How Strong is the Secondary Archetype?

So I've read the wiki, and read about the augments. But I'm still wondering, how much does the secondary archetype affect our build?
For example, if my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?
How far can you bend your primary archetype? If your primary is Tank, will you be shoehorned into playing a supportive/tanky role? Or can you choose a secondary that will allow you to deal more damage and make your role more of a heavy damage dealer?
Disregarding items/enchants

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

mcstackerson

Dygz wrote: »

Um. I dunno how that can be unclear.
Elemental School is one School. With several types of Elemental augments in that group - Fire, Lightning, Ice...
Teleportation School is one School. With several types of Teleport augments in that group.
The player picks the augments they wish to use. From the School they wish to use.
The Elemental School is not applied to an Active Skill. An augment is applied to the Active Skill.

Yea, i think we(at least me) might have thinking it wrong because i believe we were thinking that each school gave 1 augment. You are probably thinking about it correct in that each school will provide multiple augments.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

Um. I dunno how that can be unclear.
Elemental School is one School. With several types of Elemental augments in that group - Fire, Lightning, Ice...
Teleportation School is one School. With several types of Teleport augments in that group.
The player picks the augments they wish to use. From the School they wish to use.
The Elemental School is not applied to an Active Skill. An augment is applied to the Active Skill.

Yes I'm asking for the quote that implies exactly this because it would genuinely put my mind at ease quite a bit, and in my trawling, I have missed it.

Vaknar recently answered a Q&A question with:

"The Mage archetype offers four elemental schools as augments to a character's primary skills."

And explained that at this stage in development, further clarification is not available (I believe in a different thread).

I just really want to feel confident here, so please please provide me with anything I've missed. I often get caught in the trap of thinking 'this is obviously the way it is meant' and have to roll it back, as you know. I'd love to not have to be 'worrying' about Mage Augments or 'Four Elemental Schools' or whatever.

Dygz

Yes. Each Primary Archetype has 4 Schools. A School is a group of augments.
I'll try to grab a few Steven quotes and post them before tomorrow morning.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

Yes. Each Primary Archetype has 4 Schools. A School is a group of augments.
I'll try to grab a few Steven quotes and post them before tomorrow morning.

Thank you very much! I'll look forward to it. Sorry for taking up your time with it, but I'm pretty sure that my preconceptions/worries are causing me to miss them/gloss over them due to already having an incorrectly primed interpretation.

Dygz

Time is mostly fine... I have three dance classes tonight right after work - else I would get thm to you more quickly.

SirChancelot

Azherae wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Somewhat wild cards, but not complete wild cards.
A Fire augment will always be a Fire augment, rather than randomly becoming an Ice augment when placed on a different Active Skill.

But, my point was...
Trickster would be able to use the same augments from the "Shadow" School as Shadowmancer.
Shadowmancer would be able to use the same augments from the "Bleed" School as Shadowblade.
And, we can expect Shadowblades to be summoning blades made from Shadows.

In theme yes it will still be a fire themed effect.
But it could add a burst of fire DMG, add a burn DoT, place a zone of fire on the ground, add a fire shield with a 'thorns' effect... Yes it's all still fire, it is the same school/augment, but it's a wild card as to what they can do with it for every class or even any ability.
So how that augment effects one archetype may not be the same for every archetype. Makes them pretty wild card to me.

Y'all think differently to me, I'm not even willing to assume this.

I'm here worrying about:

Devs: "Well this skill doesn't have anything Fire can do to enhance it so if you use the Elemental school for this specific skill you will automatically get a Lightning Augment because we think that would make the most sense for the skill".

"But... I'm a Fire Juggler Bard..."

"No, you're a Bard, that's your Primary Archetype, you CHOOSE to juggle fire, and you just CHOOSE not to take Elemental on this skill, it's all about choices mattering."

";_;"

Do we have a quote or reason to be certain that you 'could choose Fire as an elemental augment on every skill and actually know you will get Fire'?

I dunno
I've been unsure over it
Whether its spacial and elemental and then 2 more schools.
Or if its spacial and elemental as in fire, ice, and lightning are all four schools.

I don't care either way, but it hasn't been super clear to me.

Dygz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AeuqaELjFg&t=3904s
There's going to be four schools of augmentation for each archetype. One of the schools for the mage is the teleport school. You can take that teleport augment, apply it to your charge skill: now instead of charging x distance over time you're going to immediately teleport to the target dealing x damage and a condition modifier. If you were to apply the elemental school to your class ability you would then instead you would charge x distance; upon reaching target you would set the target ablaze if it's fire or you would electrocute them and deal with damage over time.
---Steven

This indicates that the player has the choice to use a Fire augment on Charge or a Lightning augment on Charge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnoHtzaQeMs&t=3071s
When you pick the Cleric as a Secondary class... two of the augment (Schools) are Life and Death. Choosing Life on certain skills will he the ability to both potentially impct others to a degree and give them life-giving benefits to a degree, through your Skills, and also provide healing benefits for yourself through your skills as well.
So, pretty much any class that is going to choose Cleric as a Secondary class will have the ability to pick from those augments to influene their skills to affect the life of others and yourself.
---Steven

This indicates that the Life School has several augments - some that heal others and some that heal yourself - and the player picks the augment that provides which of those effects they want.
That doesn't sound like you "apply the Life School" to an Active Skill and the devs determine what kind of Life affect occurs based on the Active Skill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNRD57wHtAE&t=4394s
"The Mage augment is the same grouping (School), but the way it affects the Active Skill, you only receive Active Skills from your Primary Archetype, and then it gets augmented by your secondary choice."
---Steven

"And those augments are different for each class. A Mage affects a warrior (Fighter) different than a Mage affects a Cleric."
---Jeffrey

"Right. The augment School is (the same, but) it will yield a different effect because the base Active Skill is different, but the parent augment is the same."
---Steven

A Fire augment on Hallowed Ground will function differently than a Fire augment on Charge.
But, both will still deal Fire damage.

Ironhope

What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game.

In regards to how big of a difference the secondary archetype makes, we just don't know.

Every single quote we got is highly interpretable (while respecting the quotes to the letter you could design either a secondary archetype that brings huge differences or that brings no real ones, but rather cosmetic changes).

We will only really know when Alpha 2 hits (which could take even more than a year from now).

The difference the secondary archetype brings could be as massive as being the equivalent or near-equivalent of a wow spec (while not changing your role, such as making you a tank from a support or something like that) or simply being a cosmetic pack combined with some minor buffs/quality of life improvements.

Personally I hope they will take some risks and go for the more complex path, because if they don't, they will disappoint a lot of people.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AeuqaELjFg&t=3904s
There's going to be four schools of augmentation for each archetype. One of the schools for the mage is the teleport school. You can take that teleport augment, apply it to your charge skill: now instead of charging x distance over time you're going to immediately teleport to the target dealing x damage and a condition modifier. If you were to apply the elemental school to your class ability you would then instead you would charge x distance; upon reaching target you would set the target ablaze if it's fire or you would electrocute them and deal with damage over time.
---Steven

This indicates that the player has the choice to use a Fire augment on Charge or a Lightning augment on Charge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnoHtzaQeMs&t=3071s
When you pick the Cleric as a Secondary class... two of the augment (Schools) are Life and Death. Choosing Life on certain skills will he the ability to both potentially impct others to a degree and give them life-giving benefits to a degree, through your Skills, and also provide healing benefits for yourself through your skills as well.
So, pretty much any class that is going to choose Cleric as a Secondary class will have the ability to pick from those augments to influene their skills to affect the life of others and yourself.
---Steven

This indicates that the Life School has several augments - some that heal others and some that heal yourself - and the player picks the augment that provides which of those effects they want.
That doesn't sound like you "apply the Life School" to an Active Skill and the devs determine what kind of Life affect occurs based on the Active Skill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNRD57wHtAE&t=4394s
"The Mage augment is the same grouping (School), but the way it affects the Active Skill, you only receive Active Skills from your Primary Archetype, and then it gets augmented by your secondary choice."
---Steven

"And those augments are different for each class. A Mage affects a warrior (Fighter) different than a Mage affects a Cleric."
---Jeffrey

"Right. The augment School is (the same, but) it will yield a different effect because the base Active Skill is different, but the parent augment is the same."
---Steven

A Fire augment on Hallowed Ground will function differently than a Fire augment on Charge.
But, both will still deal Fire damage.

Thank you, Dygz.

Given those, presented in that specific order, I'm back to feeling mostly comfortable with this system.

I believe my problem comes with the way the wiki structures the information, which gives the opposite conclusion using some of the same quotes.

On the Elements section of the Mage page, we get all this as a preface to the same quote, as Vaknar provided.

"Mages will offer four Elemental schools of augmentation, such as Teleportation, Fire, Frost and Lightning (electrical)."

Which seemed to group Teleportation (for example, could be perceived as Planar?) as an Elemental school, and of course the 'offending line' itself...

"The Mage archetype offers four elemental schools as augments to a character's primary skills."

So it looks like one page is just not updated as much as the other, but through your efforts I no longer am 'worried that there are three Elemental schools'.

SirChancelot

Ironhope wrote: »

What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game.

Booooo
BooooOOOooo

Flexible roles sliders 2023!

Dygz

Ironhope wrote: »

What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game.

I mean... I think it might feel better to say:
If you chose a Rogue as your Primary Archetype, you will be a Rogue for the rest of the game.

You can choose to be a Shadowblade and change to something other than being a Rogue later in the game.
Same for x/Tanks.

Ironhope

Dygz wrote: »

If you chose a Rogue as your Primary Archetype, you will be a Rogue for the rest of the game.
.

Rogue isn't a role.

Dps is the role.

Dygz wrote: »

You can choose to be a Shadowblade and change to something other than being a Rogue later in the game.
Same for x/Tanks. .

I mean, you will still be just a dps, a harder to kill dps (something I hope they do in a creative way, not via boring state alterations), but still a dps.

Ironhope

SirChancelot wrote: »

Booooo
BooooOOOooo

Flexible roles sliders 2023!

I do have to say I wish the class system in ashes was a a bit different....

As someone wanting to go for the crusader fantasy (holy knight dps), I find leveling as a fighter to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

As someone wanting to go for the crusader fantasy (holy knight dps), I find leveling as a fighter to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

I'm just curious here. As I see "crusaders" (especially holy knights), you'd either need a tank/cleric or a cleric/tank combination rather than a fighter/x one. I could maaaybe see fighter/cleric pairing, but still, out of those 3 choices the fighter seems like the best way to level up a character, mainly because he's a dps (and you said you want a dps class), while both tank and cleric would have to be pretty much supports.

So considering that, why do you find that fighter doesn't fit your preference?

Dygz

Ironhope wrote: »

Rogue isn't a role.
Dps is the role.

LMFAO
Rogue is a role. Especially in an RPG that is balanced around an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.
What you mean is that Rogue is not the Trinity role. DPS is the Trinity role.
RPGs have variety of roles besides just the Trinity roles.

Dygz wrote: »

I mean, you will still be just a dps, a harder to kill dps (something I hope they do in a creative way, not via boring state alterations), but still a dps.

LMAO
No.
In an 8-person group, Tank/x is designed to be the main tank.
That does not mean that a Rogue/Tank cannot be the main tank in a group that does not have a Tank/x.
Also, a Tank/Cleric could be the main healer in a group that does not have a Cleric/x.
There could also be a Rogue/Cleric in that group acting as a healer.
There could also be a Fighter/Cleric in that group acting as a healer.
Especially true in groups with less than 8 people.

Even in 8-person group
A Rogue/Tank can do some tanking as well as DPS, so is not "just" DPS.
A Rogue/Cleric can do some healing as well as DPS, so is not "just" DPS.
A Rogue/x in an 8-person group will primarily be DPS. And can also be something else secondarily.

And, that still means that an x/Rogue can change their secondary Trinity role.
And an x/Tank can change their secondary Trinity role.
An x/Tank is "a Tank". And does not have to be a (secondary) Trinity role tank for the rest of the game.
Also, if there is a Master Gatherer Tank/Cleric tagging along with an 8-person group that has a Knight who will be main tank - that Paladin might choose to do more healing than tanking.

Ironhope

Dygz wrote: »

What you mean is that Rogue is not the Trinity role. DPS is the Trinity role.

I believed it was obvious that I meant that Rogue is not a Trinity role, but then, when the one you're talking to is insincere and hellbent on generally being agressive for no reason, there's no amount of precision in speech or gesture to satisfy said person.

Dygz wrote: »

That does not mean that a Rogue/Tank cannot be the main tank in a group that does not have a Tank/x.

Sure, under the right circumstances, anything can be a tank, a rogue/rogue, a cleric/cleric, whatever.
That's clearly not the sense of what I meant.

A rogue/x will (most likely, based on what we know so far) still be a DPS as far as the trinity role system is concerned.

That was the topic and that's what I said.

Dygz wrote: »

And, that still means that an x/Rogue can change their secondary Trinity role.

''can change their secondary trinity role''

who said anything about secondary trinity roles? That's an offtopic discussion you started randomly on your own.

I said they can't change their trinity role from dps to tank or healer, which is the case

Ironhope

Just curious NiKr, do you think I'm too pretentious or want a fantasy which is too rare?

Is the dps, melee, holy themed fantasy that nieche?

NiKr wrote: »

I'm just curious here. As I see "crusaders" (especially holy knights), you'd either need a tank/cleric or a cleric/tank combination rather than a fighter/x one.

Not if you want the Retribution Paladin Crusader.
I mean, if you google Crusader now too, most images will be with a guy with a big sword, a dps focused combatant.

For that the only thing you can do is pick a fighter and then go cleric as secondary archetype.

So I, someone focusing on the holy fantasy, will have to play a fighter (a complete different fantasy) for a large part of the game to get to something relatively close to what I want.

I am still hopeful that a cleric/fighter with the right gear, talents and tattoos will nonetheless be capable of being that retribution paladin type fantasy... but yeah, that's probably not going to be the case.

NiKr wrote: »

I could maaaybe see fighter/cleric pairing, but still, out of those 3 choices the fighter seems like the best way to level up a character, mainly because he's a dps (and you said you want a dps class), while both tank and cleric would have to be pretty much supports..

I actually expect cleric/tank/bard to level faster because

A) they will have 0 problems finding dungeon groups for leveling

this is going to be a challenging, classic-mmo-rpg experience so you will have a lot of people teaming up with friends in the open world to quest. Since AOC is clearly a pvp focused game, people will be gratly encouraged to do this as a means of defending themselves against ganking.

I mean, for all we know, questing is the best way of leveling, but I personally don't expect it.

Not that I mind leveling slowly, I actually enjoy it, assuming the story, gameplay and ambiance of the game in general is good.

NiKr wrote: »

So considering that, why do you find that fighter doesn't fit your preference?

It's a completely different fantasy, at least until you merge it with a cleric to make a highsword (dps holy themed melee, which is probably the closest thing to the fantasy I want).

It's like going to a restaurant while craving for some pizza only to find out you will have to go through two courses of soups to get to the pizza you want.

Dygz

Ironhope wrote: »

I believed it was obvious that I meant that Rogue is not a Trinity role, but then, when the one you're talking to is insincere and hellbent on generally being agressive for no reason, there's no amount of precision in speech or gesture to satisfy said person.

I don't know why you think anything I said was a aggressive.
If I wanted to be aggresive, I would have written something like, "You are stupid as fuck. I don't know why you're even wasting our time with that shit."

What I replied to was your comment: "What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game."
Archetype is also a type of role. So, no... choosing "a tank" is not clear whether you mean Archetype role or Trinity role.
Which is why I replied that it might be better to use Rogue... if you are referring to Archetype.
Since you meant Trinity role... it would have been clearer to use choosing "a dps" as your example.

And all of that is OK.
We aren't always as clear as we might...hope...to be.
We can add more clarity as people respond to what we wrote...if something was misunderstood.

My laughing at your assertion that a Rogue is not a role is not aggressive.
It's just laughing at the absurdity of the suggestion that Rogue is not a role in an RPG.

Ironhope wrote: »

Sure, under the right circumstances, anything can be a tank, a rogue/rogue, a cleric/cleric, whatever.
That's clearly not the sense of what I meant.

LMAO
I didn't suggest that anything can have the Trinity role of tank.
An x/Tank is literally a type of tank. Any x/Tank has a secondary Trinity role of tank.
An x/Rogue has a secondary Trinity role of dps.
An x/Cleric has a secondary Trinity role of healer/support.

Ironhope wrote: »

A rogue/x will (most likely, based on what we know so far) still be a DPS as far as the trinity role system is concerned.

That was the topic and that's what I said.

That's not what you actually said. That may be what you meant.
But it's still missing the key point that a Rogue/x can have more than one Trinity role.
A Rogue/x is primarily a DPS and can secondarily be a Trinity role of tank or healer/support. And, that secondary Trinity role can change throughout the life of the game.

Ironhope wrote: »

who said anything about secondary trinity roles? That's an offtopic discussion you started randomly on your own.

I said they can't change their trinity role from dps to tank or healer, which is the case

I said something about secondary Trinity roles -I said it- because it's important for people to understand that each class has a primary Trinity role and a secondary Trinity role.
So it is not the case that we are stuck with just one Trinity role for the rest of the game when we choose a primary Trinity role.
The case is that you are stuck with the Primary Archetype once you choose your Primary Acrhetype. Your Trinity role -especially your secondary Trinity role- has flexibility based on your choice of Secondary Archetype.
Which is the entire point of having Secondary Archetypes.
So... no. What I said about secondary roles is not off-topic.

The OP asks, "If my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?"
The answer to that is - Yes. There will be a Rogue augment School that includes Bleed augments.

The OP asks, "If your primary is Tank, will you be shoehorned into playing a supportive/tanky role? Or can you choose a secondary that will allow you to deal more damage and make your role more of a heavy damage dealer?"
The answer to that is - Choosing Rogue as a Secondary Archetype will provide access to the secondary Trinity role of DPS and will allow you to add more burst DPS to your Tank Active Skills. Your primary Trinity role will still be tank, but your secondary Trinity role will allow you to secondarily be a heavy damage dealer by adding Rogue augments to your Tank Active Skills.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

Just curious NiKr, do you think I'm too pretentious or want a fantasy which is too rare?

Is the dps, melee, holy themed fantasy that nieche?

I wouldn't know either way, cause I don't care about that specific combination, nor do I really care for pure RP.

Ironhope wrote: »

It's a completely different fantasy, at least until you merge it with a cleric to make a highsword (dps holy themed melee, which is probably the closest thing to the fantasy I want).

Ah, so your issue is just with the first 25 lvls. Got it.

Ironhope

Dygz wrote: »

I don't know why you think anything I said was a aggressive.

I don't know where you're from and with who you hang on but let's be real ''LMFAO, LMAO
No.'' is rude as hell.

Dygz wrote: »

If I wanted to be aggresive, I would have written something like, "You are stupid as fuck. I don't know why you're even wasting our time with that shit."

Agression =/= savagery, although they do often work hand in hand.

Dygz wrote: »

My laughing at your assertion that a Rogue is not a role is not aggressive.

Ridiculing somebody is rude and rudeness is a form of verbal agression.
I mean, we're on a forum, what other kind of agression could we have talked about?

Either way, as the AOC wiki says, yes Rogue is not a role (trinity role = what I was obviously talking about)

Dygz wrote: »

LMAO
I didn't suggest that anything can have the Trinity role of tank.
An x/Tank is literally a type of tank.

Dygz wrote: »

But it's still missing the key point that a Rogue/x can have more than one Trinity role.

Sure, in the same sense a cleric/cleric with the right gear combination, buffs, etc can be a type of tank in certain circumstances.

But neither the cleric/cleric under the right cirumstances nor the x/tank under the right circumstances have a tank role in the trinity system.

Sure, ''secondary roles'' are a different matter. We can agree on that I think based on how you mentioned it. But that was off-topic in relationship to what I said.

Child Item