DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Otr wrote: »

If the majority of players have a DPS meter and follow a recommended configuration, developers have to design the game content for them. Balancing will have to take into account in great detail everything, with less freedom.
If developers will refuse to make the end content raids for such players (who become the majority by teaching each-other how to play) then the end content will be easy and boring.

Developers should be making end game content based on what they assume to be the best possible character and raid builds - regardless of if players have found them yet or not.

It isn't really end game content if it is not designed with this in mind.

This is literally why end game players are the ones always looking for a better build, or a build that can do a specific thing better. The current encounter may not need that spec, but the next one will - and better we know it before we get to that encounter.

Noaani

Otr wrote: »

He would gladly integrate DPS Meters into the game if these tools would have the capability to bring people together.

As I have said many, many times in this thread, this is exactly what a combat tracker does. It is just a matter of what type of player they bring together.

People look at combat trackers as not being a thing that can join people together simply because they can not join together players that are efficiency focused with those that are essentially efficiency adverse. This is clearly not a great way to look at things.

It isnt as if the crafting interdependency system (another system designed to bring people together) is going to bring those that love crafting together with those that hate crafting. The system is designed to bring together like minded people (those that love crafting). This is how any system should be designed - it is not really in the games best interest for people of different mindsets to be forced to play that closely together - but it IS in the games best interest for similar people with similar mindsets to play together.

This is WHY a combat tracker is a good thing. Sure, if I have one and you dont like them, youbmay well avoid grouping with me. This is a good thing though, not a bad thing. It is good because even without a combat tracker, we would be very different players wanting very different things from out group.

A combat tracker doesnt change the fact that I want to play the game efficiently, and expect those I group with to want to play the game efficiently as well. All it does is signal to others that I want and expect that efficiency. As such, others that want and expect that efficiency will gravitate towards me, and we will group together. We will have the same general mindset.

Essentially, the addition of a combat tracker in game (with a system to denote who has it and who doesnt) will see fewer groups form with players of differing mindsets - which are groups that are highly likely to result in players having a bad time. There would be MORE groups forming with players of similar mindset (either efficiency based or not), and so players are likely to have a better time, and have a greater chance at forming friendships in pick up content.

Essentially, the only way you could claim that combat trackers do not bring people together is if you believe that combat trackers are the genesis of people wanting to play the game efficiently, rather than simply a tool they use to that end.

Dygz

Naoki Yoshida and Steven look at DPS meters as a thing that drives people apart more than joining them together in any good way. Which is why they won't support DPS meters in their games.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Naoki Yoshida and Steven look at DPS meters as a thing that drives people apart more than joining them together in any good way. Which is why they won't support DPS meters in their games.

And both are wrong.

Both are looking at friction that already exists between different segments of the MMO community, and pointing at combat trackers as the cause.

The real cause is the differing mindsets of the different communities.

If I want to run content quickly, and you do not, there is friction. This is the core of the issue that people wrongly blame combat trackers for. A combat tracker doesnt even increase that friction, meaning a lack of combat trackers isnt going to reduce it at all.

Dygz

Well...when you make your game, you'll get to include them.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Well...when you make your game, you'll get to include them.

Are you suggesting we should not share our opinions on what we think game developers are getting wrong?

Noaani

Otr wrote: »

I used DPS Meters before and I still like having dedicated filters to see only the damage output where the game allows. Seeing the damage raining onto the character pollutes the screen and I don't like that.

This is actually another aspect of combat trackers that I have seen people talk about, but I totally forgot until just now.

Many people complain that they dont like a combat tracker cluttering up their screen. My point to this is that a combat tracker doesnt need to take up any screen space at all. Further to this, with a built in combat tracker, you can remove text based combat feedback on screen, without actually losing access to any combat data.

As a result, a combat tracker can actually REDUCE screen clutter, not add to it.

Mag7spy

Dps meters are lame, gms that have extreme focus on metas will also be the first to use exploits as well. If you get denied joining some group cause the guild wants extreme metas only, bring your guild and flag up on them lmao. Though that is also why its important to find the right guild for you, though it might take longer to have that guild to the point to do that content, mainly time constants with members.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dps meters are lame, gms that have extreme focus on metas will also be the first to use exploits as well. If you get denied joining some group cause the guild wants extreme metas only, bring your guild and flag up on them lmao. Though that is also why its important to find the right guild for you, though it might take longer to have that guild to the point to do that content, mainly time constants with members.

In a game where combat trackers are normalized, you aren't going to be denied entry to a top end guild based on having an off-spec.

As someone that has spent most of my time in MMO's as a recruiter for top end guilds, all I care about is your performance. How you arrive at that performance is none of my concern. In fact, not only is a person's build not something I concern myself with, it is something I dont even ask about. The only time we care about the specific build a player is running is if the content requires us to bring specific abilities - in which case we will ask the appropriate people to have the specific abilities we need, and leave them to work out the rest.

As such, if you are denied entry, it is simply a lack of performance (or an issue of personality - which is actually more common than performance issues).

Your assertion that "gms that have extreme focus on metas will also be the first to use exploits as well" is unfounded. First, I am assuming you are incorrectly using the acronym GM to mean guild master , when literally every other MMO player ever would think of Game Master (generally an employee of the publisher, who is charged with direct in game interaction with players). People would generally refer to people that run guilds as guild leaders, or perhaps GLs, but never GM's.

However, ignoring that, in my experience, the people most likely to resort to exploits (especially known exploits) are those that are trying to catch up.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

As such, if you are denied entry, it is simply a lack of performance (or an issue of personality - which is actually more common than performance issues).

I think Intrepid will have to prove that they can create a super in-depth gearing and augment system for this interaction to not be based on just your setup. If there's, say, 20 different ways to achieve the same dps - meters would probably not be an issue during guild searching. But if there's maybe 1-2 ways to get to the very top of dps (in the context of those super difficult bosses Steven wants to have), then meters would lead to a "unless you have this kind of gear/class setup - ya ain't doing max dps" situation.

I hope Intrepid can manage to develop that kind of system, but then, if they can, I'm sure they can make a UI system that tells us enough info about fights w/o any need for meters.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dps meters are lame, gms that have extreme focus on metas will also be the first to use exploits as well. If you get denied joining some group cause the guild wants extreme metas only, bring your guild and flag up on them lmao. Though that is also why its important to find the right guild for you, though it might take longer to have that guild to the point to do that content, mainly time constants with members.

In a game where combat trackers are normalized, you aren't going to be denied entry to a top end guild based on having an off-spec.

As someone that has spent most of my time in MMO's as a recruiter for top end guilds, all I care about is your performance. How you arrive at that performance is none of my concern. In fact, not only is a person's build not something I concern myself with, it is something I dont even ask about. The only time we care about the specific build a player is running is if the content requires us to bring specific abilities - in which case we will ask the appropriate people to have the specific abilities we need, and leave them to work out the rest.

As such, if you are denied entry, it is simply a lack of performance (or an issue of personality - which is actually more common than performance issues).

Your assertion that "gms that have extreme focus on metas will also be the first to use exploits as well" is unfounded. First, I am assuming you are incorrectly using the acronym GM to mean guild master , when literally every other MMO player ever would think of Game Master (generally an employee of the publisher, who is charged with direct in game interaction with players). People would generally refer to people that run guilds as guild leaders, or perhaps GLs, but never GM's.

However, ignoring that, in my experience, the people most likely to resort to exploits (especially known exploits) are those that are trying to catch up.

I love how you don't read post, whole paragraph on nothing, this guy loves to argue with himself.

KapStoan

If there is a DPS meter option, it will in a very short period of time become a requirement for any serious group leader. I personally feel that is a bad standard to allow to set in because it will become exclusionary, it reduces the game down to staring at numbers, and will be used as the one metric for success or failure of a group member.

Bad games like WoW with no teamwork required rely on DPS meters because the entire challenge of a boss encounter is how much health the boss has and how quickly you can reduce it, and because the only scaling that exists is just increasing the amount of health it has. Depending on how detailed the hitpoint numbers are for mobs, the idea of a "top dps" may not even be something they want to reveal to the players at all. I've heard Steven talk about obfuscating the HP meter so players aren't just staring at the meter and are allowed the freedom to actually be immersed in strategic gameplay.

Certainly players of all commitment levels will be interested in their performance, so there should be a way to track your personal statistics. Here are some things I think should be easy for any player to display about themselves. These should be able to be tracked with an overall that has a reset button, as well as one with a timer (next 10 minutes) and one that tracks the last fight. There should be a copy / paste that allows the data to be saved outside the game:

Top hit
Top crit
Crit %
Abilities used in order of damage / healing / CC done
Average hit
DPS

However, this data should not be made available to other people inside the game in real time.

Of course, if there is a way for a person to see this data, its possible for elite groups to ask players to tell them their numbers to qualify to join their group - that is their choice. But I believe only the most hardcore players will worry about this, and the goals they have will align with the types of people that want to join their groups, and those people will have no problem being honest with them about their statistics. But I still don't think teams should be forced to micromanage each other's performance by making real time DPS meters a normal part of the gameplay loop. If a group member doesn't appear to be holding up their end of the bargain, remove them, but if the group is succeeding don't disqualify people just because they're not hitting the DPS meta number the community has established as the standard all players must meet before being invited into certain content.

Steven describes dynamic encounters as adjusting to the performance of the group. Certainly a group leader can decide that the goal is to defeat a boss in under 30 seconds, and if that isn't happening they can start asking questions and scrutinizing their group, but I frankly hope this is only going to occur for certain types of players and groups and not ALL of them.

Noaani

KapStoan wrote: »

Bad games like WoW with no teamwork required rely on DPS meters because the entire challenge of a boss encounter is how much health the boss has and how quickly you can reduce it, and because the only scaling that exists is just increasing the amount of health it has.

So, you have made the mistake many people that are not overly familiar with combat trackers make - you assumed that because some people mistakenly calm them "DPS meters", all they measure is DPS.

A combat tracker measures DPS, but it also measures heals, mitigation, blocking, CC, buffs, debuffs, and even who is successfully performing actions as required by the encounter, as well as many other things (it can include harvesting results, if you want it to).

Essentially, a combat tracker is a record of everything those present have done, including their DPS.

If the leader of a group or raid is then taking all of that information and only caring about DPS, that is because that is all the content requires him to care about.

If the encounter requires specifics in relation to CC, then the raid leader will all of a sudden care more about that than DPS.

Now, as to your suggestion, I do not think it is as good of an idea as you think it is.

First of all, top end players will have combat trackers. There is no ambiguity in that statement, because it is just a fact.

This means your suggestion isnt needed for top end players at all.

What your suggestion will do though, is make it so that people that want to be top end but aren't good enough will be asking for these numbers when forming groups. Essentially, every pick up group will require you to share this information - and no content for you if you dont.

Basically, by suggesting something you mistakenly think would assist top end players, you are really just ruining the game for people that want to play more casually.

This was one of the suggestions made years ago that led to me coming up with the solution of having Intrepid add a combat tracker to the game as a guild perk. Only guilds that value it would pick it, and since guilds are generally a collection of like minded players, everyone in the guild is likely to be on the same page.

Then you make it so that the combat tracker only works on people within that guild, and all of a sudden people wanting to play more casually simply have no way at all of getting those numbers, and that person running the pick up group cant simply use his guild combat tracker on that pick up group.

The idea is that since guilds are already a natural means for players to segment themselves in to groups with different playstyles, it is a viable way to add tools that are only really wanted by specific playstyles.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dps meters are lame, gms that have extreme focus on metas will also be the first to use exploits as well. If you get denied joining some group cause the guild wants extreme metas only, bring your guild and flag up on them lmao. Though that is also why its important to find the right guild for you, though it might take longer to have that guild to the point to do that content, mainly time constants with members.

In a game where combat trackers are normalized, you aren't going to be denied entry to a top end guild based on having an off-spec.

As someone that has spent most of my time in MMO's as a recruiter for top end guilds, all I care about is your performance. How you arrive at that performance is none of my concern. In fact, not only is a person's build not something I concern myself with, it is something I dont even ask about. The only time we care about the specific build a player is running is if the content requires us to bring specific abilities - in which case we will ask the appropriate people to have the specific abilities we need, and leave them to work out the rest.

As such, if you are denied entry, it is simply a lack of performance (or an issue of personality - which is actually more common than performance issues).

Your assertion that "gms that have extreme focus on metas will also be the first to use exploits as well" is unfounded. First, I am assuming you are incorrectly using the acronym GM to mean guild master , when literally every other MMO player ever would think of Game Master (generally an employee of the publisher, who is charged with direct in game interaction with players). People would generally refer to people that run guilds as guild leaders, or perhaps GLs, but never GM's.

However, ignoring that, in my experience, the people most likely to resort to exploits (especially known exploits) are those that are trying to catch up.

I love how you don't read post, whole paragraph on nothing, this guy loves to argue with himself.

I mean, your post doesnt make much sense.

Getting denied joining a group because the guild wants extreme meta only? Were you joining a group, or a guild? If you were joining a group, the guild is irrelevant. If you were joining a guild, why would your guild come and fight?

More importantly, if they wanted extreme metas, you should have known this well in advance, so why are you not running the build the group or guild (still not clear on that point) want you to run?

I mean, if you are joining that group or guild as pure DPS, they presumably have everything else covered. They dont want you to run a tank secondary for survivability, because they have your survivability covered. They dont want you to take Bard secondary to bring some utility, because they have a full bard bringing all the utility they need. What they want is for you, a DPS spot in the group or guild (still not sure on that point) to bring as much DPS as is possible to bring, because DPS is all they want from you.

ykk

Numbers and metrics are good and fun. Players having a way to access them allows for more depth and easier personal improvement.

People will play with the people they want to play with regardless of those metrics. It's not hard to tell when someone is a good or bad player when you don't have a bunch numbers in a box on your second monitor; they're still getting that invite or that kick.

Disallowing meters/trackers doesn't kill toxicity, it kills an avenue for reaching higher levels of play. "Here is exactly what you need to do to improve and why it is that way with numerical proof" vs a silent kick.

Also: I'd say dps meters allow more for off meta specs than not having one. Who cares if its not the meta pick if you can clearly see they pump damage? If all you have to go off of is word of mouth meta information, you'll be waay more hesitant.

Aerlana

Fight difficulty implies to request people to have high damages.

You can put tons of hard mechanics, but if people can play as safe as they want, avoid risk, the fight will remain easier than if you force them to take risk while doing mechanics.

Take any fight that has DPS check, even tough fight like ultimate in FFXIV, or Arthas 25 HM (i take some famous one)... They become easy.
Takes any fight where difficulty is only doing mechanics, don't touch the fight, leave it as it is. and just add a soft enrage (most of time, it is boss doing more and more damages as time goes on), making now a need to kill those bosses asap, while still having those insane mechanics. and now you have a real tough fight.

The more DPS is needed, the more risk people will have to take to kill the boss. The more risk, the more mistake they can do. The more close to perfection they have to be. remove this need to take big risks, you reduce the difficulty...

Sygmund

DPS meters are the pest in modern games, but i understand the will to optimize. Plese dont bring it to the game

Noaani

Sygmund wrote: »

DPS meters are the pest in modern games, but i understand the will to optimize. Plese dont bring it to the game

@Sygmund

In what way are combat trackers a pest?

What is it you expect to not see if they magically did not exist in Ashes?

Tragnar

Sygmund wrote: »

DPS meters are the pest in modern games, but i understand the will to optimize. Plese dont bring it to the game

are meters being pests in terms of cluttering UI? I agree - meters shouldn't be visible during combat - it just detracts from actual gameplay

are meters being pests in terms of too much outside preparation? If so - aren't discord servers too much as well? aren't guides in general too much of outside preparation? Why is a tool that aids with understanding of game mechanics too much, but a tool that helps with running a guild is not? How is a walkthrough on achieving something in the game ok then? How is having a wiki about the game ok then?

Aerlana

The combat tracker gathered lot of hate. Gathered all the focus for "why things became bad" or "why people are toxic the most"

It is an easy target, and more, a target from the anger... This tools show, factually, objectively that you are bad... this is why it get hate, and on FFXIV forum, people against it are mostly in green-gray parse on FFlogs. . .

To be honest, personally, i would more about forbidding any kind of build guide, and have a combat tracker.
Guides makes people worse and worse. They stop to thinking by themselves. They go to icyveins, maxroll, or anywhere they can find their builds, follow what those guides says to the letter without even the will to understand.

Sure not all are just "dumbly reading guides"... But for most people "because this is a game" they don't want to invest the time dedicated to understand, they come play leave.
Because they consider that test themselves and time dedicated to understand is wasted. But doesnt change that without any effort to understand (which is what guides allowed) people never gets better.

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