Jail and bounty hunter as punishment for corrupted players

I love all the concepts of AOC. It seems to me to be the MMORPG that the players give the freedom, possibility, responsibility and social interactions back that are missing in almost all today's MMORPG.

The only system, as far as I inform me, is the PvP Flagged system (non-combat, combat, corrupted). It will probably be a good system to punish Ganker, but I am against that the system itself (by debuffs, gradation of equipment, half-loot drop) punishes the Corrupted players. This would be an automated system, similar to BDO, that players would take responsibility and possibility to solve such problems.

Instead, I would like the punishment to be shifted to the Bounty Hunter System with the addition of a player driven jail system (similar to Archeage).

The Corrupted Player would not only have the Bounty Hunter as a punishment, but also the prison, depending on the severity of his crime.

This would bring significantly more responsibility and social interactions to the players than a currupt system that weakens you with debuffs and bounty hunters who kill you. After that there would be no consequences.

In order for all of this to work, the bounty hunters must also be rewarded very well, so that there are more bounty hunters than Ganker.

What do u guys think about that?

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Ludullu

I haven't played AA, so what exactly did you do in prison? Was it literally "you can't do shit in the game for some amount of time"? Cause that sounds like the literal worst mechanic to me. Yes, punish me for doing a bad thing in the game, but don't stop me from literally playing the game.

And as for BHs, yes, I'm waiting for them to reveal more about their mechanic because I definitely want them to have more impact on the overall system.

Dygz

Ashes won't have jails.
Bounty Hunting the Corrupted is a feature - yes.

Asgerr

I would be against jails. It's one thing to be punished by having people hunting you and be able to fight back, hoping you don't lose some items.

It's another to have the game forcibly stop you from playing for a duration. You're paying a sub. You shouldn't be prevented from being able to play the game, just because you played the game .

tautau

In AA the trial/jail system struck me as very weak. Innovative yes, but weak. Many players would always vote innocent. Often the accused would threaten jurors. The punishments were trivial.

I like the proposed AoC much much more.

Sophisticus

NiKr wrote: »

I haven't played AA, so what exactly did you do in prison? Was it literally "you can't do shit in the game for some amount of time"? Cause that sounds like the literal worst mechanic to me. Yes, punish me for doing a bad thing in the game, but don't stop me from literally playing the game.

And as for BHs, yes, I'm waiting for them to reveal more about their mechanic because I definitely want them to have more impact on the overall system.

As a jury, you can send the criminal to prison for up to 350min. Once in prison, you can either break out, do work to reduce or wait.

Most who want to continue playing would probably do work in prison. It works quickly in AA. From 350 min to 30min, for example. I think this would be sufficient punishment. Hunted by bounty hunters, killed and put into prison, where you work out his crime.

I like this idea much more than being punished automatically by a system.

Sophisticus

Otr wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

In order for all of this to work, the bounty hunters must also be rewarded very well, so that there are more bounty hunters than Ganker.

What do u guys think about that?

All bots will be bounty hunters. Dare to kill one.

A bot that can track a player's whereabouts and also manages to find and kill it? Have never heard of such good bots. Most bots access game data that are fixed. But no idea. I'm not an expert.

I hope that Intrepid would bann most of the bot and RMT users. I also think that it is not a good argument to say that you shouldn't add an idea that can be abused form bots or other exploits. Then you can also remove player-to-player trading as in BDO. This would completely prevent RMT. But AOC takes the risk, which I think is great.

Sophisticus

Asgerr wrote: »

I would be against jails. It's one thing to be punished by having people hunting you and be able to fight back, hoping you don't lose some items.

It's another to have the game forcibly stop you from playing for a duration. You're paying a sub. You shouldn't be prevented from being able to play the game, just because you played the game .

Then I am right. The prison is apparently sufficient for you as a deterrent, so that you think about three times whether you kill a low lvl player ^^

Joking aside. As I said, you could reduce your time in prison. For example from 300min to 30min. I think a minimum of 30min should be enough to deter it, but at the same time not make open World PvP impossible. In addition, the prison system would only use if, for example, a corrupted player has reached a high degree of corruption.

Sophisticus

tautau wrote: »

In AA the trial/jail system struck me as very weak. Innovative yes, but weak. Many players would always vote innocent. Often the accused would threaten jurors. The punishments were trivial.

I like the proposed AoC much much more.

I agree with that. I also talk more about the idea here. How much it will be punished will be shown when it is added.

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

Most who want to continue playing would probably do work in prison. It works quickly in AA. From 350 min to 30min, for example. I think this would be sufficient punishment. Hunted by bounty hunters, killed and put into prison, where you work out his crime.

Does that work give you any benefit or is it a glorified minigame just to pass the time and shorten the sentence?

Sophisticus wrote: »

I like this idea much more than being punished automatically by a system.

You're being "punished by the system" for not fighting back too. You'll lose more stuff if you refuse to fight, while a potential harassing "criminal" would lose less if they were to die. So the whole system doesn't quite work by the logic of our real lives.

If the prison work gives you benefits - you're rewarding killers. If it doesn't give you benefits - you're wasting people's time, on top of having already punished them by the current system. And if you suggest replacing the current punishment with the prison - you're just wasting their time instead of having a tangible punishment. And depending on how prison's gameplay is designed, I'd assume most hardcore PKers will find a way to automate that gameplay and won't even see it as a punishment at all.

And then, if you decide to have something like a "3 strikes and you're out" system, where the more kills you have - the higher the prison time, you're pretty much removing owPK potential. Especially if the jury can be controlled in any way (which, I assume, is the case).

In the current system, becoming a PKer means you'll either have to grind mobs while being on the run or die 1+ times and just do what you would've been doing either way to remove the XP debt. It doesn't take you out of the game and, for those people who enjoy living on the edge, it even gives more depth to the gameplay. Having a prison system would either not influence PKing at all, while just annoying people with meaningless non-gameplay tasks (if the prison time is short), or it would lead to potential removal of PKing for some people, while others do it w/o any punishment (depending on how jury is selected).

As I see it, a system-based arbitration of punishment is much better than potential abuse of the system.

Sophisticus

NiKr wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

Most who want to continue playing would probably do work in prison. It works quickly in AA. From 350 min to 30min, for example. I think this would be sufficient punishment. Hunted by bounty hunters, killed and put into prison, where you work out his crime.

Does that work give you any benefit or is it a glorified minigame just to pass the time and shorten the sentence?
[quote="Sophisticus;c-349199"I like this idea much more than being punished automatically by a system.
You're being "punished by the system" for not fighting back too. You'll lose more stuff if you refuse to fight, while a potential harassing "criminal" would lose less if they were to die. So the whole system doesn't quite work by the logic of our real lives.

The only advantage of working in prison is that you reduce your time.

Yes, it "wastes" the time of the players. And just that is the punishment that seems to all already ensure that it is a deterrent here in the forum ^^ How long you are minimally in prison can be clarified. For my standards, 30 minutes to 1 hour are daunting enough. Depending on how bad the jury looks at your crime (or how high your corruption is). If you have a very high value and the jury can be explained by the criminal and then the victim, then it is due to the jury to question eyewitnesses. This is how it is done in AA. Most of the time, the jury receives descriptions via global chat. If there are no eyewitnesses, the jury has to decide who they believe. This then leads to really entertaining discussions and communications between the players.

This system would replace the other punishments (debuffs, dropping loot).

And as I said above i so think that it is not a good argument to say that you shouldn't add an idea that can be abused or exploited from players. A Lot of Ideas in AOC Can Be Abused. Then you can thus remove player-to-player trading as in BDO. This would complete. But Aoc Takes the Risk, which I think is great.

You would have to balance the minimum and maximum time that you spend in prison. Of course. Ultimately, I am concerned with replacing this automated punishment system with a more socially interactive.

This enables the players to punish the context, which means significantly more communication and responsibility. This is a concept that fits perfectly in AOC.

CoStark

i personally loved archage's jury/trial system, the first time i experienced it was literally hilarious. I think it'd be cool to include the aforementioned ideas, but to coincide with the current bounty hunter system, maybe give the bounty hunter the option to "kill" or "take to trial". Kinda adds more depth. Feel free to tell me you think this is a bad idea.

Sophisticus

running away and hunting between Corrupted players and bounty hunters can stay. Everything can stay that way. I just don't want an automated system that punishes me regardless of the context (debuff, dropping loot). But the bounty system alone would not endure as punishment. For this reason the prison that is player driven.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

You're being "punished by the system" for not fighting back too. You'll lose more stuff if you refuse to fight, while a potential harassing "criminal" would lose less if they were to die. So the whole system doesn't quite work by the logic of our real lives.

No. Combatants are rewarded by the system for fighting back. With half the normal death penalties.
Non-Combatants get the normal death penalties when they are killed in in PvP. Same death penalties as when killed by a mob.

Sophisticus

CoStark wrote: »

i personally loved archage's jury/trial system, the first time i experienced it was literally hilarious. I think it'd be cool to include the aforementioned ideas, but to coincide with the current bounty hunter system, maybe give the bounty hunter the option to "kill" or "take to trial". Kinda adds more depth. Feel free to tell me you think this is a bad idea.

i love this idea

But if he is then killed instead of being brought to prison, then you would have to work with debuffs and dropping loot because I think its just don't be enough as a deterrent.

Sophisticus

Dygz wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

You're being "punished by the system" for not fighting back too. You'll lose more stuff if you refuse to fight, while a potential harassing "criminal" would lose less if they were to die. So the whole system doesn't quite work by the logic of our real lives.

No. Combatants are rewarded by the system for fighting back. With half the normal death penalties.
Non-Combatants get the normal death penalties when they are killed in in PvP. Same death penalties as when killed by a mob.

I have not written this sentence that you quote. I don't know exactly how it works with quoting. Is my first post here.

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

Yes, it "wastes" the time of the players.

This system would replace the other punishments (debuffs, dropping loot).

You would have to balance the minimum and maximum time that you spend in prison. Of course. Ultimately, I am concerned with replacing this automated punishment system with a more socially interactive.

So you want to waste people's time instead of just punishing them. Doing mundane shit in the game is not really a punishment. Definitely not to me or any other L2 (or other grindy mmo) veteran. Especially if I can just go on a complete genocide until I get caught, because there's no system-based prevention for that kind of thing.

Or does the criminal get auto-caught the very second they're done with their crime?

Also, how long does the jury process take and how random is the picking of said jury? What about afk people who get caught by the system? How are witnesses chosen?

To me, those all sound like a waste of my in-game time, no matter which side of the issue I'm on.

I did the crime? I'd rather just go immediately to jail, quickly do the mundane work and go back to killing people.
I was a witness and don't know the criminal? Why would I waste my time on dealing with that shit, when I have other things to do. And if this is done through chat, my hands would most likely be busy with mob killing so I wouldn't even be able to say anything.
I was a witness who knew the criminal and was on his side? Does the game tell that to the jury? How does the game even know that? And if it doesn't, then what's stopping just 5-10 dudes to run around with their designated PKer and always be on his side during the trial?
And if what stops them is non-random jury, then how do you know that the jury themselves wouldn't just be a part of the same group and would always forgive the criminal?
And if the jury is randomly picked and I happen to be on it, then it's back to 2nd point - it's a waste of my time trying to figure out who's at fault in some little squabble 200km from me.
Also, does the whole server see all trials? Cause I'd assume you have to see them, otherwise randomized jury would just not work. And if everyone knows all the criminals, it would be even easier to avoid the punishment. You just say "whoever votes "innocent" gets some money/resource/etc from me". And now the criminal can kill however many casuals/lowbies w/o a single shred of punishment.

Overall, this system seem so much more flawed to me, than a simple "you did the crime and didn't get away with it? You're fairly severely punished". And if the BH system is well-designed on top of that, then you won't even get away with your crime.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

No. Combatants are rewarded by the system for fighting back. With half the normal death penalties.
Non-Combatants get the normal death penalties when they are killed in in PvP. Same death penalties as when killed by a mob.

Potatoh potahto, Dygz. It's about the pov. The point is, you're punished for dying. A "criminal" that attacks other people gets less of a punishment than a non-criminal does and a murderer gets an even bigger punishment - and that is not how irl works, while this prison system tries to imitate real life.

Dolyem

Hard no on the prisons. "timeout" is not a suitable punishment seeing as its basically a soft ban for a period of time for participating in the games intended features.

Sophisticus

NiKr wrote: »

So you want to waste people's time instead of just punishing them. Doing mundane shit in the game is not really a punishment. Definitely not to me or any other L2 (or other grindy mmo) veteran. Especially if I can just go on a complete genocide until I get caught, because there's no system-based prevention for that kind of thing.

The "wasted" time in prison is punishment. After you have killed some low level players, then being marked as a corrupted player, hunted by bounty hunters and being stuck in prison for, for example, minimum for 30 minutes, is there no punishment for you? Especially today, when many have little time to play an MMORPG, such a time robbery seems to me to be a very big punishment.

NiKr wrote: »

Or does the criminal get auto-caught the very second they're done with their crime?

No, a bounty hunter would have to catch or kill you so that the bounty hunter system would be installed. Then you would be placed in front of the jury.

NiKr wrote: »

Also, how long does the jury process take and how random is the picking of said jury? What about afk people who get caught by the system? How are witnesses chosen?

The length of the process depends on the jury. The faster they make a judgment, the faster the process is finished.
The jury selection is very random in AA. Every player can go to the judge Halle and register as a jury. As soon as a process starts, you are asked by the game whether you want to participate as a jury. If you accept the invitation, you will be teleported into the hall.

The jury has to decide on AFK players. That is the whole meaning behind this idea. The players should decide. Based on the amount of the corruption, the jury could decide or based on statements by the witnesses if there are any. Then the criminal missed his chance to defend himself.

In AA, the jury is looking for witnesses in the judgment chat that everyone can see on the server. Like a global chat. Sometimes there are some and sometimes not. On the basis of these statements (criminal, victims and witnesses), the jury then decides. Of course, they must weigh whether the statements are credible or not. That is all the fun for Roleplayer.

NiKr wrote: »

I did the crime? I'd rather just go immediately to jail, quickly do the mundane work and go back to killing people.

You can do that. Then u have to yield to a bounty hunter and then go to prison for a certain time. And to reduce your time in prison, you can broken a few stones or collect rat feces

If that's not a punishment. It costs you time.

NiKr wrote: »

[*] I was a witness and don't know the criminal? Why would I waste my time on dealing with that shit, when I have other things to do. And if this is done through chat, my hands would most likely be busy with mob killing so I wouldn't even be able to say anything.

You are really very focused to save time. You just don't like the idea. Just say it. It is not because the idea has weaknesses, but that you simply don't like the idea of wasting ur time. If you would like the pure idea, then you would help to think of this system instead of talking all the time of wasting time. You don't see the fun of it, so you look at it as a waste of time. Otherwise you do not have to report in the judgment chat and do not give the jury a statement. As a witness, you are not obliged to do anything.

NiKr wrote: »

[*] I was a witness who knew the criminal and was on his side? Does the game tell that to the jury? How does the game even know that? And if it doesn't, then what's stopping just 5-10 dudes to run around with their designated PKer and always be on his side during the trial?

The game cannot know whether the witness and criminals work together And it doesn't need to know either. The jury has to find out. This is all the fun. It is definitely fun for many Roleplayers and at the same time punishes criminals. It's great.

NiKr wrote: »

[*] And if what stops them is non-random jury, then how do you know that the jury themselves wouldn't just be a part of the same group and would always forgive the criminal?

Any players who follow the jury and the judgment chat will know. At least the victim will know that something doesn't go properly. Other juries will then come (for example the victim itself) to make honest judgments themselves. So it was in AA. This system could also be built into the political system, where the mayor of a node has an eye on it and can bann players from the jury in his node. Sure, the mayor of the node could also work with the jury and the criminal, perhaps the whole guild from a node, maybe even the whole server

I have a quote from Steven Sharif itself to a similar topic. Thats the Vision of this Game:

Q: How will you stop big mafia guilds from owning all the good dungeons and world bosses by camping them?

A: The real answer to that is going to be what traditionally happens in a non-faction-based game where politics drive player interaction... Over time you have betrayals in the mafia guild and they splinter off into two groups and join the other side or it's like weird things that can occur in that regard. So I think that's the important way that will solve itself. I don't think the developer necessarily has to step in there and say no, let's railroad this politics or let's hand hold this aspect. I think that any time you have a bully, you're going to have a counter bully and that's something that we try to encourage as part of the politics process. – Steven Sharif

NiKr wrote: »

[*] And if the jury is randomly picked and I happen to be on it, then it's back to 2nd point - it's a waste of my time trying to figure out who's at fault in some little squabble 200km from me.

Again this focus on time ^^ just play the game and have fun

Otherwise, don't register as a jury. Only those who register as a jury are also invited by the game.

NiKr wrote: »

[*] Also, does the whole server see all trials? Cause I'd assume you have to see them, otherwise randomized jury would just not work. And if everyone knows all the criminals, it would be even easier to avoid the punishment. You just say "whoever votes "innocent" gets some money/resource/etc from me". And now the criminal can kill however many casuals/lowbies w/o a single shred of punishment.

In AA, every player, even those who were not part of the process, could go into the judges Halle and experience the process, or you have followed it through the jury chat.

More freedom, responsibility and possibilities in MMORPGs. We have enough automated MMORPGs that decrease the last freedom and responsibility for our own decisions. And I want this vision to be expressed in every system of AOC.

NiKr wrote: »

Overall, this system seem so much more flawed to me, than a simple "you did the crime and didn't get away with it? You're fairly severely punished".

It is not "flawed ", its unpredictable. Is a huge difference.

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

It is not "flawed ", its unpredictable. Is a huge difference.

A huge guild just registers as jury (upwards of multiple hundred people potentially) and can pretty much control the entire process, just based on the statistical possibility of their members getting picked to be the juror on any given case.

At that point you're literally giving those "mafia" guilds the power to control who gets punished and who doesn't. The "RPers love this mechanic" is cool and all, but when a huge hardcore guild is abusing said mechanic it's no longer just an RP thing.

And I know what exactly Steven is talking about in that quote. I've been on the both sides of the "big guild crumbles under its own weight" situation, but that usually happens when there's limited resources in the game or if some party in the guild feels like they were fucked over. But I really don't see how a "sign up as a juror and keep saying everyone's innocent" order from the GL could destroy a guild But what that order would destroy is any casual's existence on the server, because the whole system would be flawed.

Afaik AA had a faction-based pvp system and you could only PK people on your own side in particular circumstances (correct me if I'm wrong), while in Ashes literally anyone can kill literally anyone else. It's not like you'd be going against your own people, but instead you could just kill whoever and then walk free because your huge guild took up the majority of jury signups.

As for time wasting, going to jail for 30 minutes is literally nothing to me if it allows me to kill dozens of people w/o any punishment. The current system is in place to minimize those exact situations, while this prison system doesn't seem to do that at all, unless you somehow control who exactly gets on the jury instead of it being purely random. And the "witness" part is still flawed because, as I said, the criminal's friends could just support him always.

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