DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

These post wreak of, I don't care what the developer thinks I'm going to do it anyway and force this on other people so they have to do it. Then i can't get banned once I get enough people to do it.

All while saying meters aren't toxic lol?

It isnt the meter that is toxic here.

It is the developer that decided to make a staple of the genre frowned upon.

If you are reading this thread and saying its proof trackers are toxic, then you believe the player booting someone out of a group knowing they can easily replace them is also the fault of trackers.

Honest question - if Steven had have said "trackers are fine, we will even build a guild based tracker in to the game client", do you think this thread would have even made it past 10 pages?

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Which is exactly my point. If they go down the path of "peak pve is open world" then, just as you implied, I can't see how they'll make it super complex w/o making it pretty much impossible. And if they go down the path of semi or full instance - then it kinda goes against the "open world" promise and would not even be repeatable if they go with full instance.

The only viable path I see for them is to add in instanced encounters that are considered the hardest in the game, but also having open world bosses that are technically easier, involve PvP (turn corruption off), and drop the best loot.

Some people mistakenly claim that raiders would complain if the best loot isnt from the hardest encounters, but this isnt true as encounter rarity has been a factor along side difficulty for decades.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

These post wreak of, I don't care what the developer thinks I'm going to do it anyway and force this on other people so they have to do it. Then i can't get banned once I get enough people to do it.

All while saying meters aren't toxic lol?

It isnt the meter that is toxic here.

It is the developer that decided to make a staple of the genre frowned upon.

If you are reading this thread and saying its proof trackers are toxic, then you believe the player booting someone out of a group knowing they can easily replace them is also the fault of trackers.

Honest question - if Steven had have said "trackers are fine, we will even build a guild based tracker in to the game client", do you think this thread would have even made it past 10 pages?

You are actually trying to say the developers are toxic because you are bad at their correct choice lol. The only reason this thread has 100+ pages is because you respond and try to fight everyone and try to change the mind of every single poster wanting to force your way on the game that was denied to be supported.

I could jump in any thread and reply to every poster and force it to get up to a insane amount of pages, in fact we both have already done that in other threads. Its not even a valid point to bring up when you were the one that has been fueling this thread so it stays at the top, over it being organic and the voice of unique people with constant discussion.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

I could jump in any thread and reply to every poster and force it to get up to a insane amount of pages, in fact we both have already done that in other threads. Its not even a valid point to bring up when you were the one that has been fueling this thread so it stays at the top, over it being organic and the voice of unique people with constant discussion.

Would you actually like or want that?

Unique people with constant discussion? Just say the word.

(I'm really just calling you out again on your flawed logic, but there's a chance!)

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

These post wreak of, I don't care what the developer thinks I'm going to do it anyway and force this on other people so they have to do it. Then i can't get banned once I get enough people to do it.

All while saying meters aren't toxic lol?

It isnt the meter that is toxic here.

It is the developer that decided to make a staple of the genre frowned upon.

If you are reading this thread and saying its proof trackers are toxic, then you believe the player booting someone out of a group knowing they can easily replace them is also the fault of trackers.

Honest question - if Steven had have said "trackers are fine, we will even build a guild based tracker in to the game client", do you think this thread would have even made it past 10 pages?

You are actually trying to say the developers are toxic because you are bad at their correct choice lol.

More accurately, I am pointing out how foolish it is to look at one situation, point to one aspect of it and say that is the thing causing the toxicity.

If any component can be removed or altered from a situation and it ceases to be toxic, then that component can be considered the source of the toxicity.

In this specific case, it can then be said that Steven's position on this matter is the cause of toxicity. In this case, I know that if I were not taking up this specific mantle, someone else would, so taking me out of this situation would probably result in an increase in toxicity (I know a few of the people that may have stepped in).

I mean, are you suggesting a developer CAN'T cause toxicity in their own community?

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I could jump in any thread and reply to every poster and force it to get up to a insane amount of pages, in fact we both have already done that in other threads. Its not even a valid point to bring up when you were the one that has been fueling this thread so it stays at the top, over it being organic and the voice of unique people with constant discussion.

Would you actually like or want that?

Unique people with constant discussion? Just say the word.

(I'm really just calling you out again on your flawed logic, but there's a chance!)

You are missing the point.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I could jump in any thread and reply to every poster and force it to get up to a insane amount of pages, in fact we both have already done that in other threads. Its not even a valid point to bring up when you were the one that has been fueling this thread so it stays at the top, over it being organic and the voice of unique people with constant discussion.

Would you actually like or want that?

Unique people with constant discussion? Just say the word.

(I'm really just calling you out again on your flawed logic, but there's a chance!)

You are missing the point.

I'm parrying your leap.

You didn't make a point, you did the same thing you always do, so I did the same thing I always do in response.

If you prefer, I can ask someone else to take over 'calling out your nonsense' for me, for a change of pace. I know you can't easily stop doing that thing, so I won't request that.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

These post wreak of, I don't care what the developer thinks I'm going to do it anyway and force this on other people so they have to do it. Then i can't get banned once I get enough people to do it.

All while saying meters aren't toxic lol?

It isnt the meter that is toxic here.

It is the developer that decided to make a staple of the genre frowned upon.

If you are reading this thread and saying its proof trackers are toxic, then you believe the player booting someone out of a group knowing they can easily replace them is also the fault of trackers.

Honest question - if Steven had have said "trackers are fine, we will even build a guild based tracker in to the game client", do you think this thread would have even made it past 10 pages?

You are actually trying to say the developers are toxic because you are bad at their correct choice lol.

More accurately, I am pointing out how foolish it is to look at one situation, point to one aspect of it and say that is the thing causing the toxicity.

If any component can be removed or altered from a situation and it ceases to be toxic, then that component can be considered the source of the toxicity.

In this specific case, it can then be said that Steven's position on this matter is the cause of toxicity. In this case, I know that if I were not taking up this specific mantle, someone else would, so taking me out of this situation would probably result in an increase in toxicity (I know a few of the people that may have stepped in).

I mean, are you suggesting a developer CAN'T cause toxicity in their own community?

This take is really bad, its full of I am the victim the developer is the toxic one, even as you say you will ignore TOS and use that garbage anyway.

Developer isn't toxic, you are the one that is being toxic. Its one thing to support meters its another trying to demonize the developer in order to try to get your way even as you sit in the minority. It is there game they are developing as well as the money going into the game to make this, they are the ones that set the rules. If you don't like it, speak with your wallet, as will other people supporting the game.

You are assuming someone will rely every page multiple times for over 100 pages, that isn't fact nor has it been shown to be done by anyone else. Someone saying you are doing this for them, is not indicative of them willing to have done what you do nor go about it in the way you have done. You can't make things up in your mind and think it is true.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Developer isn't toxic, you are the one that is being toxic.

Actually, barring a very few posts, I am being overly courteous, and those few posts where I am not are on purpose.

If we are being honest though, the most toxic behavior here has been those that label others as cheaters - despite there being absolutely no grounds for that label.

That is pretty damn close to the definition of toxic behavior.

You can't make things up in your mind and think it is true.

That's your thing, not mine.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes is a themebox with many path progressions. I expect the majority of Ashes players won't care much about the numbers associated with top-end content.

But it is exactly because of Ashes being a themebox and not a themepark that there's a higher chance of more people being influenced by top end players. All of ff14 is cooperative, so the overall attitude towards content and players is positive and kind (with the sprout icon being the greatest example). But quite a huge chunk of Ashes will be competitive. Especially when it comes to bosses and their loot, because they'll be open world. I know that you don't care about the loot part of the encounter, but a ton of people will be fighting over being the ones to beat the dragon first and then do their best to keep being the only ones who kill that same dragon on his future spawns.

And a big part of the pvx spectrum will be looking at such events with huge interest. And if they hear from the pioneers of farming that these events turn out to be dull and boring (for whichever reason), I'd assume this would cast a pretty dark shade on the entire experience. Especially if those non-pioneers can't even get a chance to experience the event for themselves (which will most likely be the case).

Again, I hope this is not the case, but I can definitely see how it could go down exactly like this.

Competitive because we are building and defending our homes... which can be destroyed.
So... we will be invested in the story of each server on both the cooperative/competitive PvE sides and the cooperative/competitive PvP sides.
Since we have bosses like the Winter Dragon which can bring a Winter that devestates the Region until it is defeated, bosses will be both cooperative as well as competitive.

Events are Events. They occur in the open world. They aren't something that only top-end players experience first and then no one else gets to experience. Everyone can participate in Monster Coin Events, for sure.
I'm not at all concerned about the sheep who leave because someone else told them content is boring.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

You defeat the Winter Dragon to end the perpetual Winter; not because you need to be in the top 1% of PvE.

Dygz wrote: »

Events are Events. They aren't something that only top-end players experience first and then no one else gets to experience.

I'm wondering- quite honestly - if you understand the connection between these two statements.

I'll let you know what it is, just in case.

That Winter Dragon that you talk about, that is an even encounter. As such, top end players will not have any inherent interest in it. You wouldn't kill that thinking you need to kill it in order to be in the top what ever percent, because honestly, anyone logged on at the time will be able to take part in killing it.

It is an event encounter, not a world boss, nor a raid encounter. If there are no guild assets being affected by the dragon, a top end guild is unlikely to even care about an event like that - we are quite happy leaving it to you guys.

For the most part, event encounters are not at all what we are talking about. They will basically just be big HP bags with little else to them (they are designed to be killed by the 50%, they aren't hard).

Dygz

Um. Top 1% is relative.
FFXIV doesn't support DPS Meters and... they have a top 1%, so... it's not really a problem.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Um. Top 1% is relative.

Well, unless by 1% you mean top 50%, the point stands.

If you do mean top 50%, you should probably endeavor to be more accurate.

The point is, people that are killing raid encounters will have no inherent desire to participate in world events unless they are directly impacted (and even then, only if there is a chance the event wont be defeated soon). We won't participate for the fun of the encounter, or to experience something new, or for any potential rewards.

As for FFXIV, literally every player in the top 10% (top 25% would be my guess, as well as many others trying to get better) either is using or has used a combat tracker. Developer support for combat trackers is not really needed.

I mean, if FFXIV is the way you want combat trackers in Ashes to go, good news!

Dygz

Everyone is directly affected by world Events.
You keep saying "we". It's really just you.

You are the one who keeps saying that you don't want the Ashes position on DPS Meters to be the same as FFXIV's.

Dolyem

Jumping in again to say I still dont want DPS meters. I may have said this months ago but while a meta will always be eventually formed, it is healthy for a game to delay the amount of time it takes to find said metas. So making it more difficult to divulge the meta for the game will make it take more time to get to that point, allowing for the game to have a much more natural feel of progression and less of an initial bar to entry for groups because there wont be any established metas required to build as for the first couple of months to a year. Maybe 1 to 2 years after the games release they can offer a game supported dps meter, but I would argue for those meters to be removed upon release of new content, and then repeat the process again. But, I still would prefer not ever having them and having players have to take their time and experiment with builds themselves, or wait for others to share their findings.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Everyone is directly affected by world Events.

Sure, affected by.

Thing is, the boss that needs to be killed to end those events isn't going to be hard. If it is hard, you won't be involved in killing it - nor will most players. There is no need at all for top end players to be present. If people in a top end guild have something planned, you can guarantee that they will not put a world event above it. The only way any top end player will be involved in an event boss kill is if they have nothing else to do.

As to FFXIV - I don't care if that is how trackers end up in Ashes. I will have the same freedom to use a tracker if that is the case as I have in basically any other game.

If you are happy with FFXIV level tracker use, then I have to ask why you are against trackers at all, as you would need to be ambivalent at best towards trackers to be ok with that kind of implied tracker approval.

Noaani

Dolyem wrote: »

it is healthy for a game to delay the amount of time it takes to find said metas.

I've yet to see an explanation as to why people would believe this that actually makes sense.

If we assume Intrepid are good enough developers to have class design that doesn't have one build better than all others at all progression points in the game (most games have different build being better based on available gear, and based on target enemy), then the slower the games meta is uncovered, the more likely it is that players will fall in to the mono-build per class of many other games.

I mean, to me, saying that developing the meta slowly will mean the game doesn't fall in to that mono-build scenario is akin to saying you don't think Intrepid can design classes well enough.

Now sure, this may well end up being the case - but at least for now, lets give them the benefit of the doubt. If they have that benefit of the doubt, then we want the games meta to be uncovered quickly.

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

The FFXIV devs do not support Guilds using trackers.

They just congratule the top guilds for their ultimate guild... I invite you to look at this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH0BqyxPwHk
Sfia was never banned for this.
They just deliberately feint to ignore https://www.fflogs.com/
https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/gilgamesh/sfia pirion ... this is all time sfia or one of his teammate used ACT and then uploaded the data on fflogs... still no ban after all those and some proof

Devs in FFXIV factually don't care about people using ACT. "but yoshida says" Yoshida is a liers... not his first, not his last. "but and people banned" no one on the game was banned for using a parser, literally no one. people were banned for saying "you have a dps far too low, bye" if you kick the dude for low DPS but without saying why you kick him you don't get ban. . . So the problem is saying it, not doing it, or using ACT.

@NiKr
For difficulty increase : i have 2 friends doing them. (i stopped gamecurrent stormblood and reduced rythm current heavensward so can't really speak by myself about ultimates) they don't feel a real increase of difficulty, ultimate are all really hard, in the same "range of difficulty" But are long tough fight, requesting a near perfection in everything, small time to react, close to no spot to fail, etc etc. Same goes for wow, difficulty is not increasing, some mechanics are harder than others, and make fight more or less difficult. But on both, they reach fights where difficulty change form, not level.

Dolyem

Noaani wrote: »

we want the games meta to be uncovered quickly.

Not we. And also. Why? Why does the meta need to be known quickly? What does that accomplish besides just enabling everyone to fall into one build and just burn through all of the content as fast as possible? Most of the fun from new MMO experiences is figuring stuff out with everyone since everyone is starting at baseline. All you want it seems is "Here, go ahead and take this tool so you can figure out the game as quickly as possible so you can maximize efficiency while blowing through any and all content we made but you can ignore it all for the sake of convenience and speed." No time to think so just make an addon to do it for ya right?
Also, IS's ability to create good class designs doesnt have anything to do with what I am saying. It isn't hard to tell that the first month of most MMO's is usually an awesome experience due to everyone not knowing what to expect. Making that last longer creates a great experience, and it actually helps communities because everyone is helping each other figure stuff out as they go. Figuring out class builds is also a part of that experience, and having people figure it out without easymode addons can be just another fun dynamic that encourages players to work together to figure stuff out.

Dygz

Ashes is a dynamic game that does not have META.
"I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well."
--- Steven

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