Action Combat for meele classes, tab targeting for ranged classes

What do you guys prefer, cross aiming or tab targeting for ranged dps classes?
Furthermore would you like to see different approaches with different classes?
EG:
- Ranged agility based classes (like hunters) -> Action Combat (Cross aim) with basic attacks
- Ranged intelligence based classes (like mages) --> Tab Targeting with basic attacks + skill shot abilities

Since with mage classes the core gameplay is to land your abilities (where the most dmg comes from), i think tab targeting for your basic attacks should be fine. The skill with intelligence based classes shouldnt be measured by what player has the best aim in the game.
It should be measured by the tactical use of your set of abilities and by landing those. IMO

But there should be room for players, who come from fps games, as well. They should be able to show their skill and beeing rewarded in fights too e.g. by having a good aim. I dont know the exact numbers but with my knowlege from other games like New World I can imagine that those fps oriented players like are choosing classes with bows, gunpowder weappons, etc.

So why dont we do cross aiming your basic attacks for those agility based classes and tab targeting your basic attacks for intelligence based classes?

Since we are talking about two different approaches of dmg output you would have the advantage of adjusting the dmg output of the classes individually when balancing the classes overall. From my point of view this would be a better solution for the balacing overall rather than giving people the choice of swapping between action and tabtargeting with any ranged dps class.

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Mag7spy

This is what i want xD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78IJdhvY1zg

JamesSunderland

Mag7spy wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Find me a video where you are doing this in tab target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAkTaiR-IeM

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can see the huge difference needed in tab target, that ninja in iframe fighting other iframes barely having frames to hit each other or cc and constantly attacking.

It makes tab target look like slow motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6THOFLlEA

Not a big fan of iframes fiesta at all, probably one of the things i dispised the most in BDO combat.

The Rift tab target combat example you gave was pretty terrible could possible call it nitty pick?

Even though Archeage was mostly Tab-Target the combat was very fast paced, had many skills that wouldn't trigger GCD, had animation cancelling possibilities and had high mobility options not only through skils but also through mounts and gliders usage in combat. Barely had any iframes bs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh1OhUk0H1A

It is important to remember Archeage(along side Lineage 2) is one of the biggest influences to Steven for Ashes.

It doesn't matter if you aren't a fan of iframes this clip doesn't even come close skill wise. When you need to aim all of your moves its a different story, if your skill are tab you simply are clicking the button and it hits the player, you don't need to worry about player location and again your own aim and tracking.

It doesn't matter if you are a fan of iframes, it doesn't make the combat more skillful, it just makes it WAY more ping reliant, BDO has Aim Assist and some pretty big AoEs, Archeage tab skills still requires you to be looking in the enemies direction to be used, had quite a few action skills mixed in and mobility can disrupt both.

Vaknar

This has been such a fun and interesting thread to read through! I love all of the construction discussions happening here.

Don't forget to drop your feedback in the official feedback thread here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52724/feedback-request-basic-melee-weapon-attack-update-discussed-in-june-livestream/p1

In case you missed it, we provided a little more clarification here (although it seems most people are on the same page with how hybrid combat works, in this thread ^_^): https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52785/combat-clarifications-have-feedback-and-thoughts-on-combat-click-here-first#latest

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Darkfall is (was) about as precise as you can get and played a lot like a shooter, especially the first one. ESO also allows you to shoot targets that are far away.

Darkfall definitely seems close to what I imagine when I think about difficult action combat. Though it looked fairly slow in the video, so I guess you could still get more hardcore. ESO didn't feel as precise though.

I mean, this is a trade off game developers have to make.

Want the games combat to be fast paced? Cool, fewer abilities, less need for accuracy (BDO).
Want the game to have more abilities to chose from? Cool, slower combat and less need for accuracy (Tera).
Want the game to require high levels of accuracy? Cool, slower combat and few abilities (Darkfall).

You cant have all of them in one game.

To me, ESO attempted to be in about the middle. It wasn't all that fast, but wasnt slow, it needed some accuracy, but not a lot and it had a selection of abilities you could use, but not that many.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Darkfall is (was) about as precise as you can get and played a lot like a shooter, especially the first one. ESO also allows you to shoot targets that are far away.

Darkfall definitely seems close to what I imagine when I think about difficult action combat. Though it looked fairly slow in the video, so I guess you could still get more hardcore. ESO didn't feel as precise though. Maybe it was just the class in the video or it just doesn't translate through video as well.

Have you played all 3 (BDO being the 3rd)? Which one would you consider the most difficult one mechanically/aiming-wise?

Darkfall probably was one of the most mechanically difficult action combat games.

Harmtouch

Navv wrote: »

I would love for even the action based combat for archer to be "Tab target" Something like you lock on the target such as some skills do in TERA.
At this time stamp 2:18 https://youtu.be/Jcg4o8IVwlw?t=138 the person in the video is using a skill called "Arrow Voley" that locks on to the target. Sorry for not any better example but I'd love something like this.
Once you are locked on the target auto attacks allways hit both in tab target and action mode, this would allow for free movment as well + free aim usage of abilities while keeping target selected. unless target runs out of range or breaks line of sight.

I think the "Arrow Voley" mechanic looked really intersting and something that Interpid should consider.

If you have the chance, look up my suggestion named "Suggestion for Magic Action Combat" an let me know what you think.

PenguinPaladin

Voidwalkers wrote: »

So, please just let the tab targeting stick around, and let action-aimed skills remain as OPTIONs.

Tab targeting ranged base attacks seems best for a hybrid system imo.

Because, if you add the layer of, aim it yourself to base attacks. The player should be rewarded for that skill of aiming, and having a reward for base attacking correctly would start to unbalance the system. I agree with voidwalker there.

Action based melee attacking with their arched hitboxes fits well in a hybrid system because your aim doesnt need to be so precise with it, and there for it doesnt need to be rewarded. It just need to feel appropriate to be satisfying.

Mag7spy

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Voidwalkers wrote: »

So, please just let the tab targeting stick around, and let action-aimed skills remain as OPTIONs.

Tab targeting ranged base attacks seems best for a hybrid system imo.

Because, if you add the layer of, aim it yourself to base attacks. The player should be rewarded for that skill of aiming, and having a reward for base attacking correctly would start to unbalance the system. I agree with voidwalker there.

Action based melee attacking with their arched hitboxes fits well in a hybrid system because your aim doesnt need to be so precise with it, and there for it doesnt need to be rewarded. It just need to feel appropriate to be satisfying.

Like i said in my post before you don't need to be precise soft targeting is something that exist as well. They are also balancing with tab vrs action combat using accuracy.

Mag7spy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfTkVDzSDfM&t=15s

PenguinPaladin

Mag7spy wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Voidwalkers wrote: »

So, please just let the tab targeting stick around, and let action-aimed skills remain as OPTIONs.

Tab targeting ranged base attacks seems best for a hybrid system imo.

Because, if you add the layer of, aim it yourself to base attacks. The player should be rewarded for that skill of aiming, and having a reward for base attacking correctly would start to unbalance the system. I agree with voidwalker there.

Action based melee attacking with their arched hitboxes fits well in a hybrid system because your aim doesnt need to be so precise with it, and there for it doesnt need to be rewarded. It just need to feel appropriate to be satisfying.

Like i said in my post before you don't need to be precise soft targeting is something that exist as well. They are also balancing with tab vrs action combat using accuracy.

Soft targeting does exist yes, and the magic bow from dragons dogma is an example yes.

But im saying imo. Just to get my opinion out there. Soft targeting doesnt accomplish what the action combat side of ranged attacking wants i beleive. I dont think its a "compromise" where anyone is happy. Tab target players would perfer simple tab target, action players would perfer a fully fleshed out aiming system with rewards. And compromising to a solf targeting system manages to give neither side what they want. Im sure it could be done in an enjoyable way if they did go that route. Im sure with enough effort in any route they choose will end up in a playable state. Just discussing.

Mag7spy

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Voidwalkers wrote: »

So, please just let the tab targeting stick around, and let action-aimed skills remain as OPTIONs.

Tab targeting ranged base attacks seems best for a hybrid system imo.

Because, if you add the layer of, aim it yourself to base attacks. The player should be rewarded for that skill of aiming, and having a reward for base attacking correctly would start to unbalance the system. I agree with voidwalker there.

Action based melee attacking with their arched hitboxes fits well in a hybrid system because your aim doesnt need to be so precise with it, and there for it doesnt need to be rewarded. It just need to feel appropriate to be satisfying.

Like i said in my post before you don't need to be precise soft targeting is something that exist as well. They are also balancing with tab vrs action combat using accuracy.

Soft targeting does exist yes, and the magic bow from dragons dogma is an example yes.

But im saying imo. Just to get my opinion out there. Soft targeting doesnt accomplish what the action combat side of ranged attacking wants i beleive. I dont think its a "compromise" where anyone is happy. Tab target players would perfer simple tab target, action players would perfer a fully fleshed out aiming system with rewards. And compromising to a solf targeting system manages to give neither side what they want. Im sure it could be done in an enjoyable way if they did go that route. Im sure with enough effort in any route they choose will end up in a playable state. Just discussing.

Soft target is fine literarily every mmo including bdo uses it. New world is the only one that did full free aim.

Mag7spy

You can see in this video in bdo with his marker and the angel the arrows go. Bdo being a pretty fast pace game if a game as slower pace there won't be any issue using it. You still will need to aim somewhat but this is what action players want. You can control of your character and can shoot, over just pressing tab and spamming a button to do a basic attack which doesn't feel like a actual battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MqVeJXVxi4

falcorpix

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Soft targeting does exist yes, and the magic bow from dragons dogma is an example yes.

But im saying imo. Just to get my opinion out there. Soft targeting doesnt accomplish what the action combat side of ranged attacking wants i beleive. I dont think its a "compromise" where anyone is happy. Tab target players would perfer simple tab target, action players would perfer a fully fleshed out aiming system with rewards. And compromising to a solf targeting system manages to give neither side what they want. Im sure it could be done in an enjoyable way if they did go that route. Im sure with enough effort in any route they choose will end up in a playable state. Just discussing.

As a action combat lover I have to disagree, I think I speak for a lot of us when I say we dont want to play an FPS. Surely theres someone out there that disagrees, but I think most action combat MMO players would agree.
Soft targeting in general is the best option, as it allows the combat to be fast paced, if we have to aim every shot to the head it just slows down combat, that would be New World all over again, no one wants that.
However, I could see 1 or 2 skills requiring full aim to hit a weak spot.

Mag7spy

I don't even see weak spot for that tbh, i feel like it be some charge free aim shot for long change. Charge so you can't just use it without consequence as it would most likely do high damage.

Dygz

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Soft targeting does exist yes, and the magic bow from dragons dogma is an example yes.

But im saying imo. Just to get my opinion out there. Soft targeting doesnt accomplish what the action combat side of ranged attacking wants i beleive. I dont think its a "compromise" where anyone is happy.

If I recall correctly, NWO had soft-lock/aim-assist.
I liked it fine.

(I also enjoy New World combat, but that’s not an RPG - and I don’t know that I’d like it for an RPG.)

NyxiLeon

Dolyem wrote: »

I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre.

/topic

ItsmeToki

NyxiLeon wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre.

/topic

I think Dolyem has a point there. If basic attacks take too much efford to land and the game is only designed for a specific and minor player circle as action players represent in mmos right now, I think the game will face the same fade like New World did. I think hybrid combat is a good base for designing all ranged dps classes. Either that or make action combat for some classes exclusive so that you can balance those action combat based classes easier. If you do the balancing of those classes, test them with pro fps players first, so that you can get an understanding of the maximum dmg output and limit them properly. So that we dont have an overtuned bow fiesta like in New World. Problem solved.

...Btw. Even the New World devs recogniesed that bows are too strong right now in OPR and they are going to nerf them with the next patch. You see if you have classes with high range you need to be carefull of how much dmg you can allow them to have.

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