).

So how exactly would you have a deeper variety of skills, on top of dodgy fast movement, w/o overwhelming the player with a piano-like gameplay. Hell, I played a piano build in L2 and even that was right at the edge of what I'd consider a breaking point of "too much shit to do". I can't even imagine having 20 abilities on top of constant fast-paced movement and proper targeting.

Yup directions input can effect skills in bdo but you can break it down in remove direction influence and having things set as keys to replace that. Bdo also didn't use 0-9 very much besides a few skills so that would also be available to use. BDO is very fast and action oriented to an extreme as skills have very small cooldowns.

This is why I say action doesn't have a roof you can make it as high or as low as you want as it gives more tools on what to do and think about. Slowing the pace of the combat down, having some abilities are more buffs, higher cooldowns would allow things to be at a reasonable pace. Be it being able to dodge into using your buff skill to evade actions when another is hitting you. Teleport iframe is already akin to action combat and something some tab target games would have, mages using the skill to transfer dmg to mana, and anything else akin to things done with stats and ability procs can be done in action and have that layer of movement based on how much the devs want to have int heir game.

It all comes down to balancing and the experience you want players to do and the learning curve you want is implement well. So not making things unreadable, balancing the speed of the combat so its something most people can play and enjoy, and having that flare of action that people can rely on to dodge some moves with skills, and having some element of aim being a factor at times.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

The need to aim is not what makes a game action or tab.

If that were the case, every tab game would be at least action in part, because every action game I have played has had abilities that need to be aimed.

While we may use tab target as a term to refer to tab target combat, it is because that is an easy descriptor for it - not because that is the defining feature of it.

The aiming paradigm is NOT the defining factor between action and tab target games.

Cat Quiver

Doublebass wrote: »

From the demo i saw posted recently i'm afraid it looks like diablo - nothing different from just clicking an enemy to attack them, then using an ability that does a certain aoe in front. Nothing different from if this was a tab target game. Stats on stats. Chop them up. Slice and dice until enemy crumbles.

Have you ever played a video game before? Whatever the rest of your post is asking for you' need to either A. take a time machine to pre 1800's or B. go larp in the park.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.

The need to aim is not what makes a game action or tab.

If that were the case, every tab game would be at least action in part, because every action game I have played has had abilities that need to be aimed.

While we may use tab target as a term to refer to tab target combat, it is because that is an easy descriptor for it - not because that is the defining feature of it.

The aiming paradigm is NOT the defining factor between action and tab target games.

My issue is when we talk about tab vs action, we are talking about ability delivery system, nothing else.

This is my frustration with this conversation as you don't seem to care about delivery, you care about the other mechanics of the abilities and how they interact. As far as ability depth goes, i think what we want is similar and when i argue "against tab" i'm not trying to argue against those aspect of abilities.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

There is nothing action can't do compared to tab that is false you can design things to be however you want in a game.

Sure there is. You just need to think about it for even a fraction of a second.

Two points that I want to clear up before I get right in to it. The first is that action combat systems ask more of players than tab target combat systems. I assume you agree with this.

The second point is that developers can create content in either tab or action combat that simply has too much going on for players to be able to cope with. While you may not have seen an example of this, I am sure you can see how it could be true. We should also state that regardless of the combat system, what a player can handle in total is assumed to be the same over both combat systems.

So, with that said, it should already be obvious to you how tab target outright allows for more variety than action, but I will continue.

Lets imagine you are a developer, and you are designing an encounter. You want the encounter to be right on the cusp of what players can handle, when taken in contest with the combat system of the game.

Now, since we know that action combat asks more of players, we can say that it is taking up 75% of what players can handle. This leaves you with 25% of what a player can handle to include in your encounter.

However, if you were in a tab target game, where the combat system is only asking 25% of what a player can handle, that gives you 75% of what a player can handle to use up on your encounter. This gives you literally every option that an action combat game has, plus many, many more.

Now, you can argue the numbers if you like, they are arbitrary. What is key here is the premise outlined above.

If you assume developers can create content that has too much going on for players to be able to handle, and you agree that action combat as a system asks more of players than tab target combat, then you logically have to agree that this leaves more room for encounter design in a tab target game.

There is literally no other logical conclusion to make here - but feel free to try.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

It all comes down to balancing and the experience you want players to do and the learning curve you want is implement well. So not making things unreadable, balancing the speed of the combat so its something most people can play and enjoy, and having that flare of action that people can rely on to dodge some moves with skills, and having some element of aim being a factor at times.

But I feel like that's Noaani's point. Tab games can have much deeper skill design w/o sacrificing on the speed/difficulty of the encounter, while in order for an action game to be playable with a big amount of skills you gotta slow it down in multiple ways, which kinda defeats the whole purpose of "action games are more skill-based because they require you to react to shit faster".

It's just 2 different skillsets. You either use your knowledge of the game's systems and mechanics to properly adapt to the situation or you use your physical ability to react super fast and press correct buttons even faster. The former can appeal to all ages and has a really low skill floor, while the latter appeals mainly to the younger audience (due to their physical abilities being at their peak) and has a much higher floor. And you can always speed up tab if you want to, but I'm not sure how many action combat likers would be ok with a slow ass combat in their game.

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