Dolyem wrote: » I think there should be a combat log. But I don't think there should be parsers/meters calculating everything for you. If people want to focus entirely on efficiency/METAs, let them think it out and spend time on it. And that includes myself.
NiKr wrote: » I mean, that's a given in any fun game, but I was mainly talking about the tracker people. They'll always find a way to have their way, so these past 120 pages of discussion were pretty much useless But what else is new.
Aerlana wrote: » Limiting tracker to guild perk (idea Nooani defend) will force guild to spend some of their evolution on it (not free) making it a real choice, while guilds without it can take anything else they find more usefull... This remove totally this big problem that exist in FFXIV. (and is for me a real issue)
Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » we want the games meta to be uncovered quickly. Not we. And also. Why? Why does the meta need to be known quickly? What does that accomplish besides just enabling everyone to fall into one build and just burn through all of the content as fast as possible? Most of the fun from new MMO experiences is figuring stuff out with everyone since everyone is starting at baseline. All you want it seems is "Here, go ahead and take this tool so you can figure out the game as quickly as possible so you can maximize efficiency while blowing through any and all content we made but you can ignore it all for the sake of convenience and speed." No time to think so just make an addon to do it for ya right? Also, IS's ability to create good class designs doesnt have anything to do with what I am saying. It isn't hard to tell that the first month of most MMO's is usually an awesome experience due to everyone not knowing what to expect. Making that last longer creates a great experience, and it actually helps communities because everyone is helping each other figure stuff out as they go. Figuring out class builds is also a part of that experience, and having people figure it out without easymode addons can be just another fun dynamic that encourages players to work together to figure stuff out.
Noaani wrote: » we want the games meta to be uncovered quickly.
NiKr wrote: » And if they implement their own tracker, they'd just give those bad actors the tools to make an amazing 3rd party tracker, cause they'd have all the information they need to properly calculate anything they want already in the game.
SongRune wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I think there should be a combat log. But I don't think there should be parsers/meters calculating everything for you. If people want to focus entirely on efficiency/METAs, let them think it out and spend time on it. And that includes myself. You're just asking me to do useless busywork. I need to decide whether my buffs are what my team needs or not. I have DECISIONS to make. When I know how much my team is missing the enemy, and how much damage my Tank is taking, I can START to play the game. I'm here to make decisions, not do arithmetic.
NiKr wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I think there should be a combat log. But I don't think there should be parsers/meters calculating everything for you. If people want to focus entirely on efficiency/METAs, let them think it out and spend time on it. And that includes myself. Yeah, I agree, cause I've been doing this for 12 years in L2. But as have been stated multiple times here, trackers/meters will still be made if there's a combat log. And I'm fairly sure it'd be made if there even wasn't a log. And Intrepid can't do anything about it. And as specifically Noaani's comments point out, there can't even be an assumption of "good faith" when it comes to the tracker ban, because someone somewhere will use them. Someone else will see (or at least assume) that the other person is using them and will use one themselves. And it'll just snowball from there. And then there's people like Azherae who can just extrapolate way more stuff from simply the combat log itself, to the point where some people might accuse her of using a tracker. And this would start the same snowball effect as someone really using one. I wish people didn't want to use them, but this is one of the rare things in mmos where the dev studio can't just prevent people from doing it through any in-game means.
Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » we want the games meta to be uncovered quickly. Not we. And also. Why? Why does the meta need to be known quickly? What does that accomplish besides just enabling everyone to fall into one build and just burn through all of the content as fast as possible? Most of the fun from new MMO experiences is figuring stuff out with everyone since everyone is starting at baseline. All you want it seems is "Here, go ahead and take this tool so you can figure out the game as quickly as possible so you can maximize efficiency while blowing through any and all content we made but you can ignore it all for the sake of convenience and speed." No time to think so just make an addon to do it for ya right? Also, IS's ability to create good class designs doesnt have anything to do with what I am saying. It isn't hard to tell that the first month of most MMO's is usually an awesome experience due to everyone not knowing what to expect. Making that last longer creates a great experience, and it actually helps communities because everyone is helping each other figure stuff out as they go. Figuring out class builds is also a part of that experience, and having people figure it out without easymode addons can be just another fun dynamic that encourages players to work together to figure stuff out. To answer this, we need to look at how a meta is misused, and more importantly, by who. Top end players actually dont care about the meta. They are the most likely group of players to not use it (WoW is the exception here) because they are always looking for better than meta. The group of people that will require all to stick to the meta are a step or two down. These players dont really have their finger on the pulse of the game. They aren't exactly keeping up with things on a monthly basis, let alone a daily basis. They also have a pre-existing bias towards assuming a mono-build meta, because that is the assumption most people make. As such, if they see after a month or two that x build is the meta build for a given primary class (because it is the best one found so far), to them, that is the meta. They will think that is the only acceptable build for that primary class for months, perhaps even years. The worst part of all of this, and the hardest part to fix (indeed, this may never be able to be fixed if we get to this point) is that their bias towards a mono-build meta in the game has been confirmed, and so to them, the game has a mono-build meta. To me, we never want to be at a point where there are only one or two builds for a class (let alone for a primary class) that are considered meta. We want to come out of the gate with no less than 24 viable builds for each primary class, so that there is never any reinforcing of a mono-meta in the game. This will literally be impossible without combat trackers.
NiKr wrote: » [...]
Noaani wrote: » To answer this, we need to look at how a meta is misused, and more importantly, by who.
Dolyem wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I think there should be a combat log. But I don't think there should be parsers/meters calculating everything for you. If people want to focus entirely on efficiency/METAs, let them think it out and spend time on it. And that includes myself. Yeah, I agree, cause I've been doing this for 12 years in L2. But as have been stated multiple times here, trackers/meters will still be made if there's a combat log. And I'm fairly sure it'd be made if there even wasn't a log. And Intrepid can't do anything about it. And as specifically Noaani's comments point out, there can't even be an assumption of "good faith" when it comes to the tracker ban, because someone somewhere will use them. Someone else will see (or at least assume) that the other person is using them and will use one themselves. And it'll just snowball from there. And then there's people like Azherae who can just extrapolate way more stuff from simply the combat log itself, to the point where some people might accuse her of using a tracker. And this would start the same snowball effect as someone really using one. I wish people didn't want to use them, but this is one of the rare things in mmos where the dev studio can't just prevent people from doing it through any in-game means. I get that I guess. But are there no ways to detect these things in game? I am not a code guy so I have no idea how realistic it would be to be able to have a system that alerts when addons/plugins are being used.
Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » we want the games meta to be uncovered quickly. Not we. And also. Why? Why does the meta need to be known quickly? What does that accomplish besides just enabling everyone to fall into one build and just burn through all of the content as fast as possible? Most of the fun from new MMO experiences is figuring stuff out with everyone since everyone is starting at baseline. All you want it seems is "Here, go ahead and take this tool so you can figure out the game as quickly as possible so you can maximize efficiency while blowing through any and all content we made but you can ignore it all for the sake of convenience and speed." No time to think so just make an addon to do it for ya right? Also, IS's ability to create good class designs doesnt have anything to do with what I am saying. It isn't hard to tell that the first month of most MMO's is usually an awesome experience due to everyone not knowing what to expect. Making that last longer creates a great experience, and it actually helps communities because everyone is helping each other figure stuff out as they go. Figuring out class builds is also a part of that experience, and having people figure it out without easymode addons can be just another fun dynamic that encourages players to work together to figure stuff out. To answer this, we need to look at how a meta is misused, and more importantly, by who. Top end players actually dont care about the meta. They are the most likely group of players to not use it (WoW is the exception here) because they are always looking for better than meta. The group of people that will require all to stick to the meta are a step or two down. These players dont really have their finger on the pulse of the game. They aren't exactly keeping up with things on a monthly basis, let alone a daily basis. They also have a pre-existing bias towards assuming a mono-build meta, because that is the assumption most people make. As such, if they see after a month or two that x build is the meta build for a given primary class (because it is the best one found so far), to them, that is the meta. They will think that is the only acceptable build for that primary class for months, perhaps even years. The worst part of all of this, and the hardest part to fix (indeed, this may never be able to be fixed if we get to this point) is that their bias towards a mono-build meta in the game has been confirmed, and so to them, the game has a mono-build meta. To me, we never want to be at a point where there are only one or two builds for a class (let alone for a primary class) that are considered meta. We want to come out of the gate with no less than 24 viable builds for each primary class, so that there is never any reinforcing of a mono-meta in the game. This will literally be impossible without combat trackers. How wouldn't it be possible though? All the trackers do is speed things up as far as I can tell. Not having them doesn't prevent anyone from figuring out the same answer, it just takes more time and testing.
Azherae wrote: » "Being worried about trackers" in a game like Ashes is telegraphing to me that understanding (or confidence in) class design and encounter design is low, given what Ashes is supposed to be. You keep making the same very correct point, but the outcome 'should' be different. If Ashes has a specific design type, it won't be 'no one needs trackers', it would be 'no one cares about them enough to worry about if someone else is using one or not'.
Dolyem wrote: » SongRune wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I think there should be a combat log. But I don't think there should be parsers/meters calculating everything for you. If people want to focus entirely on efficiency/METAs, let them think it out and spend time on it. And that includes myself. You're just asking me to do useless busywork. I need to decide whether my buffs are what my team needs or not. I have DECISIONS to make. When I know how much my team is missing the enemy, and how much damage my Tank is taking, I can START to play the game. I'm here to make decisions, not do arithmetic. You can still figure that all out on your own. Just not instantly
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » "Being worried about trackers" in a game like Ashes is telegraphing to me that understanding (or confidence in) class design and encounter design is low, given what Ashes is supposed to be. You keep making the same very correct point, but the outcome 'should' be different. If Ashes has a specific design type, it won't be 'no one needs trackers', it would be 'no one cares about them enough to worry about if someone else is using one or not'. I'm trying to stay as cautiously neutral as possible, with a tint of negativity to stop myself from falling into hype too much. There have been countless games (let alone mmos) with countless promises. And veeeeery rarely have those promises become reality. Even rarer in mmos. And then we consider the sheer scale of what Intrepid is trying to do and the scale of promises they've made, and I become full with doubt of whether they can truly achieve their goal. As I keep saying, I dearly hope they do, but I'd rather complain about the negative possibilities now and then be super happy that I was wrong, than try and believe each and every Steven's word (as Dygz quite often does) and then be disappointed when those plans fall through. As I've stated before, Ashes is the only mmo for me that has even the slightest potential of really being my "final" mmo. It has the exact design choices I like, it doesn't have the corporate greed that ruined my favorite mmo and it has a fairly headstrong leader that doesn't seem to budge under the general pressure (at least so far and from what I've seen). This whole game is almost exactly what I would've done if I had the millions to fund it. And all of that would only make it that much more painful if the game completely dies for one reason or the other. Which is why I doubt Intrepid's convictions, I doubt their promises and I doubt its success. It's a defensive mechanism
Dygz wrote: » Um. META = Most Efficient Tactics Available. That's when people tell you that you have to use a specific cookie-cutter class, a specific cookie-cutter build and specific class abilities in order to defeat the boss.
Azherae wrote: » Ah yes but then you have the "Option Select" as we like to call it. Let's take a random player that says: "I don't want trackers because I think it will make people figure out the Meta much faster!" And I respond "What meta? This is Ashes of Creation." The fact that this person believes that Ashes COULD have a Meta that could be damaged by a tracker existing, means that Ashes didn't achieve the level intended. Why are they/you playing? If the argument for the tracker is just 'I just really want another average MMO to play and trackers ruin average MMOs, don't ruin this for me with your fast-tracked Meta bullshit', then that person is completely fine. I will never even want to use a tracker for Ashes, I will not be playing. So for me, it's easy. Either trackers might as well be allowed because the game will be so good (and the better it is, the more GOOD they do), or the game is average and I have no opinion on their existence, and from what I gather, after a few months, neither would you.
Dolyem wrote: » I get that I guess. But are there no ways to detect these things in game? I am not a code guy so I have no idea how realistic it would be to be able to have a system that alerts when addons/plugins are being used.
NiKr wrote: » So what are the chances that Steven is somewhat like me in thinking "why would you need trackers? All I've heard from a lot of other people is that they've had bad experiences with them and that FF14 is against them. And all content I've cleared in my past never needed you to parse out your dps to clear it". And with Steven's word being the final one when it comes to design paths, what are the chances that, even if someone on the team (mainly people from the EQ team) said that trackers are fine and maybe even great for the kind of pve Steven has promised, Steven just says "no, I see no point in them and they allegedly only bring negativity". This would explain why there hasn't been a concrete reason for forbidding their use and the overall negative stance on them from him. And considering that Steven is the main face we see when we ask our questions, we wouldn't really know whether there's anyone in Intrepid that would wholeheartedly support trackers (iirc Margaret mentioned them in the past in a somewhat positive light?).
