How Strong is the Secondary Archetype?

So I've read the wiki, and read about the augments. But I'm still wondering, how much does the secondary archetype affect our build?
For example, if my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?
How far can you bend your primary archetype? If your primary is Tank, will you be shoehorned into playing a supportive/tanky role? Or can you choose a secondary that will allow you to deal more damage and make your role more of a heavy damage dealer?
Disregarding items/enchants

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Ironhope

NiKr wrote: »

I wouldn't know either way, cause I don't care about that specific combination, nor do I really care for pure RP.

I forgot to mention that I like the gameplay style as well
(resilient heavy armour, off-heal abilities, physical + magic melee dps hybrid) so it's not something purely RP.

NiKr wrote: »

Ah, so your issue is just with the first 25 lvls. Got it.

I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?

Dygz

Rude is not the same thing as aggressive.
I am nice, but not polite.

Secondary roles are not "a different matter" when the OP literally asks "If my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?"
and also asks if it's possible for their Tank/x to deal more heavy damage/dps with Rogue as a secondary.

Ironhope wrote: »

Sure, in the same sense a cleric/cleric with the right gear combination, buffs, etc can be a type of tank in certain circumstances.

But neither the cleric/cleric under the right cirumstances nor the x/tank under the right circumstances have a tank role in the trinity system.

It is not at all in the same sense.
A Cleric/Tank literally is a Tank and can use tanking abilities in the form of augments, rather than Active Skills. Just don't expect them to out tank the Tank/x in an 8-person group.

Azherae

Ironhope wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wouldn't know either way, cause I don't care about that specific combination, nor do I really care for pure RP.

I forgot to mention that I like the gameplay style as well
(resilient heavy armour, off-heal abilities, physical + magic melee dps hybrid) so it's not something purely RP.

NiKr wrote: »

Ah, so your issue is just with the first 25 lvls. Got it.

I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?

Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.

My thanks to OP for being willing to sponsor this instance, since we who have run it before get a debuff to Engagement and Credibility just for being here. Shoutouts to SirChancelot for bringing the Echoes Of The Past item to lessen that debuff.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?

A few days of one "class" and then years of your preferred one - no that doesn't seem the least bit unfair to me.

Ironhope

Dygz wrote: »

I am nice, but not polite.

Ridiculing others (while ironically being wrong yourself) is not being nice.

Dygz wrote: »

Secondary roles are not "a different matter"

Considering I was talking about primary role and you came talking about secondary roles, I'd say it is.

Dygz wrote: »

when the OP literally asks

You were replying to me talking about primary role, you were not replying to the OP.

Dygz wrote: »

It is not at all in the same sense.
A Cleric/Tank literally is a Tank

As far as the trinity role system is concerned?

Ironhope

NiKr wrote: »

A few days of one "class" and then years of your preferred one - no that doesn't seem the least bit unfair to me.

(Will probably be closer to months for me who plays 2-3 hours, some days)

To me it really is, I'm basically being denied what I want to play for the first 25 levels, for the part of the game which is most new, most magical, most charming.

That really sucks for me.

At this point in development I doubt anything can change this.

But who knows, maybe 2h heavy armor dps-talent cleric with fighter as secondary archetype stomps lol.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

That really sucks for me.

If this system grinds your gears this much or if you are not planning on playing the game for years to come (at your scale that being decades of your preferred class) - guess this is not the game for you.

Dygz

Ironhope wrote: »

Ridiculing others (while ironically being wrong yourself) is not being nice.

LMAO
I laugh in the face of absurdity.
Nice; but not polite.

Ironhope wrote: »

You were replying to me talking about primary role, you were not replying to the OP.

I was replying to you... in reference to the OP's topic.
In order to clarify - especially for the OP.

Ironhope wrote: »

As far as the trinity role system is concerned?

Yes. The entire purpose of having Secondary Archetypes is to allow players to move their primary Trinity role closer to a secondary Trinity role. Precisely so that we are not stuck with just one Trinity role for the rest of the game.

Ironhope

NiKr wrote: »

If this system grinds your gears this much or if you are not planning on playing the game for years to come (at your scale that being decades of your preferred class) - guess this is not the game for you.

Pointing out a notable design flaw (it doesn't only affect people who want to be a crusader, but also those who want to be a death knight, warlock and many other classical, base fantasies - gameplay styles) is pointing out a notable design flaw.

What I do or how I feel is irrelevant.

The flaw will still be a flaw and it's going to affect me and loads of people who will want to play X but will be forced to play something notable different for weeks/a month+.

If its really that important to you to know how I will react/deal with the issue, well, simple.

I will just go for the casual experience and since I enjoy leveling and won't be in any hurry I will just level a fighter-->highblade and a cleric-->templar at the same time and see what I like more.

I've never been the kind to go

over a game, that would be just stupid

I will take the game for what it is just like I've done with every game before and that will be that.

But since my feedback has been asked for many times, explicitly and politely and I really like what the devs have been doing so far, I feel like me answering and giving my feedback is only fair.

And this is my feedback: I really think the class system could have been better designed. It will be a bitter pill to swallow for for all the people who will want to play warlock, death knight, crusader, necromancer, etc to play something else for so long.

That's not even the biggest problem I see with the system either way. My greatest fear (at least in part justified by what we've seen and heard so far) is that Intrepid will take the easy but bad route out of the issue and the secondary archetypes will provide little more than a few visual and minor stat changes (so basically really boring stuff).
But alas, that's off-topic and not worth going into, at least until alpha2 comes out and sheds some light on the matter.

I mean, I really like the idea of combining classes.... but I feel a more gradual and fluid system would have been better.

Maybe a diablo style talent tree system where you slowly create whatever type of character you want (with the colossal talent tree having a holy magic branch, a melee branch, a death branch, a caster branch, and by combining them slowly and organically you get what you want)

https://preview.redd.it/4iyi967kouu51.jpg?width=1731&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b5a607c84a37983a75cc51d4466d479b30625bd0

But they will realistically not change anything at this point.

So yeah, alpha 2, can't wait for you (late 2023 tm).

Ironhope

Azherae wrote: »

Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.

I agree it's a ressurected topic and I agree we should wait till alpha2 or at least a major dev update on the topic.
Didn't say otherwise Az.

Ludullu

Ironhope wrote: »

That's not even the biggest problem I see with the system either way. My greatest fear is that Intrepid will take the easy but bad route out of the issue and the secondary archetypes will provide little more than a few visual and minor stat changes (so basically really boring stuff).
But alas, that's off-topic and not worth going into, at least until alpha2 comes out and sheds some light on the matter.

I'm almost betting that this will be the case. I can hope all I want that augments will somehow be these amazing changes to our skills and their effects, but I'm fairly sure it'll never be that, so I'd rather just prepare for a barebones archetype gameplay w/ barely any changes to it after the class acquisition.

And the feedback is completely fine, but considering that we're 5 years into development, drastically changing the whole class system would either delay the release even more than it already has been or just make another NW out of Ashes. And that is why I said that the game might not fit your preferences.

SirChancelot

Azherae wrote: »

Ironhope wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wouldn't know either way, cause I don't care about that specific combination, nor do I really care for pure RP.

I forgot to mention that I like the gameplay style as well
(resilient heavy armour, off-heal abilities, physical + magic melee dps hybrid) so it's not something purely RP.

NiKr wrote: »

Ah, so your issue is just with the first 25 lvls. Got it.

I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?

Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.

My thanks to OP for being willing to sponsor this instance, since we who have run it before get a debuff to Engagement and Credibility just for being here. Shoutouts to SirChancelot for bringing the Echoes Of The Past item to lessen that debuff.

Here to support

Azherae

Ironhope wrote: »

I agree it's a ressurected topic and I agree we should wait till alpha2 or at least a major dev update on the topic.
Didn't say otherwise Az.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I feel just as strongly about this as you do, and I agree with you entirely about it being 'unfair' to have to play 25 levels of something you don't necessarily gel with before you can even start transforming it.

Given the type of person I am, your response is reasonable, just letting you know that on this front, I'm with you entirely, and continue to hope that Heavy Armor DPS Cleric works for you early on.

Judeth

SirChancelot wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.

My thanks to OP for being willing to sponsor this instance, since we who have run it before get a debuff to Engagement and Credibility just for being here. Shoutouts to SirChancelot for bringing the Echoes Of The Past item to lessen that debuff.

Here to support

I am currently bed ridden, and truly appreciate the risks taken to be here. Now I can see a glimpse of hope in the future.

Kingkan47

Ironhope wrote: »

What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game.

In regards to how big of a difference the secondary archetype makes, we just don't know.

Every single quote we got is highly interpretable (while respecting the quotes to the letter you could design either a secondary archetype that brings huge differences or that brings no real ones, but rather cosmetic changes).

We will only really know when Alpha 2 hits (which could take even more than a year from now).

The difference the secondary archetype brings could be as massive as being the equivalent or near-equivalent of a wow spec (while not changing your role, such as making you a tank from a support or something like that) or simply being a cosmetic pack combined with some minor buffs/quality of life improvements.

Personally I hope they will take some risks and go for the more complex path, because if they don't, they will disappoint a lot of people.

Hey I was wondering on how likely you guys think it is for the rouge augment to include stealth for other classes. for example a Shadowmancer(Mage/Rouge) would be able to stealth albeit potentially at limited capabilities when compared to the rouge archetype.

Azherae

Kingkan47 wrote: »

Ironhope wrote: »

What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game.

In regards to how big of a difference the secondary archetype makes, we just don't know.

Every single quote we got is highly interpretable (while respecting the quotes to the letter you could design either a secondary archetype that brings huge differences or that brings no real ones, but rather cosmetic changes).

We will only really know when Alpha 2 hits (which could take even more than a year from now).

The difference the secondary archetype brings could be as massive as being the equivalent or near-equivalent of a wow spec (while not changing your role, such as making you a tank from a support or something like that) or simply being a cosmetic pack combined with some minor buffs/quality of life improvements.

Personally I hope they will take some risks and go for the more complex path, because if they don't, they will disappoint a lot of people.

Hey I was wondering on how likely you guys think it is for the rouge augment to include stealth for other classes. for example a Shadowmancer(Mage/Rouge) would be able to stealth albeit potentially at limited capabilities when compared to the rouge archetype.

It is strongly expected by most people.

Dygz

I'm expecting a Rogue Stealth School.

SirChancelot

Dygz wrote: »

I'm expecting a Rogue Stealth School.

I'm about it, but I wonder what kind of janky things can come from that.

Sneaky stealth tanks pulls? Hidden healers in battlegrounds? Sounds entertaining.

PenguinPaladin

I wonder how "counter stealth" is going to be implemented.

You cant have a good stealth system unless there is some way to fight against it.

Warth

Long-Term Stealth for Rogue primaries
Short-Term Stealth for Rogue secondaries like

Stealth during a charge
Stealth for X-Seconds after Blinking for a Mage
Roll + Stealth for a Ranger
Short term stealth windows after using certain skills
Bonus effect from certain abilities when used out of stealth

Stuff like that.

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