Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis. Yeah, to me BDO seems fairly slow. Yes, you gotta dodge here and there correctly, but even from the video you posted, it's mainly a waiting game for a half-second impact, while doing 3-4 same abilities. And I'd assume it's even simpler in mass pvp, just because you don't have the benefit of taking your time with the fight. And even in the last video that mag posted, I don't see any precision aiming as I would've imagined it to be for peak action fighting. It's mainly general direction and 30-40 degree conal aoe or a pointed 3-4m diameter aoe. To me that ain't fucking aiming. I know that my example of pixel hunting has been dismissed before, but catching a few-pixel-wide fast-moving character seems way more difficult than aiming in a general direction. Azherae wrote: » I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not. Eh, to me this is just casual discussion based purely on self-reported feelings of gameplay, from all sides. People tend to overexaggerate their experiences so I try to account for that and build a rough estimate of what the "truth" is. Obviously videos don't show it. And w/o putting in hundreds of hours in either of the games, I wouldn't know how those games truly feel. But I definitely appreciate your input on this. Especially knowing that you're trying to ignore mag's posts (considering that's like 40% of combat threads ). Even given this, it seems to have reached a point of egregiousness that maybe I don't have the same level of tolerance for. I do have some parallel experiences from fighting games, of course, the sort of person who looks at a playstyle and goes 'That's the wrong way to play that character' or 'you should use X move more' on a YouTube video, then gets flamed to hell because the video is from one of the top 10 players in the world of said character. Which is followed by the usual response of 'Bro I don't care if you're top in the world you play this character wrong I could beat you easy' (even when the video is not posted by the actual player, as is now common). It really isn't relevant whether or not these people actually believe what they are saying, I personally find it important that the uninitiated do not believe what they are saying. Similarly, even I were to claim, right now, that I AM the player in that video, or a friend of theirs, the response would be equally backward, I'd expect. Because if it were not, it would mean the speaker would have to cease based on it. They never do. They just double down. The reason is pretty normal. Mag THINKS that these things are impressive or difficult or require lots of practice, for others. Mag also thinks that anyone who disagrees must be worse or less knowledgeable at whatever or they wouldn't hold the same opinion. Before I wasn't sure that I was more knowledgeable than Mag is. Now I'm sure. And it's not even that I hold a different opinion than Mag does about BDO (though Mag seems to need it to be so). It's that I know better than to hold a lesser opinion of other similar games based on their Targeting system. Mag is the sort of person who 'does not believe in Xiaohai', a player who once entered a serious tournament for a game considered to have great depth, learned to play the game that day, and won the tournament based on fundamental skills accumulated from other games. I merely offer my perspective because it's so textbook, I guess.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis. Yeah, to me BDO seems fairly slow. Yes, you gotta dodge here and there correctly, but even from the video you posted, it's mainly a waiting game for a half-second impact, while doing 3-4 same abilities. And I'd assume it's even simpler in mass pvp, just because you don't have the benefit of taking your time with the fight. And even in the last video that mag posted, I don't see any precision aiming as I would've imagined it to be for peak action fighting. It's mainly general direction and 30-40 degree conal aoe or a pointed 3-4m diameter aoe. To me that ain't fucking aiming. I know that my example of pixel hunting has been dismissed before, but catching a few-pixel-wide fast-moving character seems way more difficult than aiming in a general direction. Azherae wrote: » I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not. Eh, to me this is just casual discussion based purely on self-reported feelings of gameplay, from all sides. People tend to overexaggerate their experiences so I try to account for that and build a rough estimate of what the "truth" is. Obviously videos don't show it. And w/o putting in hundreds of hours in either of the games, I wouldn't know how those games truly feel. But I definitely appreciate your input on this. Especially knowing that you're trying to ignore mag's posts (considering that's like 40% of combat threads ).
Azherae wrote: » Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis.
Azherae wrote: » I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not.
Mag7spy wrote: » The video Azherae posted is the most ratty pvp you will see on bdo as its 1v1 and they both don't want to get cc'd or get one combed they aren't going to fully commit and it depends as well on classes. I'd look more so for good pvp where someone is fighting multiple people at the same time it will give a better representations. With the aoe skills again its there to make it easier but it is 100% still aiming. Some classes don't require it as much but compared to tab target in the clips shown with EQ2 it is night and day. If you play some high end pvp you would see as people will get behind you and your aoes. Your skills will miss with their movements as well if you play it you will understand with pvp.
NiKr wrote: » As is tradition, this is not really getting anywhere, so I'll just go back to watching For All Mankind. Good talk
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » It is 100% possible though not as efficient to click if you are fast in tab target. No it isn't. Specific to EQ2... You use your mouse for both character direction and camera direction. Between these two, the mouse is already fully engaged. You often use the mouse to run as well, not just to determine direction. The only movement action that isn't generally done on the mouse is strafing. Further to that, if you are clicking abilities, you are not able to click them as fast as you need to. Even if you are focused 100% on your hot bar, when you get to the top end of the game, you simply can't maintain the pace that you need to maintain. Even further to this, there are some encounters in which you NEED to use your mouse to mouse over detrimental effects in order to see which effect is applied. The developers specifically developed content in this manner, so that you NEED to identify two different effects, both of which were given the same icon. If you cleanse the wrong effect - even once - the raid wipes. If you are a mouse clicker, you simply don't have time to identify the detriment and then cleanse it. Honestly, I haven't come across a mouse clicker in an MMO in YEARS. Actual years. The last one I saw was probably around 2008. Your suggestion that 90% of players are mouse clickers just seems outright wrong from my perspective. But hey, since action games require less actual actions from players, maybe it's feasible in those games - so I'm not saying you're incorrect here, just that you are pointing out how much less actual action there is in an action game over a tab game. For example in the pvp videos as I've said before they pretty much have akin to a global cooldown as every skill has a bar on it, (some longer then others) before the skill is used. If that bar is .5-1 second and you can't do actions in-between it. How are you saying you are doing more button inputs then BDO? This is the cast bar. It is essentially a visual representation of the time an actions animation has to run. Basically, the ability is activated, the animation starts, and the cast bar is a representation of how long the animation has left to run. Also, "animation canceling" is a thing. All you need to do is press Esc. This just shows why I said a while ago that videos of games you do not understand are of no real purpose - as you do not understand it. You are looking at one mechanic and just assuming it is a different mechanic - which no real idea what either mechanics even are. It would take dozens of posts to explain the basics of that video to you, and I really can't be bothered with that.
Mag7spy wrote: » It is 100% possible though not as efficient to click if you are fast in tab target.
For example in the pvp videos as I've said before they pretty much have akin to a global cooldown as every skill has a bar on it, (some longer then others) before the skill is used. If that bar is .5-1 second and you can't do actions in-between it. How are you saying you are doing more button inputs then BDO?
Azherae wrote: » Yeah fine...
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The video Azherae posted is the most ratty pvp you will see on bdo as its 1v1 and they both don't want to get cc'd or get one combed they aren't going to fully commit and it depends as well on classes. I'd look more so for good pvp where someone is fighting multiple people at the same time it will give a better representations. With the aoe skills again its there to make it easier but it is 100% still aiming. Some classes don't require it as much but compared to tab target in the clips shown with EQ2 it is night and day. If you play some high end pvp you would see as people will get behind you and your aoes. Your skills will miss with their movements as well if you play it you will understand with pvp. Oh? Well good thing this is a top NA championship tournament that the game makers themselves have been promoting ingame for weeks now or man, I'd be worried that I chose a terrible video that people couldn't just go to 4:20:00 of instead for a look at the exact thing you claim. Also this is partially more 'lies', as Succession Kunoichi I can tell you that the number of skills used in that time compared to Ashes is about the same or less. I think Mag counts things like Ghost Step (directional evasion like that seen in the Combat video recently) and Ghost Greeting (forward moving slash) as 'skills', which isn't wrong per se... But yeah, no. I'll wait while you dig up and replant your goalposts again.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Yeah fine... I wrote that before your response to Mag. I appreciate you explaining more about BDO's mechanics. I knew that Mag counted all moves as "skills" and just let it slide, while counting the real decisions in that fight. To me a "I move towards the enemy, do an attack, see if it landed and tree out into more attacks or dodge and run" as 4 decisions, even if it took 20 skill uses to execute. And by the looks of it, those were the 4 main decisions in that fight (I mean, they probably always are, though that's obviously a super simplification). I'm sure there's a few debuffs/buffs in there that might add a semi-tree here in there, but not much on top of that. In L2, I'd have a 4-branched choice literally in the first second of the fight. EQ2's pvp might be a bit more simplistic just because it's not a pvp-main game, but I'd assume it's high lvl pve has quite a few branches too. Now that's not to say that BDO can't be or isn't complex, but when most of your decisions are "what direction to use with the next attack", I feel like it brings down the overall DPM by a fair bit. I might be wrong in that assumption though.
Mag7spy wrote: » When I say 100% possible I mean you can move with WASD and use an ability at the same time with que to hit your target since you don't need to aim, the game will aim for you and attack the target. Not saying you are going to do it fast or as well, that is why i said not as efficiently.
In every EQ2 video I've posted all them have been clicking spells
I'm well aware you can stop a tab target animation that doesn't make you use skills any faster though just stops your skills so I don't understand why you are bringing up that point like its something to write home about.
Dygz wrote: » Not going to get anywhere with you in any case - which is why this thread has 8 pages. + other threads.
Mag7spy wrote: » I think its weird that you say top people don't record gameplay when that is at ends with like every other game nowadays.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I think its weird that you say top people don't record gameplay when that is at ends with like every other game nowadays. Back in "my day", gamers weren't empty shells.of people that needed recognition from others in order to be able to enjoy playing a game. Without that constant, deep-seated need for recognition, there really wasnt any point in recording gameplay, let alone sharing it. What is weird isnt that people playing games in the past didnt record and share it, the weird thing is that people now put a greater focus on that than on playing the game. Although, to be fair to you and your generation, action games aren't generally fun enough in their own right. If you are playing one, you probably have a lot of down time at your computer where you just dont want to play the game at all, and so may as well edit a video or something. Since most action games are all about the look rather than the gameplay, this kind of aligns up nicely. Now, as to why I am not going to log in to EQ2 to record a video to attempt to show you anything - if you cant understand from having things explained to you, you will not understand from looking at a video that makes ko sense to you. Keep in mind, you just recently mistook a cast bar for some aspect of a GCD. Add that to other things you have got wrong about tab target games and it is just blatant you dont have the base level knowledge of the genre to be able to gain anything useful from a video.
Mag7spy wrote: » Back then there wasn't good platforms
Actions games a lot more fun then anything EQ2 is doing, that is exactly way that game is dead in the water, and couldn't hold a handle to WoW. Only point you can argue is there are no videos because the game isnt good enough to keep a audience when they can play a better game WoW.
Cast bar and GWC have the same function to me doesn't really matter
end of the day that is the truth of the matter as tab works differently than action as the animation matters as you need to hit your target.
Else you would have brought clips, and talked exactly what other skills you can use and how you can get more button inputs in.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Back then there wasn't good platforms I mean, YouTube came out 3 months after EQ2. It was popular enough before the games first expansion came out. Actions games a lot more fun then anything EQ2 is doing, that is exactly way that game is dead in the water, and couldn't hold a handle to WoW. Only point you can argue is there are no videos because the game isnt good enough to keep a audience when they can play a better game WoW. Tabula Rasa. Hellvage: London. Wildstar. Tera. Divine Souls. Darkspore. Firefall. That is just 7 of the action combat MMO's that began development after EQ2 was released, and are no longer available to play (some of them never even made it out of beta testing). The list could be much, much longer, but I am just going off the top of my head here. If you want to say that EQ2 isnt for you, not only is that fine but I will actually agree. What you cant say, based on the above, is that action games are more fun. If they were more fun as a blanket statement, some of those games would still be live (Tera and Wildstar being my picks), and EQ2 would not. The fact that EQ2 outlived all of the above action games means it is a better game, objectively. Cast bar and GWC have the same function to me doesn't really matter Just to be clear here, we are having a discussion about action and tab games, and you are saying that not only do you not know the basic mechanics of tab target games, but you actually dont even want to know? I mean, you are literally ignoring objective facts here to attempt to cover over your lack of knowledge on so.ething you have been proven to know little about. You dont get to just have an opinion on objective facts and expect everyone to just go with it. Objective facts are just that - objective. People that *ignore* objective facts and replace them with their own opinion are - by definition - *ignorant*. Sure, in middle school you may have gotten away with just saying "this is my opinion and you cant challenge my opinion", but that doesnt work here. Your opinion here is just wrong, objectively. In the same way older generations let my generation down in regards to the economy, it seems my generation let yours down in terms of education. Fact is, cast bars and GCD both have specific functions they form. If you want to know keep, do what I did - go and as ok someone that developed the combat system for a tab target MMO. Or talk to someone involved in determining if an existing MMO could have its GCD reduced. Or, learns little critical thinking, understand the sumystems at play, and then the above two discussions will simply serve to confirm the theory you already had about them, which is what those two conversations I had many years ago did. Now, if you want to talk about opinion in relation to GCD, we could talk about whether we think they are needed in a current tab target MMO (in my opinion, if the game has an ability queue, they are not). How3ver, the function they are designed to provide is simply not a matter of opinion. end of the day that is the truth of the matter as tab works differently than action as the animation matters as you need to hit your target. Actually, as I have said, animation doesnt matter in an action game. The underlying systems of it are still hit box based, and the animation is just there to give a visual representation of that hit box. Every game will have a mob or weapon where the hitbox doesnt quite line up properly, resulting in either the animation appearing to hit but not, or in the animation appearing to miss but actually hitting. I saw it a.few times in lower level mobs in BDO, but didnt think much of it (and still dont) as every game has this. Fact is (and this one is an actual fact), animations in action games are no more or less important than I tab target games. Both games use a hitbox system to determine if an attack is in range or not. Else you would have brought clips, and talked exactly what other skills you can use and how you can get more button inputs in. Keep in mind, we have long since established that you do not possess the base level understanding of tab target games to he able to gain any information at all from a video. Other than not feeling any need to do so (nor even having software on my computer right now to record gameplay - because I am not an attention starved child), the above is the reason I am not posting any video of EQ2 gameplay. Why would I waste time trying to educate you, when you have shown a great willingness in regards to not wanting to learn? If you want people to spend their time educating you, you at least need to make it seem as if you want to learn. You clearly do not.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Imma @Okeydoke you bro, you forgot L2
Mag7spy wrote: » The fact you think EQ2 is still alive is a joke
Okeydoke wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » Imma @Okeydoke you bro, you forgot L2 Haha never played it. Heard it was really good though. But wait, I never played it. Therefore it must blow.
