DPS Meter Megathread

Otr wrote: »

Lets say we have two cases: Meta A and Meta B (or more)
You say that only with a DPS meter I can prove that Meta A is better than Meta B.
I came with the idea to have a variation (daily, regional, server based) where the two cases are swapped
1) So without DPS meters, we would not notice the change.
2) With DPS meters we would notice it.
You said, If the effect is minimal, then people would just ignore it.
So it is better to not have DPS meters because that will bring variation to the game. Right?

Dude, we've been over this.

We're going to go line by line here.

Lets say we have two cases: Meta A and Meta B (or more)

Ok, sure...

You say that only with a DPS meter I can prove that Meta A is better than Meta B.

Correct.

I came with the idea to have a variation (daily, regional, server based) where the two cases are swapped

Now we have a problem. I haven't bothered mentioning this as yet, because I thought it honestly went without saying. However, since I am now explaining this for the THIRD TIME, going over these things that should be obvious is apparently what I now need to do.

Variation isn't going to just swap things around between multiple metas. The only way this could happen is if the game is specifically designed to only allow for those builds (ie, current WoW class design). This literally goes against what Ashes is, and so is simply not going to happen.

As such, this variation HAS TO BE some form of random variation to encounters. Literally nothing else is viable - and this specific variation is already something Intrepid has planned for at least some content in the game.

1) So without DPS meters, we would not notice the change.

Indeed, because the change would have to be very small, otherwise you wouldn't know what classes you need to bring along on group content. This is something Intrepid have said you will be able to do - while talking about the content variation system they have planned for the game.

So, these variations would need to be small.

2) With DPS meters we would notice it.

Indeed. I'll notice a 2% increase in HP to a raid boss.

You said, If the effect is minimal, then people would just ignore it.

Indeed. Players have no control over it, attempting to assert control over it would take more time than you would gain back since it will change again tomorrow, and the effects are minimal enough that you can just play through it.

Ignoring it is literally the only viable path for players to take with your developer forced variation to content suggestion (and with the system as planned by Intrepid).

So it is better to not have DPS meters because that will bring variation to the game. Right?

This line simply does not follow from the above.

You may as well have said "I want some cake, you have some cake, therefore, Teletubbies are scary".

That is the level of disconnect between the first six lines above and the last line. It simply does not follow.

Now, before we carry on dissecting this last line - which I will do in a follow up post if you answer this question - we need an answer to exactly what the variation is you are talking about in this last line.

Otr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

It is not a bad thing to strive to improve the status.
Bad is using tools where they should not be used.
It is like playing chess against your opponent, using a specialized chess engine.
Or playing a shooter using an aim assist software.
Using a DPS Meter is like being a cheater.

None of these are accurate.

Using your chess example, using a combat tracker would be more akin to analyzing your opponents strategies, favorite moves, risk tolerance etc. Like a combat tracker, these things are all basic data gathering and analysis.

All top end (and wannabe top end) chess players do the above - yet I see nothing at all about it in the rules of the game.

There are other things that would be more akin to using a specialized chess engine, macros being the starting point of that.

They are called cheaters if they use them during the competition.
Memorizing strategies before cannot be practically prevented. But would benefit to find out who is better at the game, through competion.
Using a DPS meter to analize recorded videos is possible. But can be prevented by not showing any kind of numbers on client side. Only the server would have them.

So the game would be played as intended, if is made so.
And would be better, based on this reasoning below:

Addressing this part of your post separately.

In chess competitions, players will often watch matches of potential opponents to gather the data I specifically talked about above. Most chess competitions have a move by move of every game they host, so that players can study their opponents.

While it isn't in the games rules, it absolutely is a part of chess - a part that you simply can not rise to any form of success without participating in. It is not cheating in any way, it is not considered cheating by any one - and you are probably the only person in history that has ever suggested that watching two other people playing a game of chess amounts to cheating at chess (which is literally what you said above).

Tragnar

I am sorry, but Ashes nor Chess are quantum based games - there doesn't exist any influence of observing gameplay to directly changing it

doing research, learning from others, dissecting gameplay step by step are not cheats

it honestly baffles me that mmo forum posters are the only players in existence that derive their enjoyment of their game of choice from boasting on forums that everything they do is self taught and guides are for scrubs

i cant wait for the reply from someone that doesnt know the difference between direct influence and indirect xD

Call of Duty players look at combat trackers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I9jNTT1IdA&t=140s

Dygz wrote: »

Call of Duty players look at combat trackers?

No us shooter players play by skill and feeling.

~shameless plug~

TheClimbTo1

Dygz wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

if combat trackers exist, you can prove to those people that they are wrong.

So, without combat trackers will not be possible to notice differences between various choices?

I have not seen this to be the case.
What I've seen is the leader looks at their combat tracker, basically says, "WTF? You suck because xxx..."
And then kicks the person. There is no opportunity to rebutt the leader's assessment.

Obviously, you've ever only played WoW then. Just give it a moment, Nooani will explain this to you.

LMFAO
GG

Why wouldn't have have played wow, it killed EQ2 after all. Everyone was playing WoW at a point.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why wouldn't have have played wow, it killed EQ2 after all. Everyone was playing WoW at a point.

Not everyone

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why wouldn't have have played wow, it killed EQ2 after all. Everyone was playing WoW at a point.

Not everyone

When i say everyone i mean like 90%+ of mmo gamers.

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

if combat trackers exist, you can prove to those people that they are wrong.

So, without combat trackers will not be possible to notice differences between various choices?

I have not seen this to be the case.
What I've seen is the leader looks at their combat tracker, basically says, "WTF? You suck because xxx..."
And then kicks the person. There is no opportunity to rebutt the leader's assessment.

Obviously, you've ever only played WoW then. Just give it a moment, Nooani will explain this to you.

Nah, I have a purpose for making that claim.

If someone says their experience is something that is basically limited to WoW, and I comment that they must have only played WoW, what people tend to do is list off a whole pile of what ever MMO's they have heard of (or they google "MMOthat isnt WoW", idk).

What then happens is, people read the experience this person has claimed, look at the games they claim to have played, see some games they have played, remember that said experience never happened to them in that game, and understand how much bullshit that person is full of.

Basically, it is a method to give people an opportunity to out themselves as being full of said bullshit - one that many people gladly jump on without even realizing what has happened.

I wouldn't bother doing this with Dygz because 1, I already know much his gaming history (and he knows I know), and 2, despite us disagreeing often, he is smarter than that.

LMAO
We all know who all the BS is coming from.

Otr wrote: »

In this last line I was thinking to two consequences: change and diversity in builds as opposed to having one Meta for a given class.
Assuming that instead of one meta we have more, the uncertainty will split players between all of them.

Right, so, if we assume this is what you are thinking, combat trackers are a must to arrive at this point still.

If a game has many "best builds" that are all about equal, with a combat tracker, people will happily say any of those builds are fine to run.

The thing is, without a combat tracker, people wont know those builds are all about equal. In fact, in the one game I played where combat tracker usage was low (Archeage), the games meta had basically nothing at all to do with the best builds.

The games meta was based on what people thought the best builds were.

If you are a great player and you play an average build, if you mow through others they'll start thinking your build is the meta. As such, they will use it. Then everyone will see more and more people playing this build, and just assume that is because it is the best build.

This is basically what happened in Archeage - except it all happened on Korean servers before NA/EU servers even went live. By the time our servers went live, we had a meta, people stuck with it, few people were capable of checking it, and as a result that exact meta stayed the same for more than half a decade.

Adding some variation to things (however you wish to add it) isnt going to alter the fact that without a combat tracker, players basically just guess what the meta is, expect/demand others use it, and it basically never changes.

Basically, without objective data, others will expect/demand that you use specific builds - regardless of how good they are - simply due to familiarity. If they have had success with that build in the past, at least they know the build is up to the task.

If the developers start to then extend the period of time between balance changes (any form of variation intended to alter balance) you start to get in to a situation where players are basically have to relearn the game every few months (or at least respec and regear).

This is what ESO does. Ask people like @George_Black what they think of games that just up and change things for no real reason every few months like that.

Point is, if your goal is to have a situation where players have as wide a variety of builds that others will accept as is possible, you only need two things.

The first one is a developer that gives us classes that have multiple viable builds. There is no scenario in which players are free to run any of many builds unless the developer has done this.

The second thing that is needed is for players to know these builds are all about equal. The only way they can know this for sure is with objective data, and the only valid way to get that level of objective data is a combat tracker.

Otr wrote: »

That happens only when players discover the MMO, when is fresh.

This line is untrue.

Even WoW - the single most analyzed MMO in history - there was a new and improved meta for setting up a raid that was found only a year or two ago.

After a decade in EQ2, I was still working on new builds for my main right up until I decided to leave the game.

My suggestion had the premise that players do not oppose to combat trackers but to players who tell them what to do and how to play.

Players that want to do well on content will always dictate what builds are acceptable. If you want to expand the number of builds available, players need to understand that more builds are viable.

Now, imagine a few friends playing together. If they discover the game together, the friendship helps enjoying the game. If they share what they think and discuss the builds the process of discovery works fine.
But if one of the friends chooses to watch youtube videos or goes to dedicated sites, and comes with the answers, he become a toxic friend.

This depends.

Were that group of friends happy just meandering along not being overly successful? Or did they want to improve? If they wanted to improve, and that one player went out and found the information they all need to improve, he is not the toxic player, he is the hero.

On the other hand, if the rest of the friends are happy just lazing around at their own pace but that one friend wants to see more of the game than that allows for, is he the toxic one for wanting to do better, or are the others the toxic ones for holding him back?

This is essentially the same thing I have been saying for a while, the issue is when players of differing play styles attempt to play together.

In your scenario, the problem was that one player among that group of friends wanted to play the game in a different way to the rest of the group. Even without combat trackers, that player would have wanted to play the game better, and would have found *some* information on how to play better than the group was.

Your argument here isn't with combat trackers at all. The things you are talking about will happen with or without them.

Essentially, you are trying to argue that knowledge of the game should not be shared at all.

Otr wrote: »

Knowledge should be shared for the good of the metropolis and it's vassals. That knowledge could come from military nodes.
I don't want a hero who gives the information to my enemies for free.

Interestingly, this (but on a guild level) is why there is so few guides to top end content in EQ2.

I'll say it again for you though, your issue is not with combat trackers. Literally none of the issues you have talked about have been caused by combat trackers, nor would any of them be resolved by their removal.

If you are pro-data, or pro-information, then you are pro-combat tracker - even if you do not realize it. You may have concerns with how that data or information is then shared, but that is not the purview of combat trackers.

They simply enable efficient collection of that data - nothing more.

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

I have never seen a group leader leave or be removed. I don't even know how the group leader could be removed and, since the group leader has the kick tools, seems exceedingly more likely the leader would kick, rather than leave.

While group cohesion = group with same mind... You are just blind to not see group where leader lose all leadership. It happens often... I saw it in casual guilds that goes in PvE progress but with not big goals (just go "as far as we can" ) everytime, some people in the guild will get too far into the "pushing" mindset. And they will become quite harsh to people that are deadweight (and there isn't needed a combat tracker to know who.)
The group cohesion is falling at this point, because the group is now 2 differnet mindset that can't exist together
At this point, a guild has 2 future :
1) The guild evolve, change, the progress become a thing, The guildmate there just "to chill" often can stay but are not anymore in the raids. Or they leave.
2) Most guild members prefer to chill and the players who wants progress leaves due to frustration.

In both case, the guildmaster in the "minority side" has 2 solutions : admit being out of touch, give the lead. (in first case, he can keep it while giving enough tools for the officers in "progress" mindset to do organize the raids... but it often end with the guildmaster title being given)
Or... stay a tyrant. . .

The tyrant has the button sure... Who cares. People will rebuild a guild, or all leave to join the guild of some friends

"Yeah but you speak about guild not group" But it is mostly the same no ?
Ashes of Creation is a lot about social interaction, and raid 40 people will need some logistic bind to guilds.

Buuuut ok, lets spoke about some PU group for some content not so hard.
Just let see FFXIV and primal farm.
Yes, the kick comes from the partyleader, sure... And it rarely needs debate because people joined this farm party because the title/description defined if it was chill or "hardcore" so kicking a party member out of place seems normal and without need to debate (which would be lost of time in both situation...)
What if the party leader decide to kick and people disagree or find it excessiv : or people shut up (so in fact it is not a so big problem for them) or... they protest and, because most of time the pride make partylead to stick its way, they all leave... and reform the party.

The kick is not just "right-click => kick" it can also be "lets do a party but not with him"

Otr wrote: »

It is like playing chess against your opponent using a specialized chess engine.
Or playing a shooter using an aim assist software.
Using a DPS Meter is like being a cheater.

Macro that generates autorotation from one click are similar to aim assist
DPS meter / combat tracker are just... metric.

all those 3 things (combat tracker, aim assist or macro) can be developped by another dude, and you just set up his files on your computer then enjoy.
But combat tracker won't make you good. while macro will do the perfect cycle for your skills and the aim assist will allow you to do headshot while aiming 3 meters away...
Combat tracker it is just result from various test, but you still have to do test... SO you have to find out what test you have to do.

You could try 100 differents ways to DPS the dummy in front of you, define the best of the 100, be happy, and still suck :
-maybe you didnt find out the real best way yet.
-ok, you have the dummy best cycle, but you have a real static class and fights will force you to move (or other similar problem between theory and reality)

You still have to play well, having the answer on "how to play" does not me "you know how to play" and even less "you are good"

Aimbot allows you to have good stats even when playing with your feets. Combat tracker will just show you that you are still playing with your feet, and allow you how to use your hands instead... It will remains to you to improve.

Otr wrote: »

Would be like a picture with low resolution.
You would not be able to tell what happens between 99% and 76% or between 74% and 51%, beside a general direction.

You can... Harder without combat tracker, but you can.
And harder you do this work, the more you tear apart your community. because some will do... (Or they will just get bored of a boring game and leave)
But harder it is to work its own efficiency, the more difference there will be between people trying to get it and the others that in the end, play with pure "i feel this is better"

GethOverlord wrote: »

I am not going to even argue this point because that has been stated to be straight up against the ToS and should be a bannable offence. And quite frankly the number of people in this thread alone that have mentioned that they will be using them regardless disgusts me. But yeah, people will use them. Don't group with them.

On FFXIV combat tracker are against TOS clearly
https://www.fflogs.com/
This site is just lots of data uploaded from ... combat trackers
While some debate around parsers on FFXIV forum some people discovered that they have statistics of them on this site without even knowing it before...

They were in party where one or more people had combat tracker running, and those people did upload the datas to the site... And they could only discovered it because on the forum debate the site was linked, explained, they roamed it, typed their character name, and discovered this...

People will use combat tracker,
Any unknown people you will party with will maybe use it... maybe not. And you will never know about it.

Now ask yourself why the only way to get banned from FFXIV for using parsers is ONLY if you kick a dude from your party while SAYING you kick him for bad DPS (if you kick him but don't say why, you won't have any problem)?
Why some video with kills from top world there are proof they have modified ACT to also do the calls during the fights and those same party are not banned ?

Simply : Yoshida doesn't want to kill the PvE of his game. While those people, pushing always higher their own performance are a really, cool and shiny show for lot of people... who could think to do those really hard high end content. so... more customers.

Are you talking about group leadership or guild leadership?

It doesn't matter if the only way to get banned from FFXIV for using parsers is ONLY if you kick a dude while SAYING you kick him for bad DPS.
What matters is that the devs don't provide players with DPS meters.

I am so glad Steven is saying no to DPS meters, AoC always gives me more hope for the mmo genre.